Couple of Questions

[Silmarien]

Does anyone have any experience converting as an adult? Particularly after having once been hostile towards the religion? I'm all over the place theologically right now.

I could believe in the Resurrection (non-bodily, at least)--I like the argument that the disciples had to have experienced something to go to such lengths after the fact, but I've also seen the counterarguments so it's a bit of a coin toss. That's a jump I could make, but I've realized that I'm still very divided--on an aesthetic and moral level, I love the religion, but my atheist years were spent going after Christian theology in philosophy classes, so there's a fair amount of intellectual hostility there that I never actually defused. It's getting better, but I'm probably going to have to do a lot of theological reading. C.S. Lewis first, though.

Would anyone have any advice for this sort of situation? I've moved close enough to the religion now that not being able to believe (or not believing enough) is a bit stressful, but it's a long way back from hostile atheism, especially if you're not entirely convinced that this isn't just some mad flight of fancy (I'm prone to such things).

Also, I'll have to discuss it with the priest eventually, but at what point is it appropriate to take communion? It'd feel blasphemous to do so right now, since I don't identify as Christian, but I'm not sure when that changes. Episcopal, so the actual requirements are lax.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Hi again Silmarien. Got another thought for ya. This one might help with the barriers or potiential barriers. Please be patient it might take a while to explain

For much of my life I've closely watched my indivual faith. Possibly because I've had friends that don't believe in God, and opened me up to critisms of a Christian believer. Whether I intended to tell them or not of my observations and conclusions, or my thoughts on their criticisms, it had become a kind of mental collection of experiences confirming my faith in God to be real. Some time after this I developed my own theory of finding the truth. Or more accurately the hirarichary of authority for what is true and what isn't. I hope this isn't that dry, but here it goes.

The lowest level of authority For finding what is true and what isn't (as well as what's right and what's not) is good reasoning and good rationelle. I say this is the lowest level of authority because the levels above it can correct it when and if it is wrong. That said mankind are pretty bright people. From detective work and crime scene investigations to engerning, math, and theoretical sciences, to ancient history of great thinkers, mathematicians, and innovators. Our ability to think and reason is a good first step of authority for what is and isn't true.

That said there is a limitation to our understandings. We have too many ideas that can't all be correct. Some are even out right lies. Somethimes it's hard to tell what is good reasoning verses what is really well spoken and who is the best debater. Because of this the next best authority for what is true is experience. To tell what is true by what's happened and what is seen, as well as what ideas don't fit and need to be corrected. This is the level of authority you've said you'd be looking for. But I want to give you encouragement. You're not alone. Just like how we can learn from great thinkers, and those trained in any field to give us a better understanding and better reasoning skills, the experiences we have can be considered along side the experiences of people we trust. That aspect leads down a different rabbit hole of who can you trust and circumstances where you should be skeptical. But for now just want to emphize that your not alone.

The third level of authority would have to be something you trust more then you trust your own senses and personal experiences. Since you're currently searching to hopefully find God, this might be a stretch, but in my opinion He and anything that comes from Him is the highest authority for what is right, and what is true. The major issue with this though is knowing what is from God and what isn't. For me the bible is one of the highest authorities, because I don't know if I can trust my own sence or my own reasoning to determine what's from God and what isn't. So the general rule is if if agrees with the scripture I know, then it's possible that it might be from God. If something goes directly against what I've read then there's enough reason question the source entirely as well as the logic and reasoning it holds.

I'm sorry if that last bit is a stretch, because you can't easily use a trust in God to confirm that God exists. But if you do find Him, then you can call Him the higher authority that can correct us even when we don't have experiences to verify what He would tell us. Until then study the bible and keep the communication open through prayer.

If nothing else be encouraged by statistics that give light by their experiences. If a large enough population say they have had miracles, answered prayers, or other religous experiences; then let that be an encouragement to the possibility of God being real. Unless a population has a reason to lie (like fame or money) give them the benifit of the doubt that they wouldn't all be lying nor would they all be crazy. With that logic to give a benifit of doubt the larger the population with experiences the more reliable the statistic of that kind of experience. For me, I use that kind of logic for possibilities outside of religion as well.

Hope this helps the psychological maze and doesn't make it worse. Peace.

 

[Silmarien]

Silmarien,

That doesn't answer the issue regarding criteria.

I'm not sure what you mean by criteria.

