Damnation Question

[Gendou Ikari]

I don't want to get into a whole debate about this but...

I want to know from Fundamentalists why God in all his Omnipotence, Omnipresence and Omniscience would ever have to damn anyone to hell forever? This makes God into a hopeless failure. It turns God from Omnipotence to Nigh-Omnipotence. A God of absolute sovereignty into a God of "I could have." I just want a reasonable answer to get where you are coming from.

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

I want to know from Fundamentalists…

Just curious is it necessary for such labels. I suggest you look at the book I suggested in another topic.

 

[Free]

I want to know from Fundamentalists why God in all his Omnipotence, Omnipresence and Omniscience would ever have to damn anyone to hell forever? This makes God into a hopeless failure. It turns God from Omnipotence to Nigh-Omnipotence. A God of absolute sovereignty into a God of "I could have." I just want a reasonable answer to get where you are coming from.

Firstly, you have made a considerable assumption: that God's omnipotence is negated or lessened by his sending to people to hell forever, that God becomes a "hopeless failure". What is the basis of this assumption? God's omnipotence does not in anyway contradict his sending people to hell for eternity.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

Alright then how about answering this.

1. Does the lake of fire and second death serve no purpose other than to vent God’s frustration and vengeance on most of humanity which He Himself created?

2. Would a loving God really create billions and billions of people which He knew in advance He would torture for all eternity?

3. If ninety to ninety-five percent of humanity(Estimate) is destined for this atrocious destiny, how could any sane person worship a god who would design and carry out such a vile and eternal nightmare on so many billions of helpless and weak creatures? How is this Justified?(Don't give me God's ways are higher than ours.)

 

[SputnikBoy]

God could never vindicate Himself to the living if the 'eternal torment' doctrine was a literal one.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

God could never vindicate Himself to the living if the 'eternal torment' doctrine was a literal one.

That's right, God could never justify Himself. There is no reason for it. And I dare anyone to come up with a reason.

There is either two possibilities for God.

A. He is not willing to save them; even with omnipotence. (He becomes Evil)

B. He cannot save them. (Not Omnipotent.)

 

[kwag_myers]

We already addressed this in your other thread (Psalm 136). God is not the failure, man is. Hell was never intended for man, but for Satan and his followers.

How is it that we always want to blame God for man's failures? He gave us all that we need: salvation and the power to overcome the devil. Yet, too many Christians choose to yield to their fleshly desires instead of putting their flesh to death spiritually (1 Peter 2:11; Galatians 6:8; Romans 8:7-13 & 13:14). And when they get the consequences of their choice, you want to blame God. Doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Free]

I'll have to be quick as it's almost my bedtime.

1. Does the lake of fire and second death serve no purpose other than to vent God’s frustration and vengeance on most of humanity which He Himself created?

Assumption: hell's purpose is to vent God's frustration and vengence.

2. Would a loving God really create billions and billions of people which He knew in advance He would torture for all eternity?

Assumption: God will torture people for eternity.
Assumption: God could have done it another way.

3. If ninety to ninety-five percent of humanity(Estimate) is destined for this atrocious destiny, how could any sane person worship a god who would design and carry out such a vile and eternal nightmare on so many billions of helpless and weak creatures? How is this Justified?

Assumption: people are helpless and weak.
Assumption: people who reject God don't deserve to be in hell for eternity.

God could never vindicate Himself to the living if the 'eternal torment' doctrine was a literal one.

Why should the creature even think that the Creator needs to vindicate himself? What explanation does God owe man? What explanation does man deserve?

That's right, God could never justify Himself. There is no reason for it. And I dare anyone to come up with a reason.

There is either two possibilities for God.

A. He is not willing to save them; even with omnipotence. (He becomes Evil)

Assumption: God is not willing to save everyone.
Assumption: unwillingness to save makes God evil.

B. He cannot save them. (Not Omnipotent.)

Assumption: if God cannot save all it means he is not omnipotent.

