Could Panpsychism lead to the idea of God

  • CFN has a new look, using the Eagle as our theme

    "I bore you on eagle's wings, and brought you to Myself" (Exodus 19:4)

    More new themes will be coming in the future!

  • Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?

    Join For His Glory for a discussion on how

    https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/

  • Read the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ?

    Read through this brief blog, and receive eternal salvation as the free gift of God

    /blog/the-gospel

  • CFN welcomes a new contributing member!

    Please welcome Beetow to our Christian community.

    Blessings in Christ, and we pray you enjoy being a member here

  • Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need

    https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/

  • Have questions about the Christian faith?

    Come ask us what's on your mind in Questions and Answers

    https://christianforums.net/forums/questions-and-answers/

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

LOOKING

Member
Aug 28, 2024
43
21
41
SPAIN
Gender
Male
After discussing this topic in numerous atheist forums, I have found it to be one of the strongest arguments leading to the idea of God.

This discussion begins with the problem of consciousness, specifically addressing how to explain human consciousness in a material world. The materialist explanation for consciousness posits that the brain and its physical processes account for all functions of our consciousness. However, there is one aspect of the mind that this explanation fails to address: the concept of "qualia." Qualia refer to the first-person experience of all brain activity, which is subjective, personal, and impossible to transfer.

To grasp the concept of qualia and why it is so challenging (if not impossible) for science to address, I recommend reading Thomas Nagel's famous paper, "What Is It Like to Be a Bat?"

The fundamental issue here is that materialism assumes that matter is inert—matter itself cannot experience anything. Yet, it also asserts that we are made entirely of matter. This leads to a contradiction: if we are made of matter and matter experiences nothing, how is it possible for us to experience our own existence?

While materialism can perfectly explain brain function, it cannot account for the first-person experience that accompanies it. In other words, materialism predicts a world of "philosophical zombies" (see David Chalmers)—beings who are identical to us in behavior and brain function but lack any first-person experience. However, this is not what we observe in reality, indicating that something is missing in the materialistic description.

This is where things get interesting. When materialism attempts to imbue matter with properties that allow for the emergence of first-person experience, either as an inherent property of matter or as an emergent property, it inevitably leads to the idea of panpsychism—the notion that consciousness is a fundamental aspect of all matter.

At this point, atheism begins to falter, as logic and reason lead directly to the idea that the universe, far from being devoid of consciousness except for us, is instead filled with various forms of consciousness. This includes the possibility of a universal consciousness that encompasses all others. While this idea does not exactly align with the Christian concept of God—which I believe is the correct one—it causes many atheists to reject this line of reasoning, often leaving them unable to offer any alternative that does not involve serious logical flaws, such as the problem of hard emergence (see David Chalmers for clarification).

Of course, panpsychism has its own problems, but it is far less problematic than classical materialism when it comes to explaining the origin of qualia and represents a step toward the idea of God.

What do you think?
 
Bottom line for me is , there is no reason to debate you give them God's word ! The atheist's want you to debate on their turf , don't fall for it . Let the Word speak to them , not by our power but by the power of God ! As Christians we wield the sword of truth .


12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Ah, but then theres the freewill factor.
I suggest using Bible verses that accurately describe them like Romans 1:20-24 and Psalm 14:1.

If you pound them with "TO THE CORE", behavior comparison, and the bad fruits athiesm produces, and expose the strawmen athiests make (Exposing that their side makes many logical errors and you barely do), they are likelier to accept.
 
I believe God has a simple mindset, which is interesting because someone like me who failed all but one of his GCSES understand perfectly but a scholar struggles to understand. God said His strength is made perfect in our weakness.
 
After discussing this topic in numerous atheist forums, I have found it to be one of the strongest arguments leading to the idea of God.

This discussion begins with the problem of consciousness, specifically addressing how to explain human consciousness in a material world. The materialist explanation for consciousness posits that the brain and its physical processes account for all functions of our consciousness. However, there is one aspect of the mind that this explanation fails to address: the concept of "qualia." Qualia refer to the first-person experience of all brain activity, which is subjective, personal, and impossible to transfer.

To grasp the concept of qualia and why it is so challenging (if not impossible) for science to address, I recommend reading Thomas Nagel's famous paper, "What Is It Like to Be a Bat?"

The fundamental issue here is that materialism assumes that matter is inert—matter itself cannot experience anything. Yet, it also asserts that we are made entirely of matter. This leads to a contradiction: if we are made of matter and matter experiences nothing, how is it possible for us to experience our own existence?