When I see conviction of your sinfulness before God, of God's righteous standard, and that you will stand before God in judgment, I'll know that God is at the door of your heart, knocking and wanting to come into your life. I don't see that yet. Please tell me if I'm wrong in that assessment.

Well, I avoid discussing sin, salvation, and judgment around here because my understanding of those issues is pure Eastern Orthodoxy, and that's obviously a very different approach. But yes, I'm very aware that rejecting God the last time he arguably came calling put me on a path of spiritual self-destruction. I don't think anyone starts taking Christianity seriously as an adult without wrestling with this issue in one form or another.

Note verse 9, 'The world’s sin is that it refuses to believe in me'. Is that where you're at Silmarien?

No. There's a huge spectrum between rejection and affirmation. I'm far from refusal right now.

This is Paul's assessment under God's inspiration of the human resistance to the Gospel: 'But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness' (Rom 1:18 NLT). Could that be what you are doing in your suppression of God's truth?

No. I'm fine with accountability; I'm worried about false hope and perfect solutions.

Hi,

You seem very preoccupied with historical evidence. I understand your need for 'concrete' answers about this issue. The problem you are facing is that you have not understood the Gospel. It is not about coming to a place where you are satisfied with the historical authenticity of the Bible. If that is your main barrier to becoming a Christian, then you will likely never make that step. Not because there's little or no evidence, but because being Christian is about faith.

Yes, there's a lot of historical evidence to support many of the Bible's claims. But then again, for many other things, there's not. That's not a problem. It's only a problem if you are looking at Christianity from a simply academic point of view. But Christianity is not about academia - it is about a personal relationship with God through faith. It always has been.

You will be able to find loads of evidence to back up what the Bible says, but at some point, you are going to have to take God at His Word and surrender to Him.

I wish you well and hope you will continue to seek answers and read HIs Word. I believe you've read John. May I recommend perhaps Luke and also Romans, especially the first 8 chapters of Romans.

I'm actually not preoccupied with historical evidence at all anymore. Oz and I have just been in a long, drawn out theologically conservative vs. liberal fight over how to approach it, so it keeps on coming up. I came into this knowing it was about faith, not evidence, but people start looking at me a bit cross-eyed when I start in with the Christian existentialism, so I tend to be a bit quieter about that angle. It's just getting to faith that's the tricky part when you have no idea what you're doing. But that's why I say only personal revelation would convince me now, since it's impossible to have a one sided relationship.

Hi again Silmarien. Got another thought for ya. This one might help with the barriers or potiential barriers. Please be patient it might take a while to explain

For much of my life I've closely watched my indivual faith. Possibly because I've had friends that don't believe in God, and opened me up to critisms of a Christian believer. Whether I intended to tell them or not of my observations and conclusions, or my thoughts on their criticisms, it had become a kind of mental collection of experiences confirming my faith in God to be real. Some time after this I developed my own theory of finding the truth. Or more accurately the hirarichary of authority for what is true and what isn't. I hope this isn't that dry, but here it goes.

The lowest level of authority For finding what is true and what isn't (as well as what's right and what's not) is good reasoning and good rationelle. I say this is the lowest level of authority because the levels above it can correct it when and if it is wrong. That said mankind are pretty bright people. From detective work and crime scene investigations to engerning, math, and theoretical sciences, to ancient history of great thinkers, mathematicians, and innovators. Our ability to think and reason is a good first step of authority for what is and isn't true.

That said there is a limitation to our understandings. We have too many ideas that can't all be correct. Some are even out right lies. Somethimes it's hard to tell what is good reasoning verses what is really well spoken and who is the best debater. Because of this the next best authority for what is true is experience. To tell what is true by what's happened and what is seen, as well as what ideas don't fit and need to be corrected. This is the level of authority you've said you'd be looking for. But I want to give you encouragement. You're not alone. Just like how we can learn from great thinkers, and those trained in any field to give us a better understanding and better reasoning skills, the experiences we have can be considered along side the experiences of people we trust. That aspect leads down a different rabbit hole of who can you trust and circumstances where you should be skeptical. But for now just want to emphize that your not alone.

The third level of authority would have to be something you trust more then you trust your own senses and personal experiences. Since you're currently searching to hopefully find God, this might be a stretch, but in my opinion He and anything that comes from Him is the highest authority for what is right, and what is true. The major issue with this though is knowing what is from God and what isn't. For me the bible is one of the highest authorities, because I don't know if I can trust my own sence or my own reasoning to determine what's from God and what isn't. So the general rule is if if agrees with the scripture I know, then it's possible that it might be from God. If something goes directly against what I've read then there's enough reason question the source entirely as well as the logic and reasoning it holds.

