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Could Panpsychism lead to the idea of God

LOOKING

Member
After discussing this topic in numerous atheist forums, I have found it to be one of the strongest arguments leading to the idea of God.

This discussion begins with the problem of consciousness, specifically addressing how to explain human consciousness in a material world. The materialist explanation for consciousness posits that the brain and its physical processes account for all functions of our consciousness. However, there is one aspect of the mind that this explanation fails to address: the concept of "qualia." Qualia refer to the first-person experience of all brain activity, which is subjective, personal, and impossible to transfer.

To grasp the concept of qualia and why it is so challenging (if not impossible) for science to address, I recommend reading Thomas Nagel's famous paper, "What Is It Like to Be a Bat?"

The fundamental issue here is that materialism assumes that matter is inert—matter itself cannot experience anything. Yet, it also asserts that we are made entirely of matter. This leads to a contradiction: if we are made of matter and matter experiences nothing, how is it possible for us to experience our own existence?

While materialism can perfectly explain brain function, it cannot account for the first-person experience that accompanies it. In other words, materialism predicts a world of "philosophical zombies" (see David Chalmers)—beings who are identical to us in behavior and brain function but lack any first-person experience. However, this is not what we observe in reality, indicating that something is missing in the materialistic description.

This is where things get interesting. When materialism attempts to imbue matter with properties that allow for the emergence of first-person experience, either as an inherent property of matter or as an emergent property, it inevitably leads to the idea of panpsychism—the notion that consciousness is a fundamental aspect of all matter.

At this point, atheism begins to falter, as logic and reason lead directly to the idea that the universe, far from being devoid of consciousness except for us, is instead filled with various forms of consciousness. This includes the possibility of a universal consciousness that encompasses all others. While this idea does not exactly align with the Christian concept of God—which I believe is the correct one—it causes many atheists to reject this line of reasoning, often leaving them unable to offer any alternative that does not involve serious logical flaws, such as the problem of hard emergence (see David Chalmers for clarification).

Of course, panpsychism has its own problems, but it is far less problematic than classical materialism when it comes to explaining the origin of qualia and represents a step toward the idea of God.

What do you think?
 
As a Christian you KNOW there is a God , right ? Obvious fact for me :) .
Absolutely, and believing in God is not just an intellectual decision—there is far more to it, and I could speak at length about that.

However, from an intellectual standpoint, many people might encounter fallacious arguments that could create doubts in their minds. Intellect is great, and reason is a gift, but it has its own dark side.

This is why I find the argument about panpsychism so important. When you examine materialism in detail, it starts to make less sense, especially when you consider the most obvious fact of all: our own experience of things.

When I discovered that this question is, in fact, a serious philosophical dilemma today, I realized that something is missing in our current understanding.
 
What do you think?

I've heard Micheal Ruse articulate a form of panpsychism which he says he holds, but his version was rather scrambled (though I'm sure it all made good sense in his own mind). As best as I could understand Ruse, it seemed that his panpsychism would lead rather directly to some sort of panentheism, not to the biblical conception of God.

In any case, when I consider the idea of qualia and the profound challenge consciousness is to an entirely materialistic viewpoint, I think also of Plantinga's skepticism about truth-claims from purely materialistic (and naturalistic) conceptions of reality and so find myself utterly dissatisfied with a materialistic explanation of how things are.

More than any philosophical argument for God, my daily, life-changing, personal experience of Him is the ground upon which my trust in Him rests.
 
After discussing this topic in numerous atheist forums, I have found it to be one of the strongest arguments leading to the idea of God.

This discussion begins with the problem of consciousness, specifically addressing how to explain human consciousness in a material world. The materialist explanation for consciousness posits that the brain and its physical processes account for all functions of our consciousness. However, there is one aspect of the mind that this explanation fails to address: the concept of "qualia." Qualia refer to the first-person experience of all brain activity, which is subjective, personal, and impossible to transfer.

To grasp the concept of qualia and why it is so challenging (if not impossible) for science to address, I recommend reading Thomas Nagel's famous paper, "What Is It Like to Be a Bat?"

The fundamental issue here is that materialism assumes that matter is inert—matter itself cannot experience anything. Yet, it also asserts that we are made entirely of matter. This leads to a contradiction: if we are made of matter and matter experiences nothing, how is it possible for us to experience our own existence?