The reason I point out assumptions is to try and get people to think clearly about the issue. To me it seems that in this case there are too many assumptions being made that are not necessarily correct; evidence that the position hasn't been really thought through and belief in it should be put on hold, even if only temporarily.

 

[SputnikBoy]

God could never vindicate Himself to the living if the 'eternal torment' doctrine was a literal one.

Why should the creature even think that the Creator needs to vindicate himself? What explanation does God owe man? What explanation does man deserve?

Sputnik: I don't know that God NEEDS to vindicate Himself. However, unless God views His subjects (us) as being little more than contemptible plebs, He would make sure that we see Him as being - and having been - a JUST God. Infinite punishment for finite sins can never be seen as being 'just', whichever side of heaven one looks at it from. Yes, I'm just assuming here but I think (assuming again) that there IS a good case for assumption in regard to this issue.

 

[Free]

Infinite punishment for finite sins can never be seen as being 'just', whichever side of heaven one looks at it from.

Then it is first up to you to prove that rejection of God, rejection of the sacrifice of Christ, is in fact a "finite" sin. Is there even such a thing as a "finite" sin?

 

[von]

God doesn't condemn us, we condemn ourselves. John 3:17. Without God we would not even exist. For Him to create a world, in which Eve decided to break the rules and bring sin into, and then give us a chance at eternal life by sending His son to die for our sins shows His love for us, not condemnation.
Think about it, we are sinners and believe some of us are rotten at times. Seeing that God Holds our very breathe in His hands don't you think that if He wanted to condemn us He would've just wiped us all away? He could get rid of us and create Himself a whole new world, one without sin. He loves us and wants to give us eternal life with Him.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

Assumption: hell's purpose is to vent God's frustration and vengence.

Well, it certainly can't be helping the sinner, so it must be to satisfy God's own bloody lust or something else. Either way God's is not doing what is best for the sinner. (But shouldn't a father do what is best for their children.) Apparently God created Human fathers much better than He is a Father.

Assumption: God will torture people for eternity.

Well, eternal damnation says that God will torture people for all eternity. I'm not making this stuff up bloke. Unless you mean anihilation.

Assumption: God could have done it another way.

If He couldn't have done it another way than He is not omnipotent.

Assumption: people are helpless and weak.

Look around you, don't you see the helpless and the weak. Is God so selfish and indifferent that He doesn't care anymore?

Assumption: people who reject God don't deserve to be in hell for eternity.

Ever heard of compassion. Let's assume that someone killed your sister/brother. (Flash to years later) He is truly sorry for what he has done but you say "Sorry you could have not done it." (You shoot him in the head.)
Humans are flawed beings(No we were not created perfect) surely God with infinite wisdom and power could feel compasion on poor hopeless spirits.

Why should the creature even think that the Creator needs to vindicate himself? What explanation does God owe man? What explanation does man deserve?

God created us and we are His responsablility. I'll borrow a quote.

"Now listen carefully. Here is wisdom beyond its years. When a scientist creates an experiment or machine that malfunctions, is he responsible for the malfunction? Yes. Does he hold the experiment or machine responsible? No. Does he hold God responsible? No. Okay.

Now then, according to Christendom, when God creates an experiment or machine that malfunctions, is He responsible for the malfunction? No. Does He hold the experiment or machine responsible? Yes. Does He hold man responsible? Yes. See the wisdom?"â€â€L. Ray Smith

Assumption: God is not willing to save everyone.

If He is willing to save them and He cannot then He is not Omnipotent.

Assumption: unwillingness to save makes God evil.

It certainly does not make Him a loving Father. What good and kind Father will not go out and save His son. Again Human fathers are better than God as a Father.

 

[kwag_myers]

God created us and we are His responsablility.

Exactly why He provided salvation through Christ and power for living through the Holy Spirit. You seem to be rejecting both.

It certainly does not make Him a loving Father. What good and kind Father will not go out and save His son. Again Human fathers are better than God as a Father.