I'm sorry if that last bit is a stretch, because you can't easily use a trust in God to confirm that God exists. But if you do find Him, then you can call Him the higher authority that can correct us even when we don't have experiences to verify what He would tell us. Until then study the bible and keep the communication open through prayer.

If nothing else be encouraged by statistics that give light by their experiences. If a large enough population say they have had miracles, answered prayers, or other religous experiences; then let that be an encouragement to the possibility of God being real. Unless a population has a reason to lie (like fame or money) give them the benifit of the doubt that they wouldn't all be lying nor would they all be crazy. With that logic to give a benifit of doubt the larger the population with experiences the more reliable the statistic of that kind of experience. For me, I use that kind of logic for possibilities outside of religion as well.

Hope this helps the psychological maze and doesn't make it worse. Peace.

Thank you! The only problem with the Bible is that I don't think it's the Word of God. I'm comfortable with the idea of the New Testament as a human record of something that happened, and I am willing to give the writers the benefit of the doubt within their cultural context. I'm actually liking Paul a lot more than I was expecting to, but you can only get so far if you think Scripture is riddled with errors and misinterpretation. I do think you can get to affirming the Resurrection with that, but there's no easy bridge to full Trinitarianism. Though there are plenty of Mainline folk out there who approach Scripture like I do and are still relatively conservative theologically, so it's apparently possible.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi Silmarien
I'm not ignoring you...
Just need to be at computer...

 

[eddif]

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil will never provide the answers we seek.

Of course I seldom hear the tree described the way I think about it. Our senses can enjoy sin for a season, or maybe even feel healing like the woman with the issue of blood. We might to seek to be like God in our carnal thoughts. All these natural experiences with the Adamanic nature will not get us permanence.

Eternal life comes from the tree of life. That root out of dry ground that rests on a search for a city not on our plane of understanding. A city whose builder and maker is God.

The city we should seek; has the light of Jesus providing light for our understanding.

Now if my redneck nature could just be patient to inherit the best things at the last trump. I do get some things now, but the resurrection is not already past.

eddif

 

[OzSpen]

I'm not sure what you mean by criteria.

Silmarien,

A criterion (singular of criteria) is 'a principle or standard by which something may be judged or decided' (Oxford dictionaries online 2017. s v criterion).

Therefore, what standards would you use to determine whether Christianity is true or false?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Well, I avoid discussing sin, salvation, and judgment around here because my understanding of those issues is pure Eastern Orthodoxy, and that's obviously a very different approach. But yes, I'm very aware that rejecting God the last time he arguably came calling put me on a path of spiritual self-destruction. I don't think anyone starts taking Christianity seriously as an adult without wrestling with this issue in one form or another.

That's one of your key reasons for missing the core of Christianity. You won't go to the Bible for your understanding of sin, salvation and judgment; you go to a secondary source/interpretation - Eastern Orthodoxy.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Thank you! The only problem with the Bible is that I don't think it's the Word of God. I'm comfortable with the idea of the New Testament as a human record of something that happened, and I am willing to give the writers the benefit of the doubt within their cultural context. I'm actually liking Paul a lot more than I was expecting to, but you can only get so far if you think Scripture is riddled with errors and misinterpretation. I do think you can get to affirming the Resurrection with that, but there's no easy bridge to full Trinitarianism. Though there are plenty of Mainline folk out there who approach Scripture like I do and are still relatively conservative theologically, so it's apparently possible.

It's gonna be a lot harder to understand and accept Christianity without also accepting the bible to be from God as well. For now though if you can, while considering God and seeking Him, try to keep the possibility that God speaks through the bible. If it's true (it seems to be true for me in my life) then reading the bible might help you find God. Even if you only look at it partially from God when God speaks, gives a message through the prophets, or when Jesus spoke, that might be enough for now while your searching for God.

I also accept that God can reach us and speak to us outside of the bible. It's happened a few times while at church I'm going through something or questioning something and the preacher relievers a sermon that I almost thought the message was for me directly. Since this has happened a few time I give credit that it's God's doing. It's also made me wonder about other times thinking if something is from God or not. From there I use what I understand of the bible as an extra assurance to confirm what I feel that I'm being taught, or what I actually hear, to be from God or if it is something to be suspicious of.