While materialism can perfectly explain brain function, it cannot account for the first-person experience that accompanies it. In other words, materialism predicts a world of "philosophical zombies" (see David Chalmers)—beings who are identical to us in behavior and brain function but lack any first-person experience. However, this is not what we observe in reality, indicating that something is missing in the materialistic description.

This is where things get interesting. When materialism attempts to imbue matter with properties that allow for the emergence of first-person experience, either as an inherent property of matter or as an emergent property, it inevitably leads to the idea of panpsychism—the notion that consciousness is a fundamental aspect of all matter.

At this point, atheism begins to falter, as logic and reason lead directly to the idea that the universe, far from being devoid of consciousness except for us, is instead filled with various forms of consciousness. This includes the possibility of a universal consciousness that encompasses all others. While this idea does not exactly align with the Christian concept of God—which I believe is the correct one—it causes many atheists to reject this line of reasoning, often leaving them unable to offer any alternative that does not involve serious logical flaws, such as the problem of hard emergence (see David Chalmers for clarification).

Of course, panpsychism has its own problems, but it is far less problematic than classical materialism when it comes to explaining the origin of qualia and represents a step toward the idea of God.

What do you think?
I think that's a dreadfully long treatise for you use just to say that you don't believe there is a God.
 
I think that's a dreadfully long treatise for you use just to say that you don't believe there is a God.
I don't disbelieve because, for me, it's a fact. But why do you think I don't believe?

Perhaps I focus too much on intellectual arguments, and in the end, what makes someone believe is not intellect but experience. This is why I concluded it doesn't make sense to try to convince others of the existence of God, because it's not really within our power to change something so fundamental in others. We can share our experiences and let others decide for themselves.

What I say about panpsychism touches on one of the greatest problems in our current physical understanding of the universe: the existence of first-person experience, or qualia. According to our knowledge, the universe should be devoid of any experience because matter is inert. No matter how you organize it—whether in the form of a brain or a rock—how many computations are performed with it, or whether something is organic or inorganic, the fundamental issue is that atoms experience nothing, and everything is made of atoms.

But here lies the inexplicable, the miracle: we do experience things... qualia exists.

And this is where materialism collapses, because there is nothing in matter from which qualia can emerge. Whether you try to explain it as a fundamental property (like mass) or as an emergent property (like thought), qualia cannot be explained by matter alone.

If you assume that matter has properties that can produce qualia, it inevitably leads to panpsychism—the idea that everything has its own experience, including the universe itself.

Of course, this is not exactly what I believe, as I believe in God in a more classical sense. But this argument clearly shows that any form of materialism is flawed. So, the evidence for God is not found outside, but inside, because the internal experience is just as real.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: KV-44-v1
Hi LOOKING
I don't disbelieve because, for me, it's a fact. But why do you think I don't believe?
Because the intent of your treatise seems to be that this mental condition you identify is 'why' people have some idea or concept of God. God either exists or He doesn't. If He does exist, then some mental capacity or failing of an individual would have nothing to do with this idea of God.

So, I assumed that someone pushing such an idea likely didn't have a relationship with God and has, through that relationship, found that there isn't any mental condition that makes us have this idea of God. He exists and the idea that He exists comes from what he has revealed to us and His actually speaking with Adam. Not from some mental capacity that might make us think about God.
 
Hi again LOOKING
Perhaps I focus too much on intellectual arguments, and in the end, what makes someone believe is not intellect but experience.
Wow! I actually had a conversation with my pastor last night on this very issue. I'm taking a '2 ways to live' practical gospel presentation course. Last night, we covered a part that said: "The gospel isn't about intellectual content; it's about each individual's personal relationship with God".

I responded that I agreed. Apparently, the point that the course was making was that we don't have to check our brains at the door to believe the gospel. That's not really how I was understanding what the term 'intellectual' was meant to convey.
 
Wow! I actually had a conversation with my pastor last night on this very issue.
This issue is one of the major problems today. People often listen only to the voice of their intellect, which can be valuable, but they fail to understand that there are other valid voices within us.

Intellect may seem like the most reliable and useful source, but this is not always the case. Intuition and perception are just as important as reason.

Consider the example of good and evil. We can't definitively define these terms—there is no absolute definition. Yet, from an intuitive perspective, they are among the most obvious and self-evident realities.
 