While materialism can perfectly explain brain function, it cannot account for the first-person experience that accompanies it. In other words, materialism predicts a world of "philosophical zombies" (see David Chalmers)—beings who are identical to us in behavior and brain function but lack any first-person experience. However, this is not what we observe in reality, indicating that something is missing in the materialistic description.

This is where things get interesting. When materialism attempts to imbue matter with properties that allow for the emergence of first-person experience, either as an inherent property of matter or as an emergent property, it inevitably leads to the idea of panpsychism—the notion that consciousness is a fundamental aspect of all matter.

At this point, atheism begins to falter, as logic and reason lead directly to the idea that the universe, far from being devoid of consciousness except for us, is instead filled with various forms of consciousness. This includes the possibility of a universal consciousness that encompasses all others. While this idea does not exactly align with the Christian concept of God—which I believe is the correct one—it causes many atheists to reject this line of reasoning, often leaving them unable to offer any alternative that does not involve serious logical flaws, such as the problem of hard emergence (see David Chalmers for clarification).

Of course, panpsychism has its own problems, but it is far less problematic than classical materialism when it comes to explaining the origin of qualia and represents a step toward the idea of God.

What do you think?
Hi LOOKING and welcome to the forums. In all honesty, your style of writing is a bit above my pay grade so I'm probably not going to be much help in answering your questions but I hope you find what you're LOOKING for. :biggrin2
 
Hi LOOKING and welcome to the forums. In all honesty, your style of writing is a bit above my pay grade so I'm probably not going to be much help in answering your questions but I hope you find what you're LOOKING for. :biggrin2

I come from forums where atheists often unleash all their arguments. You know what I'm talking about—for example, the famous "Where is your evidence?" and similar challenges. I recognize that many of these arguments are often fallacious. For instance, "Where is your evidence?" can be misleading because the discussion isn't about the existence of evidence but rather the interpretation of that evidence. So, claiming there is no evidence is just a personal interpretation that depends on what one expects to find. You know, things like that... because I like to think.

But when it comes to religion, what truly matters is not the head but the heart, because religion should serve to heal the heart. This is why some scientific studies show that religious people tend to be less depressed, more psychologically stable, and generally happier than non-believers. This is particularly interesting because it suggests that when people face problems, they often turn to religion for stability. Once they find that stability and resolve their issues, they may forget about religion and then create problems for themselves again.

More than any philosophical argument for God, my daily, life-changing, personal experience of Him is the ground upon which my trust in Him rests.

Exactly, this is the key. When you observe the events in your life, you start to see that there is a reason behind them that isn’t immediately obvious but suggests some kind of intelligence and, beyond that, some kind of meaning. These events make sense on a deeply personal level, which is astonishing when you think about it, yet also feels natural. Life itself is a lesson.
 
Exactly, this is the key. When you observe the events in your life, you start to see that there is a reason behind them that isn’t immediately obvious but suggests some kind of intelligence and, beyond that, some kind of meaning. These events make sense on a deeply personal level, which is astonishing when you think about it, yet also feels natural. Life itself is a lesson.

It's actually, for me, more than just the arrangement of life events into a God-revealing pattern but the "the Spirit bearing witness with my spirit" that I'm a child of God (Romans 8:16). Alvin Plantinga talks of this in his book "Warranted Christian Belief" pointing out that my direct, personal, daily experience of God in the Person of the Holy Spirit is entirely sufficient to properly ground/justify a belief in God. The Spirit convicts me (John 16:8), teaches me (John 14:26; John 16:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10-16), strengthens me (Ephesians 3:16; Romans 8:13; Philippians 2:13, etc.), comforts me (2 Corinthians 1:3-4) and transforms me (Galatians 5:22-23; Romans 8:29; 2 Corinthians 3:18) and in doing all these things demonstrates both that God is real and that I am one of His.
 
Alvin Plantinga talks of this in his book "Warranted Christian Belief" pointing out that my direct, personal, daily experience of God in the Person of the Holy Spirit is entirely sufficient to properly ground/justify a belief in God.
How do we know it's the Holy Spirit? I mean... it’s so easy to deceive ourselves and so easy to be deceived. So how can we distinguish?
 
