Credo & Paedobaptism

[JM]

What do you believe? Should infants be baptized or should a confession of faith be made first with baptism following?

 

[Georges]

What do you believe? Should infants be baptized or should a confession of faith be made first with baptism following?

I don't know the definition of the terms....can you define (simple terms) for me...

I'll opine to what I think the poll asks....

I believe that Jesus set the standard....

Child dedication and circumcision (for boys) under Mosaic guidelines.....then adult baptism...

For new adult believers.....Men, 2 circumstances: 1. Circumcision and baptism (Proselyting) to identify with God's promises to Israel as full community members, 2. Baptism without circumcision for God Fearers who wish to have a part in the future Messianic Kingdom but not full recognition as commuity members.

Circumcision separates the Men from the Boys....who is serious about God's promises and who is not....

 

[Vic C.]

George, what do you think of these verses in light of circumcision being a requirement for Christians?

Jer 9:25 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will punish all them which are circumcised with the uncircumcised;
Jer 9:26 Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

I think that gets to the 'heart' of the matter.

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

Credobaptism: from the Latin word credo meaning “I believe†Today it is more commonly know as believers baptism, and this type of baptism is given to adults and children who have made a declaration of their faith that Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credobaptism

Paedobaptism (or Pedobaptism): from the Greek pais meaning "child." Today it is more commonly known as infant baptism, and this type of baptism is given to babies and young children.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedobaptism

I personally believe in Credobaptism, believer’s baptism.

 

[Poke]

Child dedication and circumcision (for boys) under Mosaic guidelines.....then adult baptism...

But, not for the girls? How sexist!

 

[Solo]

Credobaptism

 

[Georges]

George, what do you think of these verses in light of circumcision being a requirement for Christians?

I think Christians who want to identify with Israel and God's promises for their future (ie Messianic Millennial Kingdom) should consider circumcision and identifying with Nazarene Judaism (ie Chuch at Jerusalem).

Jer 9:25 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will punish all them which are circumcised with the uncircumcised;
Jer 9:26 Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart.

Circumcision...is a "serious" intent on an individual's part, identifying them with God's promises to Isarel. Circumcision hurts....for a man, I doubt if there is any more serious pain (guy's you know what I'm talking about). You better be serious if you consider such an "oath (?).

Having said that, because a person becomes circumsized, it doesn't mean that they will continue in their oath...an example is the HP's of Jesus' time, they were circumsized yet they were guilty of not being circumcised of the heart. Israel had lapses in national responsiblity...they were punished and forgiven...

[quote:e37e7]Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

If a man is born from Jewish parents....he is a Jew. According to Jewish Law, a Gentile who undergoes the proper proceedure for proselyting commits to circumcision and baptism....Again the outward circumcision is a "very serious, painful" commitment...If one is serious about proselyting, he does, or should have a Godly heart...In any event, one who goes through circumcision physically, should automatically, be circumsized spiritually at the same time...

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

Again...the wish to identify with God so much that you will have the foreskin removed from your most personal part....God didn't require a little chunck of your earlobe as part of the covenant....It was the most personal part of a man....Personally, I believe it is a reward for wanting to identify with God's promise...

I think that gets to the 'heart' of the matter. [/quote:e37e7]

It is a matter of heart and conviction.....Vic would you agree that it is a serious step in "faith" so much so that you would have that part cut off? Can you imagine the pain you must go through to prove that you want to identify with God as he commanded?

Paul wants to neglect people of that choice? Don't you think it is a slap in the face of the millions of Jewish believers and thousands of Jewish/Chrisitaian (Nazarene Jews) believers in God who went through that?

If only they had listened to Paul.....it would have saved them a lot of pain... :wink:

 

[Georges]

Child dedication and circumcision (for boys) under Mosaic guidelines.....then adult baptism...

But, not for the girls? How sexist!

Sorry...I'm sure there are guidelines for girls as well...tough to pull the cirucumcision on that one....I'll have to look into it...

 

[Solo]

George, what do you think of these verses in light of circumcision being a requirement for Christians?

I think Christians who want to identify with Israel and God's promises for their future (ie Messianic Millennial Kingdom) should consider circumcision and identifying with Nazarene Judaism (ie Chuch at Jerusalem).

Jer 9:25 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will punish all them which are circumcised with the uncircumcised;
Jer 9:26 Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart.