I believe God has a simple mindset, which is interesting because someone like me who failed all but one of his GCSES understand perfectly but a scholar struggles to understand. God said His strength is made perfect in our weakness.
From my viewpoint, our intelligence is so insignificant compared to that of God, that the differences which seem so significant to us are insignificant to Him.

Certainly, overthinking can lead people to great mistakes; sometimes, the truth is far more simple. Intelligent people can sometimes get lost in their ideas.

This is expressed in Matthew 11:25

I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
 
Counterpoint - any rebellion against God is evil.
Yes and no.

Any rebellion against God is certainly evil, but since we cannot fully define God, we cannot directly assess whether something is good or evil without explicitly knowing God's will.

This may sound surprising, as many actions are clearly harmful and cause suffering, and it doesn’t require much interpretation to see that these actions are wrong. However, the problem arises when we try to put into words why these actions are bad. Language often fails us in this process. For example: 'It's bad because it causes suffering, but we also cause suffering when we educate children by bringing them to school… but this is for a good cause… but I can't use the word I'm defining in the definition…'

In the end, we realize that while the distinction between good and evil may seem obvious, we cannot fully define it intellectually. This understanding is not intellectual—it is spiritual. Spiritual knowledge comes from God.
 
Why is it suffering that we educate children by bringing them to school?
Anything valuable in life requires effort. In fact, everything demands some degree of sacrifice. This sacrifice often involves some level of suffering, but through it, we learn and grow.

Children, for instance, often resist going to school—they don’t want to wake up early, study, or work. However, we teach them to make these sacrifices so they can develop and grow as individuals. Although it may cause them some discomfort, we insist they attend school for their own benefit.

While we may wish to eliminate this suffering and make everything as smooth and easy as possible, I have learned that when you remove difficulty, you also diminish the reward. Therefore, everything must be carefully balanced.

all God's Commands to us are in the Bible. Old covenant for people in OT times, and New Covenant for after Jesus died and rose and ascended, to us today.,
Yes, it's all written, but the meaning of these words isn't always obvious. Scriptures can be interpreted in many different ways.
 
After discussing this topic in numerous atheist forums, I have found it to be one of the strongest arguments leading to the idea of God.

This discussion begins with the problem of consciousness, specifically addressing how to explain human consciousness in a material world. The materialist explanation for consciousness posits that the brain and its physical processes account for all functions of our consciousness. However, there is one aspect of the mind that this explanation fails to address: the concept of "qualia." Qualia refer to the first-person experience of all brain activity, which is subjective, personal, and impossible to transfer.

To grasp the concept of qualia and why it is so challenging (if not impossible) for science to address, I recommend reading Thomas Nagel's famous paper, "What Is It Like to Be a Bat?"

The fundamental issue here is that materialism assumes that matter is inert—matter itself cannot experience anything. Yet, it also asserts that we are made entirely of matter. This leads to a contradiction: if we are made of matter and matter experiences nothing, how is it possible for us to experience our own existence?

While materialism can perfectly explain brain function, it cannot account for the first-person experience that accompanies it. In other words, materialism predicts a world of "philosophical zombies" (see David Chalmers)—beings who are identical to us in behavior and brain function but lack any first-person experience. However, this is not what we observe in reality, indicating that something is missing in the materialistic description.

This is where things get interesting. When materialism attempts to imbue matter with properties that allow for the emergence of first-person experience, either as an inherent property of matter or as an emergent property, it inevitably leads to the idea of panpsychism—the notion that consciousness is a fundamental aspect of all matter.

At this point, atheism begins to falter, as logic and reason lead directly to the idea that the universe, far from being devoid of consciousness except for us, is instead filled with various forms of consciousness. This includes the possibility of a universal consciousness that encompasses all others. While this idea does not exactly align with the Christian concept of God—which I believe is the correct one—it causes many atheists to reject this line of reasoning, often leaving them unable to offer any alternative that does not involve serious logical flaws, such as the problem of hard emergence (see David Chalmers for clarification).

Of course, panpsychism has its own problems, but it is far less problematic than classical materialism when it comes to explaining the origin of qualia and represents a step toward the idea of God.

What do you think?
My acceptance of God started with the reality of the many eyewitnesses' testimonies to their experiences of seeing Jesus alive from the dead, parts of three days after they knew that he had died. They were willing to suffer and die for their testimonies to his resurrection. That same God, therefore, had plenty of power to do all the other things that the Bible reports him doing.