You might not have gotten to it yet in your studies, but a 2 letters of Paul was written to Timothy for concerns of the church in Timothy's area and consul for Timothy. In 2 Timothy 3:14-17, Paul is where I've developed my assurance in the whole bible.

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[eddif]

At the creation words created the natural world and living soul man.

Later

The prophetic words became the man Jesus

Later still

The Son of God (Jesus ) became a quicking spirit. The power of Revelation 3:20
.............

One must understand the law must be used lawfully. The OT must be seen being / becoming Jesus the Son of God and and man. Jesus must be seen throughout the OC scriptures.

When prophetic word is spoken, it is hard to tell when they (the speakers) are the subject or speak of Jesus and not themselves.

At times Silmarien sees the word become reality (Beyond the word just as Word).

Way beyond redneck speak.
eddif

 

[Silmarien]

Silmarien,

A criterion (singular of criteria) is 'a principle or standard by which something may be judged or decided' (Oxford dictionaries online 2017. s v criterion).

Therefore, what standards would you use to determine whether Christianity is true or false?

Oz

I'm in some ways a strong agnostic--I can't make a determination about whether it's true or false. The challenge lies in accepting it despite that.

That's one of your key reasons for missing the core of Christianity. You won't go to the Bible for your understanding of sin, salvation and judgment; you go to a secondary source/interpretation - Eastern Orthodoxy.

There is no such thing as going to the Bible without interpretation. As far as I'm concerned, Sola Scriptura is an oxymoron--Protestantism has obviously been shaped by centuries' worth of European theologians, and everyone takes their inferences and applies them back to Scripture and pretends it's somehow objectively what the Bible says. Complete objectivity is impossible. There is no such thing as avoiding secondary interpretation. At least Catholicism and Orthodoxy don't pretend that their understanding of the religion is independent of their tradition.

If you think I've missed the core of Christianity for finding the message I see in Scripture best reflected in Orthodoxy, you're welcome to that opinion, though I'm not sure how you've concluded that when all we've really discussed is evidence and historicity, and taking a more liberal approach to that doesn't make me incapable of understanding Christian tenets. Eastern Orthodoxy is as biblical as any other tradition--perhaps more so, since issues with translation don't show up in a Greek speaking culture. If you want to go after me for being drawn to postmodern revisionist takes on the religion, that's fine--I've been looking for ways to get to a more conservative take anyway--but if you mean to take issue with Orthodoxy, you've become the revisionist.

It's gonna be a lot harder to understand and accept Christianity without also accepting the bible to be from God as well. For now though if you can, while considering God and seeking Him, try to keep the possibility that God speaks through the bible. If it's true (it seems to be true for me in my life) then reading the bible might help you find God. Even if you only look at it partially from God when God speaks, gives a message through the prophets, or when Jesus spoke, that might be enough for now while your searching for God.

Well, understanding it isn't really a problem, but accepting it certainly is trickier. On the plus side, now that I've veered hard into Anglo-Orthodoxy, I think I'm more comfortable submitting to the weight of tradition on the big issues even if I'm not entirely certain the foundations are steady.

I also accept that God can reach us and speak to us outside of the bible. It's happened a few times while at church I'm going through something or questioning something and the preacher relievers a sermon that I almost thought the message was for me directly. Since this has happened a few time I give credit that it's God's doing. It's also made me wonder about other times thinking if something is from God or not. From there I use what I understand of the bible as an extra assurance to confirm what I feel that I'm being taught, or what I actually hear, to be from God or if it is something to be suspicious of.

Heh, at least half the sermons I've gone to seem to have been specifically directed at me, and one that wasn't pushed my equally skeptical brother halfway to conversion. I'd assumed it was just that I was on the same wavelength as the priest, but we had a visiting priest on Sunday who's sermon was basically "Get off the fence, Nicodemus," so... that was particularly on point. Also, the one time I felt drawn to take communion, I got pulled into the community a bit for the first time, so it's been a bit interesting.

The best way to describe my problem would be to say that I'm stranded in the middle of a desert and can't tell if this is the oasis or the mirage! And I know that if I start drinking properly, it may well taste like water one way or the other, since people clearly experience it as real... but they do other religions as well. I know ways around that which don't lead to pluralism or mass delusion, but it's hard to discard or disregard those possibilities altogether. But that's what I read Kierkegaard for, haha.

