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Bible Study Curious about Romans 7:18-20

"I know nothing good lies in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no the evil I do not want to do-- this I keep doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it." Romans 7:18-20

So I was reading through my Bible today and I came accross this. It interested me because it highlights that WE SIN! It says that NOTHING GOOD lies in us so what does that make God to us? This verse really humbled me because I am not good without God. He makes me good. I love love love this verse because it does say I am a sinner but honestly God loves sinners and he forgives them so I'm pretty happy with myself. God is good for us...that is not something you see in any other religion. I love God because I find myself falling for him over and over agian every time I see a verse like this and it is absolutly amazing. So any thoughts on this verse?
 
So I was reading through my Bible today and I came accross this. It interested me because it highlights that WE SIN! It says that NOTHING GOOD lies in us so what does that make God to us? This verse really humbled me because I am not good without God. He makes me good. I love love love this verse because it does say I am a sinner but honestly God loves sinners and he forgives them so I'm pretty happy with myself. God is good for us...that is not something you see in any other religion. I love God because I find myself falling for him over and over agian every time I see a verse like this and it is absolutly amazing. So any thoughts on this verse?


I can't add much more to what you have said, and I think your words show evidence of real, living faith.

We are sinners, but it is God who changes us from within, not us who change us for God. I think this is one of the most important aspects of understanding Christianity.

There is this thing called the Christian life, which we want to live up to, and that fine; but it is God in us that conforms us to it. I think you see that.

Along this same theme let me share with you that I use to struggle, and still do, with the idea of being a Christian in the world. Sunday was great, but by Saturday I was a mess looking forward to getting back to God on Sunday. I felt that the effort to be righteous was on me 100% and often I would "slip".

Someone asked me; if Christ came by your work and said; "follow me" would you leave your desk and do it? Sure, I said. Then if Christ is alive today as you say, why haven't you done it? ......The question was a rhetorical metaphor about how we should live as Christians in our daily lives, in everything we do, living in the world and not being of it. This is a little deeper than your point, but it addresses the point others make about our effort in following Christ, being a Christian and understanding our sin nature. It stuck hard with me. It changed my understanding of my relationship with God. We don't just meet God on Sunday and then we are our sin-selves when we don't have a scheduled appointment with him. NO, we are his always, all the time and he works in us constantly.
 
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You kids are something else... I am so very thankful you guys are here!

I am glad she is too. I have been slacking due to overload... Not falling away but more disappearing a bit :sad I wish my life would be less crazy.
 
This is a really interesting cross reference for this subject matter.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
9*Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers,
10*Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.
11*And such some of you were; but you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Spirit of our God.
 
JesusFreak,

This is one of my favorite Bible verses as well. Recently, I have begun a life moving transformation with Christ and I came across these verses. You nailed it, we are nothing without God--I had to learn the hard way. It is very encouraging to see a young Christian as yourself on fire for God. Stay true to the Word!
 
"I know nothing good lies in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no the evil I do not want to do-- this I keep doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it." Romans 7:18-20

So I was reading through my Bible today and I came accross this. It interested me because it highlights that WE SIN! It says that NOTHING GOOD lies in us so what does that make God to us? This verse really humbled me because I am not good without God. He makes me good. I love love love this verse because it does say I am a sinner but honestly God loves sinners and he forgives them so I'm pretty happy with myself. God is good for us...that is not something you see in any other religion. I love God because I find myself falling for him over and over agian every time I see a verse like this and it is absolutly amazing. So any thoughts on this verse?

When one is Born Again he is Spiritually done so. Yet, bodily he is not so. What Paul is saying is that it is a battle for the Born Again 'mind' to [[CONTROL]] the still carnal body. Yet, Paul has told us by Inspiration that our body is to be the temple of the Holy Ghost & we are to [control] our bodies & not have our bodies control us. (1 Cor. 3:16-17 + 1 Cor. 9:27) This seems to be a very hard one for USA today? Yet, one must work to this end. Note Paul in 2 Cor. 12:9 & see Phil. 4:13 So Christ just PLAINLY SAYS THAT WE CAN DO IT!:thumbsup (and we must strive to do so. Heb. 12:4)

Your question is a Very Good one for us! Let me just say that the real issue for professed Christians of today (not meaning any person) is the 'sin of omission', the required hard to do work, because of what everyone else would say.
Case in point is found in Num. 16:2-3
It seems that most think of LOVE as a emotion rather than a Loving 'OBEDIENT PRINCIPLE'!