How do we know it's the Holy Spirit? I mean... it’s so easy to deceive ourselves and so easy to be deceived. So how can we distinguish?
Hi Looking,
Indeed, how do we know it's the Holy Spirit.
We don't.
Many come on these forums and profess to be Christian and then continue to explain a religion that they themselves have manufactured...according to them from reading the bible and having the Holy Spirit explain it to them.
This is problematic, of course, because if it WAS indeed the Holy Spirit, should He not be teaching each and every one of us the same faith? I think so.
I know it's the Holy Spirit telling me something when it ALIGNS with the person of Jesus...with His teachings, with His character and with the ever present: What would Jesus think/do?

As to panpsychism, it's interesting that many years ago the question was pondered as to whether or not plants feel pain.
And no closer to knowing the answer - let alone if rocks have consciousness. I think we'll have to wait and see if we EVER could explain what consciousness is. We're far from this right now although the question has been looming since at least the '90s.

I agree with you that this is a great explanation for God.
Material is easy to see.
The transcendent is not easy to see, but becoming more prevalent.
To say nothing of the WORD of DNA....
Words have a beginning, don't they?
They don't just appear.

I'd say the era of the big atheists is over.
They've taken much away from the general public and have given them nothing in return.
Dawkins and Harris have attested to this. Dillanunty started some kind of movement to fill in the void, but I don't know anything about it.

OK.

Just to say that this is an incredibly interesting topic.
This topic is also being followed in Italy, but, as usual, more so in the US.
Welcome to the forum.
 
How do we know it's the Holy Spirit? I mean... it’s so easy to deceive ourselves and so easy to be deceived. So how can we distinguish?

A great question! One I have been asked a number of times over the years. As you'd expect, the answer is given to us in God's word. The work of the Holy Spirit in the believer is distinguishable from mere human psychological (and thus fleshly) effort and from worldly or demonic counterfeits by way of the following:

Conviction. (John 16:8; Revelation 2-3)

The Holy Spirit's conviction of the believer is aimed at fulfilling the will and way of God in the life of the believer. This is true of all of the work of the Spirit. What are God's priorities in His interactions with His children? Well, He wants them to:

Know Him. (2 Timothy 1:12b; Romans 10:14; Philippians 3:7-10)
Trust Him. (Hebrews 11:6)
Love Him. (Matthew 2:36-38; 1 Corinthians 13:1-3)
Submit to Him. (James 4:7-10; Romans 6:13; Romans 12:1)
Be holy before Him. (1 Peter 1:15-16; Hebrews 12:14b; 2 Corinthians 6:14-18; Ephesians 5:1-13)
Enjoy Him. (Psalm 36:7-9; Psalm 16:11; Ephesians 3:20; John 10:10; Revelation 3:20; 1 John 1:3)
Glorify Him. (1 Corinthians 10:31; 1 Peter 4:11)

This is, I think, the logical order of things as God works in the life of His children, culminating in His glorification. The Holy Spirit works in the believer in accomplishment of these things.

How does his conviction of the believer differ from the pangs of conscience any atheist might feel? Well, when the Spirit convicts God's child, it is to the end that they would be moved toward God in reconciliation so that fellowship with Him might be restored (Romans 5:8-11; 2 Corinthians 5:18-22; Colossians 1:21-22). It's in the "direction of travel" that the convicting work of the Spirit differs from the pangs of a violated conscience that anyone might feel. When it is the mere prick of conscience a person is enduring, they act as Adam and Eve did in Eden, moving reflexively away from God in guilt, shame and isolation. But, when the Spirit is convicting the born-again believer, he gives to them a desire to be restored to fellowship with God. Of course, the Spirit uses the feelings of guiltiness and shame that contravening the "Law of God written on our hearts" (i.e our conscience) produces, but always to the end described above. This doesn't happen for the atheist, or Buddhist, or Hindu; nor is reconciliation with God what the devil's counterfeit of Spirit-conviction will accomplish (for obvious reasons).