I actually did make up my mind a while ago. You can't really reject the reductionist materialist mindset and then continue to accept reductionist explanations, but it's wild to go from "Christianity is absolutely impossible and I have nothing nice to say about religion anyway" to... this. I freak out a bit about minor decisions, and there's nothing minor about this one.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Well, understanding it isn't really a problem, but accepting it certainly is trickier. On the plus side, now that I've veered hard into Anglo-Orthodoxy, I think I'm more comfortable submitting to the weight of tradition on the big issues even if I'm not entirely certain the foundations are steady.



Heh, at least half the sermons I've gone to seem to have been specifically directed at me, and one that wasn't pushed my equally skeptical brother halfway to conversion. I'd assumed it was just that I was on the same wavelength as the priest, but we had a visiting priest on Sunday who's sermon was basically "Get off the fence, Nicodemus," so... that was particularly on point. Also, the one time I felt drawn to take communion, I got pulled into the community a bit for the first time, so it's been a bit interesting.

The best way to describe my problem would be to say that I'm stranded in the middle of a desert and can't tell if this is the oasis or the mirage! And I know that if I start drinking properly, it may well taste like water one way or the other, since people clearly experience it as real... but they do other religions as well. I know ways around that which don't lead to pluralism or mass delusion, but it's hard to discard or disregard those possibilities altogether. But that's what I read Kierkegaard for, haha.

I actually did make up my mind a while ago. You can't really reject the reductionist materialist mindset and then continue to accept reductionist explanations, but it's wild to go from "Christianity is absolutely impossible and I have nothing nice to say about religion anyway" to... this. I freak out a bit about minor decisions, and there's nothing minor about this one.

It sounds like to me that God is indeed showing Himself to you, and helping you come out of the place you were in before. I hope I'm right.

You know what's kinda intresting? You refer to your sitution being in the desert and wondering if you see water or a mirage. In John 4, Jesus talked to a Smartian woman by a well. Telling her that He has living water that would quench her thirst. If you're interested I'd recommend looking at that chapter.

That said, I get what you mean by this being a big decision. I hope I don't scare you off from looking for God or from finding Him, but it really is a big desision. You're familiar with whe concept that the person who holds on to their life loses it, but the person who loses it for Jesus's sake, gains their life. There's two small parables that share this conclusion, that the cost is great, but the reward is greater. Mathew 13:44-46

Mathew 13:44-46 (NLT)

The Kingdom of Heaven is like a treasure that a man discovered hidden in a field. In his excitement, he hid it again and sold everything he owned to get enough money to buy the field.

45 “Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a merchant on the lookout for choice pearls. 46 When he discovered a pearl of great value, he sold everything he owned and bought it!

The two conclusions these parables offer is that the cost of the Kingdom of Heaven is great, but also so is the treasure of having it. More to the cost of it though, in both parables they sold everything they had for the treasure the parable is using. It's arguable that these two parables are saying to follow Jesus is to cost a person everything they have and cost them their life. Placing them right along the same line of the person who holds onto their life loses it, but the person who loses it for Jesus's sake, finds it.

As for if this is real water or delusion. I want to challenge you on the merits of delusion. You're introduced to a church community and seem to be both drawn into it as well as being accepted by it. So with that you have a resource you probabley didn't have before when you were an atheist. A community of Christians that are open and welcoming instead of defensive or shy. Get to know them and about their lives. If they sound sane and intelligent they should be a sure sign the water isn't a delusion.

 

[Silmarien]

It sounds like to me that God is indeed showing Himself to you, and helping you come out of the place you were in before. I hope I'm right.

You know what's kinda intresting? You refer to your sitution being in the desert and wondering if you see water or a mirage. In John 4, Jesus talked to a Smartian woman by a well. Telling her that He has living water that would quench her thirst. If you're interested I'd recommend looking at that chapter.

I hope you're right too! Last time I heard from Him (maybe), I got told in no uncertain terms not to turn away. My response was straight out of Paradise Lost, so... I've kind of savaged myself spiritually. You'd think that would count as strong evidence, but it was too long ago to remember much of anything but the skepticism.

But yeah, I know the Samaritan by the Well story. I don't think I was specifically thinking of that one, but my water related metaphors are not a coincidence at all. Probably an improvement on "runaway sheep." I was identifying quite strongly with that image a month or two ago! This has been a very strange experience, haha.

But don't worry, you're not going to scare me off, and certainly not with parables! I know some people around here think I stress the "God is love" part at the expense of all else (and not entirely without reason), but I definitely see it in terms of "The Kingdom of God has arrived--reconcile yourself now because you're nothing on your own anyway." It makes sense to me, at least theoretically, but that first part is obviously a really big claim!