Circumcision...is a "serious" intent on an individual's part, identifying them with God's promises to Isarel. Circumcision hurts....for a man, I doubt if there is any more serious pain (guy's you know what I'm talking about). You better be serious if you consider such an "oath (?).

Having said that, because a person becomes circumsized, it doesn't mean that they will continue in their oath...an example is the HP's of Jesus' time, they were circumsized yet they were guilty of not being circumcised of the heart. Israel had lapses in national responsiblity...they were punished and forgiven...

[quote:4f705]Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

If a man is born from Jewish parents....he is a Jew. According to Jewish Law, a Gentile who undergoes the proper proceedure for proselyting commits to circumcision and baptism....Again the outward circumcision is a "very serious, painful" commitment...If one is serious about proselyting, he does, or should have a Godly heart...In any event, one who goes through circumcision physically, should automatically, be circumsized spiritually at the same time...

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

Again...the wish to identify with God so much that you will have the foreskin removed from your most personal part....God didn't require a little chunck of your earlobe as part of the covenant....It was the most personal part of a man....Personally, I believe it is a reward for wanting to identify with God's promise...

I think that gets to the 'heart' of the matter.

It is a matter of heart and conviction.....Vic would you agree that it is a serious step in "faith" so much so that you would have that part cut off? Can you imagine the pain you must go through to prove that you want to identify with God as he commanded?

Paul wants to neglect people of that choice? Don't you think it is a slap in the face of the millions of Jewish believers and thousands of Jewish/Chrisitaian (Nazarene Jews) believers in God who went through that?

If only they had listened to Paul.....it would have saved them a lot of pain... :wink:[/quote:4f705]
George is a dear lost soul who has never been born of the Spirit of God with teachings of false conversion, and false salvation, and false messiahship, and false millenium, and false etc. etc. etc.

 

[Georges]

George is a dear lost soul who has never been born of the Spirit of God with teachings of false conversion, and false salvation, and false messiahship, and false millenium, and false etc. etc. etc.

Luv ya Solo....I won't debate you...so go ahead and opine, I won't contest.

 

[Solo]

Luv ya Solo....I won't debate you...so go ahead and opine, I won't contest.

Thanks for loving me George. I am not debating you as you have enclosed yourself into a delusion created to keep you in bondage, without the ability to see the truth of JEHOVAH God. I am giving those on this forum a warning about your teachings in hopes that they do not end their search for God in the gnostic mystical traditions as you yourself have done. Just be thankful that I am not the administrator of this forum, for you would be banned for your heretical teachings.

 

[JM]

I thought this topic would get more attention, I guess everyone here is a baptist.

 

[Georges]

Thanks for loving me George. I am not debating you as you have enclosed yourself into a delusion created to keep you in bondage, without the ability to see the truth of JEHOVAH God. I am giving those on this forum a warning about your teachings in hopes that they do not end their search for God in the gnostic mystical traditions as you yourself have done. Just be thankful that I am not the administrator of this forum, for you would be banned for your heretical teachings.[/size]

Thank God for the smaller miracles in life..... Solo, I choose not to debate you only because you've had a serious head trauma and I suspect your judgment as a result is affected. Had I known of your serious trauma before, I wouldn't have wasted my time debating you. The picture you posted goes a long way in explaining why you haven't grabbed the concepts I easily layed out for you. I don't know maybe someone else may have gotten something good out of our dialogues...but I feel like I'm not debating on level terms...and it explains your animosity...

And....my opinions certainly aren't Gnostic....you don't know what Gnosticism is so please don't throw that term in my direction...thanks. Solo, Paul teaches a mystery Christ...not me. I view Christ as the legit Apostles view him...urgh....you pulled me back into the debate...no more.

 

[AVBunyan]

No water baptism in any form today

I believe there is one baptism - the spiritual baptism of Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

God bless

 

[Solo]

No water baptism in any form today

I believe there is one baptism - the spiritual baptism of Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

God bless

AV,
You have read my posts before and after my accident, and you have seen the terrible diatribe that George just leveled at me and my ability to debate the truth of the Word of God against his antichristian rhetoric. What is your thoughts on the subject of my correcting, reproving, and instruction in righteousness from the Word of God? I think that I have a much better understanding of the truth than George does even with having gone through such terrific trauma. Oh well, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

 

[xicali]

No water baptism in any form today

Romans 6:3-4 •We were baptized into His death
1 Cor 12:13 •We were all baptized into one body
Galatians 3:27 •We were baptized into Christ
Col 2:12 •Buried with Him in baptism

"Leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of:

1. Repentance from dead works.
2. Faith toward God.
3. The doctrine of baptisms.
4. Laying on of hands.
5. Resurrection of the dead.
6. Eternal judgment.