The Spirit's convicting work also illuminates the believer's mind and heart to the truth of things about themselves, their sinful desires, motives and thinking, that generate corresponding sinful conduct. "Search me, O God, and know my heart; try me and know my thoughts, and see if there be any wicked way in me," the Psalmist wrote (Psalm 139:23). This searching and trying is part of the convicting/illuminating work of the Spirit who exposes to us the truth about the self-deception in which we always engage when we sin. This revelatory work of the Spirit is entirely contrary to what the devil desires to encourage in the believer. And no atheist, however inwardly reflective, will ever frame things within themselves as the Holy Spirit will, placing their thinking and behavior within a spiritual - that is, God-centered - context, first and foremost.

The Psalmist asked God to inspect his heart and mind because he knew that the normal human condition is one of profound self-deception. Only divine Light can expose the core lies that bring us into sin; that Light is given to us in both the word of God and in the Person of the Holy Spirit who illuminates it to us (Psalm 119:105, 130; 1 Corinthians 2:10-16). Every day, as I submit to the Spirit's control and work, he reveals to me my self-deceptions, convicting me of attitudes, desires and thoughts that, had he not, I would have readily and unquestioningly embraced. Many times, this Spirit-conviction is quite...uncomfortable and intrusive, invading selfish moments with a quiet and yet stunning force, clarifying my true motives and thinking to me. It can be very hard to accept this conviction, which is, strangely, one of the marks that it isn't self-generated. If I don't accept the convicting work of the Spirit, the immediate sense of relational fracture between myself and God is quite sharp! And my rejection of the conviction of the Spirit always leads to the outcomes promised in God's word.

I could go on describing each work of the Spirit from Scripture and personal experience, but, if I did, my post would be enormous. In any case, for each of the things the Spirit does in the life of every genuine believer, there is the same distinctiveness, delineated in Scripture for those who look for it. Unfortunately, few pastors/teachers are delving into this area in a carefully biblical way. Mostly, they adopt either an academic, ritual-based, institutional sort of thinking about interaction with God or the nutty hyper-charismatic stuff typical of Benny Hinn, or Todd White, or Mike Bickles.

I've been discipling men for nearly thirty years now and your question is one that is often asked. And so, over the years, my study of this question has expanded and deepened and my answer to it, at this point, could fill a book. As far as I can see, in God's word, life in the Spirit is neither institutional nor hyper-charismatic but, instead, characterized by the things I noted to you in my last post.

Anyway, I hope this is somewhat helpful.
 
Can we say that the Holy Spirit is the "experience" that gives meaning to words?
I don't like to think of the Holy Spirit as an experience.
There will be experiences - especially when a Christian is new.
I'm sure we've all had some that we'll remember forever...

and maybe not...

Some Christians depend too much on experience.
I'd say that the Holy Spirit is exactly what the bible tells us He is.
He's a paraclete.....He walks with us.
He's a comforter....He calms us when we feel we've done something wrong.
He convicts us.....He lets us know WHEN we've done something wrong.

He's a power in us that helps us to avoid sin...
He helps us to win this sin nature of ours that is in submission but will never totally disappear.

So, basically, I don't think we should be looking for an experience...even if by that you mean that the experience somehow confirms what we "feel" in our Christianity.

Or, you might mean something different - not sure.
 
How do we know it's the Holy Spirit? I mean... it’s so easy to deceive ourselves and so easy to be deceived. So how can we distinguish?

The Holy Spirit is a Person - albeit, a divine one - possessing characteristics typical of personhood (save, a physical body): consciousness, self-awareness, free agency, etc. He can be grieved (Ephesians 4:30), who teaches and reminds (John 14:26; 1 Cor. 2:13), who speaks (Acts 8:29; 13:2), who makes decisions (Acts 15:28), who can be lied to (Acts 5:3, 4), who has a mind (Romans 8:26, 27), and so on. And so, given that the Holy Spirit is a Person, it stands to reason that we can have a direct, personal and concrete experience of him, as we do of human persons. Thus it is that we read in Scripture that Jesus invites people to open the "door" of their heart to him so that he may enter (in the Person of the Holy Spirit - Titus 3:5; 1 John 4:13; John 14:26; Romans 8:9-12) and "dine" with them, which is to say "have personal, direct, concrete communion with them," as happens typically between people over a shared meal. In other words, the Holy Spirit will have fellowship with us, if we'll agree to such a thing.