As for if this is real water or delusion. I want to challenge you on the merits of delusion. You're introduced to a church community and seem to be both drawn into it as well as being accepted by it. So with that you have a resource you probabley didn't have before when you were an atheist. A community of Christians that are open and welcoming instead of defensive or shy. Get to know them and about their lives. If they sound sane and intelligent they should be a sure sign the water isn't a delusion.

To be fair, atheists have the Unitarian Universalists. ;) I spent a couple weeks there, and they were fantastic too. A good way to get used to a church environment in general, but not what I was looking for. I haven't actually been an atheist for about a decade, though. I just stayed away from religion because I thought everyone was making up God in their own image. It took a while to figure out that the Gospel wasn't really reflecting the bad parts.

 

[eddif]

Psalms 107:35
He turneth the wilderness into a standing water, and dry ground into watersprings.

This is a good pleasant scripture, but it is in the middle of bad situations.

Our times in dry places can be resolved by God. Out in the dry wilderness there are very few distractions. John the Baptist spent some time in the literal wilderness, but it seems Jesus spent time in an internal wilderness of the mind.

Do we learn, and leave the wilderness and help others?

redneck
eddif

 

[Brock]

I hope you're right too! Last time I heard from Him (maybe), I got told in no uncertain terms not to turn away. My response was straight out of Paradise Lost, so... I've kind of savaged myself spiritually. You'd think that would count as strong evidence, but it was too long ago to remember much of anything but the skepticism.

But yeah, I know the Samaritan by the Well story. I don't think I was specifically thinking of that one, but my water related metaphors are not a coincidence at all. Probably an improvement on "runaway sheep." I was identifying quite strongly with that image a month or two ago! This has been a very strange experience, haha.

But don't worry, you're not going to scare me off, and certainly not with parables! I know some people around here think I stress the "God is love" part at the expense of all else (and not entirely without reason), but I definitely see it in terms of "The Kingdom of God has arrived--reconcile yourself now because you're nothing on your own anyway." It makes sense to me, at least theoretically, but that first part is obviously a really big claim!



To be fair, atheists have the Unitarian Universalists. ;) I spent a couple weeks there, and they were fantastic too. A good way to get used to a church environment in general, but not what I was looking for. I haven't actually been an atheist for about a decade, though. I just stayed away from religion because I thought everyone was making up God in their own image. It took a while to figure out that the Gospel wasn't really reflecting the bad parts.

Romans 10:9 If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[WIP]

Romans 10:9 If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

True, but what does it really mean for one to "believe in your heart and confess with your mouth?"

 

[eddif]

True, but what does it really mean for one to "believe in your heart and confess with your mouth?"

Brock can sure give his answer.

I would like to comment too.

Our heart is nearest our flesh, but does have a part of / in our actions.

Our speech center of our mind is in between the spirit of our mind and the lips.

I am sure clarity of thought is not perfect in my redneck brain. There are, however, at least 2 areas of our existence before the resurrection.
Romans 7:25

The old covenant has two areas in the flesh:
Psalms 7:9 KJV
Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.

(Does not say reigns of heart in King James). Reins = kidneys

1. The heart supplies the body good
2. The kidneys filter the bad out

The new covenant has the new man:
1. With Word in heart (to confess sins)
2. With Word in mind to give God the credit for what has been / will be done.

1.Two parts at least in body image
2. Two parts at least in spiritual man.

One is an eternal reality.
The other is a temporal shadow.


At the last trump we shall put on immortality. The judgement throne is a reality. Our conversations now are a shadow of things to come.

Redneck
eddif

 

[Brock]

True, but what does it really mean for one to "believe in your heart and confess with your mouth?"

I'm waiting on God to give me an answer

 

[OzSpen]

I'm waiting on God to give me an answer

Are you saying the answer is not in Scripture?

 

[eddif]

John 1:14 KJV
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

I Corinthians 15:45 KJV
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

John 16:13 KJV
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

John 16:8 KJV
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

At no time should personal revelation outweigh scripture, but scripture does become alive through Jesus.

One day face to face.

Redneck
eddif

 

[Brock]

Are you saying the answer is not in Scripture?

No I'm sure it is God will lead me to it

 

[OzSpen]

No I'm sure it is God will lead me to it

Ever heard of doing exegesis of the biblical text of Rom 10:9 (ESV) to discover the answer?