And this will we do, if God permit." Hebrews 6:1-3


Jesus was baptized to fulfill the law.

Matthew 3:15
Romans 8:3-4
Romans 15:8

Paul was baptized, and he baptized others at first, but later her rectified himself, as he grew in instruction from the Lord.

Acts 9:17-18
1 Cor 1:16
1 Cor 1:17

You can't mix works and Grace, and partake of the benefits of the blessing of the resurected Christ.

 

[Georges]

No water baptism in any form today

I believe there is one baptism - the spiritual baptism of Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

God bless

AV,
You have read my posts before and after my accident, and you have seen the terrible diatribe that George just leveled at me and my ability to debate the truth of the Word of God against his antichristian rhetoric. What is your thoughts on the subject of my correcting, reproving, and instruction in righteousness from the Word of God? I think that I have a much better understanding of the truth than George does even with having gone through such terrific trauma. Oh well, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

I wasn't saying anything against you as a person...I have a great amount of sympathy (whether it's wanted or not) toward you...I did not speak ill of you....I simply pointed out the fact that you were in a serious life threatening accident. You sustained severe head trauma....period...I appreciate that you are alive and what you had come through...but because I choose not to debate you because I think you took a good whack doesn't mean I'm slighting you...I just think that on retrospect motorcycle helmets may be a good thing...no disrespect intended.

 

[AVBunyan]

Solo, I choose not to debate you only because you've had a serious head trauma and I suspect your judgment as a result is affected.

I don't buy it Georges - if you are sincere here Georges then I won't go overboard but....but...I will take Solo with his "head injury", the Spirit that God gave him, the AV1611 that he reads and trust his reasoning abilities over any bible-correcting, "professor/scholar" out there.

I'll take Solo in his "suspect" state and trust his judgement over a whole lot of "educated" folks.

Bottom line - Georges, God can override any injury and it appears God has used Solo's head injuries to bring him into a further personal realtionship with his Saviour,

Nah Georges - you best find a better excuse or reason if you don't want to "chat" with Solo - Solo makes a lot of sense to me - I stand by the brother.

God bless

 

[Georges]

Solo, I choose not to debate you only because you've had a serious head trauma and I suspect your judgment as a result is affected.

I don't buy it Georges - if you are sincere here Georges then I won't go overboard but....but...I will take Solo with his "head injury", the Spirit that God gave him, the AV1611 that he reads and trust his reasoning abilities over any bible-correcting, "professor/scholar" out there.

Loyalty is an admirable quality...Solo is lucky to have a friend stick up for him as you do...I was pointing out why I don't want to debate him anymore...I wan't trying to make any more out of it than that....

I'll take Solo in his "suspect" state and trust his judgement over a whole lot of "educated" folks.

Of course that is your choice as a born free American...mine is not to unless of course he says something I agree with. Solo brings alot to the table, and he isn't a stupid man. I just think his cognitive reason may be a little off. It may not be, but that would explain to me why we keep going over the same things and they don't click for him.

Bottom line - Georges, God can override any injury and it appears God has used Solo's head injuries to bring him into a further personal realtionship with his Saviour,

That's great, and I hope so....it's the power of reason I only question.

Nah Georges - you best find a better excuse or reason if you don't want to "chat" with Solo - Solo makes a lot of sense to me - I stand by the brother.

As well you should if you feel he is right...No, I don't need another excuse to cease debating...I've been kind to him regardless of all the insluts he's hurled...and will continue to be kind regardless of the insults he undoubtably will continue to hurl....

God bless

I meant no disrespect....

 

[AVBunyan]

1.I just think his cognitive reason may be a little off. It may not be, but that would explain to me why we keep going over the same things and they don't click for him. That's great, and I hope so....it's the power of reason I only question.

2. I meant no disrespect....

1. I was just saying I believe his injury has had nothing to do with his reasoning ability. In fact I'm sure Solo will base the reason for his injury on Rom. 8:28 and Eph. 1:11 - in fact he might even say God has used it for the good and that the injury has made him the better saint for it.

2. Honestly - I think think you were being disrepectful - I just believe your assessment was not accurate. :o

Later