---Elijah
 
Most of the time, scripture is referring to the carnal or sinful nature of man when using the word flesh.

Strong's Greek word here is [sarx]: Here, the flesh denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God.

The human body itself is a thing and "All things indeed are pure" so, the word "flesh" in Romans 7:18 is in reference to the nature, not the body, of man.

Paraphrased: "For I know that in me (that is, in my old man or nature,) dwelleth no good thing."

vs 17, 20: "Now then it is no more I (the new me with my new man or nature) that does it, but sin (old man) that dwelleth in me."

v 25: "So then with the mind I myself (as the new man) serve the law of God; but with the flesh (old man) the law of sin.

In verse 25 Paul said he "served the law of God" and "the law of sin." This concurs with 1 John 1:8 that we cannot be without sin and we cannot have sin and live without sinning (v 10).

When a Christian sins it's always with his old man (Rom 7:17, 20), which cannot change because "it cannot be subject to the law of God" (Rom 8:7). By the Spirit through the new man or nature we can not sin. "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God" (1 John 3:9).

It's not the nature or new man that has been born again but the person. The new nature is "His seed" which is now in us. The new nature or "seed" is from Christ (Eph 4:24; Col 3:10), which is how we are now "partakers of the divine nature" (2Pe 1:4), and neither it nor Christ required rebirth, but the person. So, by the Holy Spirit with our new man we can not sin, but serve the law of God, as Paul wrote in Romans 7:23.

As Jesusfreak97 has noted, "He makes me good", because it is God who continues to put in us the desire for His will and the means of it to be done in and by us. "It is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure" (Phil 2:13). All by His Holy Spirit. "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would" (Gal 5:17).
 
Most of the time, scripture is referring to the carnal or sinful nature of man when using the word flesh.

Strong's Greek word here is [sarx]: Here, the flesh denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God.

The human body itself is a thing and "All things indeed are pure" so, the word "flesh" in Romans 7:18 is in reference to the nature, not the body, of man.

Paraphrased: "For I know that in me (that is, in my old man or nature,) dwelleth no good thing."

vs 17, 20: "Now then it is no more I (the new me with my new man or nature) that does it, but sin (old man) that dwelleth in me."

v 25: "So then with the mind I myself (as the new man) serve the law of God; but with the flesh (old man) the law of sin.

In verse 25 Paul said he "served the law of God" and "the law of sin." This concurs with 1 John 1:8 that we cannot be without sin and we cannot have sin and live without sinning (v 10).

When a Christian sins it's always with his old man (Rom 7:17, 20), which cannot change because "it cannot be subject to the law of God" (Rom 8:7). By the Spirit through the new man or nature we can not sin. "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God" (1 John 3:9).

It's not the nature or new man that has been born again but the person. The new nature is "His seed" which is now in us. The new nature or "seed" is from Christ (Eph 4:24; Col 3:10), which is how we are now "partakers of the divine nature" (2Pe 1:4), and neither it nor Christ required rebirth, but the person. So, by the Holy Spirit with our new man we can not sin, but serve the law of God, as Paul wrote in Romans 7:23.

As Jesusfreak97 has noted, "He makes me good", because it is God who continues to put in us the desire for His will and the means of it to be done in and by us. "It is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure" (Phil 2:13). All by His Holy Spirit. "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would" (Gal 5:17).

So what you are teaching is OSAS?? Make it 'quick' & simple for me to know where you are coming from in your postings!;) (a yes or no would be great!)

--Elijah
 
Hi my brother Elijah674 and God's blessings to you.

Yes to the OSAS for me. Remember though, the OSAO doctrine is not salvation essential but only growth essential!
 
Hi my brother Elijah674 and God's blessings to you.

Yes to the OSAS for me. Remember though, the OSAO doctrine is not salvation essential but only growth essential!

Me again, (HI!) anyway I asked.. 'Make it 'quick' & simple for me to know where you are coming from in your postings!;) (a yes or no would be great!)' and you did great until.. 'Remember though, the OSAO doctrine is not salvation essential but only growth essential![/QUOTE]

What is that suppose to mean??:chin
--Elijah
 
Some may believe that to be saved you must believe in OSAS and I was directed to all who will read this, that it's non-essential to salvation.
 
Some may believe that to be saved you must believe in OSAS and I was directed to all who will read this, that it's non-essential to salvation.

OK. Surely all of mankind need to know that God eternally has known who it would be that He could save:thumbsup. Yet, for us if it is by faith only, then to be osas does away with matured faith being required. Right?