2 Corinthians 13:14
14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.


1 John 1:3
3 ...indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.


The fellowship we have with God in and through the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:9), is constituted of those things I outlined in an earlier post: conviction, illumination, strengthening, comfort, transformation, etc. . All of these things we experience, discernibly and personally, as I've already explained in regards to conviction.

But, just to be clear: Scripture never says the Holy Spirit will be a "still, small voice" in our minds that we have to attend expensive weekend conferences to learn to hear; God's word never says the Holy Spirit will throw a person to the ground and cause them to have convulsive hysterics (aka "slain in the Spirit"); the Bible never indicates that the Holy Spirit will make us spiritually "drunk," or "high," or that we can "soak" in him as though he were a hot tub; no verse in Scripture says we can feel the Holy Spirit as tingle upon our skin, or a sensation of heat all over our body. These are "experiences" borrowed from ancient pagan religions, which are demonic.

It is the life and work of the Holy Spirit within a person that, I think, is the basis upon which they can be confident they are truly born-again. But, oh, how reluctant some believers are to suggest such a thing - most often because they don't themselves have such an experience of him! As soon as it is pointed out that there is a concrete, objective, biblical criteria by which to ascertain the reality of one's conversion, the false converts crowded into the Church run for cover - or they get very angry and deny any such criteria exists. But it does.

Romans 8:9
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
 
The FOOL says "theres no God"!!
Athiests THEMSELVES are walking talking living breathing eating sleeping EVIDENCE for God. Their actions prove the Bible right day in and day out. Actually, if you think about it, EVERYONES ACTIONS prove the Bible right. There is no fact that contradicts God's Word. If God says it's so, it's so.


Just a few hours ago i had a mini-debate with a sucidal pyromaniac (or so he calls himself) athiest on Reddit. https://i.postimg.cc/1XKz7b57/2024-09-02-02-30-12.png
All bro could do was prove Psalm 14:1 and Romans 1:20-24 right again and again. He was unable to refute or even rebut my points.
All he did threw cussing and anger at me. No logic whatsoever. I was chill, cool, and logical, and showered him with Biblical Christian love, and forgave him.

What a difference in our characters! Bro even called me "ret..ed b.st..", how hypocritical because he is the one illogically attacking the Gospel truth, cursing like a frenzied sailor, and namecalling/ad hominemming me.

Please pray for him, he needs Jesus ASAP 🙏
 
The materialist and atheist stances are sometimes very difficult to refute. On the other hand, there is an army of people debating in forums who are trained to deceive others with fallacies and sophisms. They tend to use well-designed strategies, such as not having a clearly defined position so that you can't attack them. They also resort to personal attacks, peer pressure, and similar tactics.

Moreover, there is something very important we should take into account, which Heisenberg perfectly described when he said:

"The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass, God is waiting for you."

There are numerous factors contributing to a very dangerous spiritual situation today
 
The materialist and atheist stances are sometimes very difficult to refute.
My experience has been different. Very easy imho.

I like to employ a strategy called "STRAIGHT THROUGH THE CORE". I attack/question their core beliefs/assumptions and expose why they believe/think/act a certain way, and show them Bible verses that accurately describe their behavior.

Basically it rips at the core of their belief, attacks the foundations.

Sometimes I use behavior comparison, where I compare the actions, thought, and speaking mannerisms/styles and use that as evidence for my side/against theirs. An example of my usage of that strategy, i used on Pencil on reddit.

There are many cases where it's not just about evidence, but HOW you deliver the evidence, and what methods you go use to attack/expose the opposing ideas, and/or defending/backing/supporting true ideas.
 
The materialist and atheist stances are sometimes very difficult to refute. On the other hand, there is an army of people debating in forums who are trained to deceive others with fallacies and sophisms. They tend to use well-designed strategies, such as not having a clearly defined position so that you can't attack them. They also resort to personal attacks, peer pressure, and similar tactics.

Moreover, there is something very important we should take into account, which Heisenberg perfectly described when he said:

"The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass, God is waiting for you."

There are numerous factors contributing to a very dangerous spiritual situation today
Bottom line for me is , there is no reason to debate you give them God's word ! The atheist's want you to debate on their turf , don't fall for it . Let the Word speak to them , not by our power but by the power of God ! As Christians we wield the sword of truth .


12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
 
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