--Elijah
 
The level of maturity our faith is as has no effect on the retention of our salvation. Our level of maturity in Christ effects our works and our works effect, not our being saved, but our outreach to others and our eternal rewards which will accompany our eternal salvation.

Their are people who are still carnal, but saved--"babes in Christ" (1 Cor 3:1).
 
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The level of maturity our faith is as has no effect on the retention of our salvation. Our level of maturity in Christ effects our works and our works effect, not our being saved, but our outreach to others and our eternal rewards which will accompany our eternal salvation.

Their are people who are still carnal, but saved--"babes in Christ" (1 Cor 3:1).

I don't know your babe to mature growth? But if you can relate Rev.3 with just the last two candelsticks on earth (Rev. 1:20) starting with verse 7 on throught 16. There are just these two seen here with one being cautioned to be spewed out (as sickening.. surely not rubber Warnings!) and verse 10 has the other 'kept' from the hour of the earths last testing.

OK: Two seen so far, and then comes verse 9 in/between. (it is one of only two!) Are you saying that these ones in verse 9 who surely to be numbered with the 7 Virgin Candelsticks ones, are saved???

verse 9 ibid
[8] I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
[9] Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; ..'

_____

Rev. 1
And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
[13] And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
[14] His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
[15] And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
[16] And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
[17] And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
[18] I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
[19] Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

[20] The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The [[seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.]]

And Rev. 2:5's Warning to these Virgin Church's are again just rubber bullets?? (verse 20 above)

Rev. 2
[5] Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

--Elijah
 
My beloved Elijah, I appreciate your labors in the Word but I don't think it is advisable to attempt to support a concept by the use of the book of Revelation.

Due to the obscurity of its' escatological content, the concepts of bible commentators on this book of scripture varies and therefore I believe one can only choose that which is most applicable to your understanding, which is where the Lord will work from.

I would need direct questions to respond with answers because I'm not sure what you're asking me.

If I may share my opinion with you concerning Revelation commentary, I've found John Gill's (1697–1771) to be the most helpful to me. Below is a sample of Revelation Two.

Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen,.... Believers cannot totally and finally fall away from the grace which they have received; but they may fall into sin, and from a degree of grace, and the exercise of it, as these first and pure churches did, from some degree of their love to God, and Christ, and one another; and therefore are called upon to remember, mind, and observe from what degree of it they were fallen; in order to bring them under a conviction and acknowledgment of their evil, and a sense of their present state, and to quicken their desires after a restoration to their former one:

and repent; of their coldness and lukewarmness, of the remissness of their love, and of those evils which brought it upon them:

and do the first works; of faith and love, with the like zeal and fervour, which will show the repentance to be sincere and genuine; so the Arabic version reads, "and exercise the former works, to wit, charity" or "love." The Jews have a saying {b}, "if a man repents, do not say to him, "remember" Mynwvarx Kyvem, "thy first works";" which they seem to understand of evil works; but former good works are to be remembered and done, to show the truth of repentance for evil ones.

Or else I will come unto thee quickly; not in a spiritual way, to pay a love visit, nor in a judicial way, to take vengeance or inflict punishment, but in a providential way, to rebuke and chastise:

and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent; or thee out of the candlestick, the pastor from the church, either by persecution or by death; or else the church, and church state itself, signified by a candlestick; See Gill on "Re 1:12"; and may design a shaking and an unsettling of it, which is sometimes done by violent persecutions, and by false teachers and their doctrines, and by the divisions and contentions of saints among themselves; and by the former particularly was there a change made in the state of this apostolic church, when it passed into the Smyrnean one, which was a period of great persecution and distress; for this cannot be understood of the total removing of the church state itself quickly, no, not of Ephesus itself; for though there is not now indeed, nor has there been for many hundred years, a church of Christ in that place, yet there was one till the times of Constantine, when there was none in any of the other seven cities, and a long time after; See Gill on "Ac 20:17"; which shows, that this was not a commination or threatening of divine vengence to that church literally, but to the state of the church, which that represented; nor does it intend the utter abolition of that church, for the apostolic church still continued, though it ceased to be in the circumstances it was before.

You can bypass his introduction of each chapter and scroll down to his verse by verse commentary if you like.

http://www.ewordtoday.com/comments/revelation/gill/revelation2.htm
 
My beloved Elijah, I appreciate your labors in the Word but I don't think it is advisable to attempt to support a concept by the use of the book of Revelation.
____________

OK then: That is a far as we (i) will go.:sad I am not onto violating Christ's WORD of Matt.4:4 + 2 Tim. 3:16's Truth:wave --Elijah
____________


Due to the obscurity of its' escatological content, the concepts of bible commentators on this book of scripture varies and therefore I believe one can only choose that which is most applicable to your understanding, which is where the Lord will work from.

I would need direct questions to respond with answers because I'm not sure what you're asking me.

If I may share my opinion with you concerning Revelation commentary, I've found John Gill's (1697–1771) to be the most helpful to me. Below is a sample of Revelation Two.

Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen,.... Believers cannot totally and finally fall away from the grace which they have received; but they may fall into sin, and from a degree of grace, and the exercise of it, as these first and pure churches did, from some degree of their love to God, and Christ, and one another; and therefore are called upon to remember, mind, and observe from what degree of it they were fallen; in order to bring them under a conviction and acknowledgment of their evil, and a sense of their present state, and to quicken their desires after a restoration to their former one:

and repent; of their coldness and lukewarmness, of the remissness of their love, and of those evils which brought it upon them:

and do the first works; of faith and love, with the like zeal and fervour, which will show the repentance to be sincere and genuine; so the Arabic version reads, "and exercise the former works, to wit, charity" or "love." The Jews have a saying {b}, "if a man repents, do not say to him, "remember" Mynwvarx Kyvem, "thy first works";" which they seem to understand of evil works; but former good works are to be remembered and done, to show the truth of repentance for evil ones.

Or else I will come unto thee quickly; not in a spiritual way, to pay a love visit, nor in a judicial way, to take vengeance or inflict punishment, but in a providential way, to rebuke and chastise:

and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent; or thee out of the candlestick, the pastor from the church, either by persecution or by death; or else the church, and church state itself, signified by a candlestick; See Gill on "Re 1:12"; and may design a shaking and an unsettling of it, which is sometimes done by violent persecutions, and by false teachers and their doctrines, and by the divisions and contentions of saints among themselves; and by the former particularly was there a change made in the state of this apostolic church, when it passed into the Smyrnean one, which was a period of great persecution and distress; for this cannot be understood of the total removing of the church state itself quickly, no, not of Ephesus itself; for though there is not now indeed, nor has there been for many hundred years, a church of Christ in that place, yet there was one till the times of Constantine, when there was none in any of the other seven cities, and a long time after; See Gill on "Ac 20:17"; which shows, that this was not a commination or threatening of divine vengence to that church literally, but to the state of the church, which that represented; nor does it intend the utter abolition of that church, for the apostolic church still continued, though it ceased to be in the circumstances it was before.

You can bypass his introduction of each chapter and scroll down to his verse by verse commentary if you like.

http://www.ewordtoday.com/comments/revelation/gill/revelation2.htm

____________

OK then: That is a far as we (i) will go.:sad I am not onto violating Christ's WORD of Matt.4:4 + 2 Tim. 3:16's Truth:wave --Elijah
____________
 
I think in that verse Paul was describing the inner turmoil of the christian walk where the good and bad natures we all carry are at odds.

Paul would have had a special set of circumstances in that he was helping laying the foundations to what would become the church of Christ. he had a massive job to do and it required no hypocrisy in his life.

He also would have battled with huge guilt as a person for the stoning of Stephen (written in the book of Acts) and his early persecution of the believers he later joined. That might explain some of his negativity to himself. (thats my theory anyway)

I think it is good for us to relate to as we will sin but it does not mean we are no longer christians, but normal believers trying to better ourselves as we seek to become Christ like.
 
"I know nothing good lies in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no the evil I do not want to do-- this I keep doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it." Romans 7:18-20

So I was reading through my Bible today and I came accross this. It interested me because it highlights that WE SIN! It says that NOTHING GOOD lies in us so what does that make God to us? This verse really humbled me because I am not good without God. He makes me good. I love love love this verse because it does say I am a sinner but honestly God loves sinners and he forgives them so I'm pretty happy with myself. God is good for us...that is not something you see in any other religion. I love God because I find myself falling for him over and over agian every time I see a verse like this and it is absolutly amazing. So any thoughts on this verse?

I would say that these verses should be read within the context of verses 14-25, although the whole section from 7-25 is the thought that Paul is trying to convey. You show that you are properly responsive to the Holy Spirit with your comments on these verses and I would encourage you to further widen your grip on this section of scripture. It will help, when you have to deal with the perspective from some Christians, that REAL Christians do NOT sin.
God Bless you as you grow in His Word. :clap
 
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