You've never raised a child, I can see that. Or if you have, they must be spoiled brats. You cannot let a child do as they wish with no regard to rules and consequences. Consider Romans 6:1-2. This is the very issue that Paul was addressing.

God is a model of what we fathers should be to our children. The fact that we (at least here in the US) live in a society that feels no responsibility for its actions. This is what you are suggesting, that there be no punishment for those who serve themselves. We have a great deal to learn from God about fatherhood.

Gendou Ikari, I suggest that you study the sonship that we have through our bother Jesus. You are missing out on a great deal of blessings from our Father who has adopted us into His heavenly family (Romans 8:15; Galatians 4:6).

 

[Gendou Ikari]

Exactly why He provided salvation through Christ and power for living through the Holy Spirit. You seem to be rejecting both.

When did I say that I reject Salvation. God has everything in control; I don't buy into all the free-will nonsense.

You've never raised a child, I can see that. Or if you have, they must be spoiled brats. You cannot let a child do as they wish with no regard to rules and consequences. Consider Romans 6:1-2. This is the very issue that Paul was addressing.

I've never raised a child. Again, I never said that the wicked should not punished. But Infinite punishment would be cruel.

God is a model of what we fathers should be to our children. The fact that we (at least here in the US) live in a society that feels no responsibility for its actions. This is what you are suggesting, that there be no punishment for those who serve themselves. We have a great deal to learn from God about fatherhood.

Gendou Ikari, I suggest that you study the sonship that we have through our bother Jesus. You are missing out on a great deal of blessings from our Father who has adopted us into His heavenly family (Romans 8:15; Galatians 4:6).

Indeed I believe that God is the model Father. He is Perfect after all. I love God. I hate this cruel tyrant that people have turned God into.

I'm going to say this right now. I'm pathetic! I'm sinful! I probably don't even derserve God! But He loves me anyway. I, in all of my pathetic wicked sinful nature, am not looked upon by God as some lowly creature that he can puppet to His own desires. He shows love and compassion for me and the rest of the world. I don't have all of the answers. I cannot even grapse the full greatness of God's infinite Love. I cannot even imagine how God could put up with our all wickedness. But I find comfort in the verse,

he who is not loving did not know God, because God is love. (1 John 4:8)

I feel worthless! I feel hopeless! But I still know that God loves me. And that He will never forsake and give up on me, even if it takes a quadrilion years.

 

[McQuacks]

It's not a difficult question for me because I do not believe that God destines people for hell, but rather that they do it themselves, by rejecting Him and choosing to live in their flesh.
I do not believe that God decides where we are destined for, but that He give us a choice. My personal belief is that God, in His love for us, created us to serve Him, but at the same time, wanted people who would truly worship Him from the heart by their own choosing. In His power He gave us free will, allowing us to make the ultimate decision of choosing Him or rejecting Him. Personally, I do not see this as a contradiction of terms, but simply God, out of His sovereign power, giving us the ability to choose, and because of His love for us, He lets us choose. 1 Timothy 2:4. I realize many would strongly disagree with that, but that's what I believe, and probably belongs for another debate. If you don't agree with those beliefs, then I honestly do not know how to address your question.
-McQ 8-)

 

[Free]

Well, it certainly can't be helping the sinner, so it must be to satisfy God's own bloody lust or something else.

Assumption: hell must be helpful to the sinner

Either way God's is not doing what is best for the sinner. (But shouldn't a father do what is best for their children.) Apparently God created Human fathers much better than He is a Father.

Assumption: God must do what is best for the sinner; that there must be some purpose for the sinner in hell.
Assumption: God is the Father of all people (see Romans 8:15)

Would it be better if God sent all unbelievers to the corner, gave them all a "timeout" or sent them to bed without dinner?

Well, eternal damnation says that God will torture people for all eternity. I'm not making this stuff up bloke. Unless you mean anihilation.

I don't mean annihilation, but I also don't think that the statement that "God will torture people for eternity" can be supported by Scripture.

If He couldn't have done it another way than He is not omnipotent.

Assumption: Omnipotence means God can do absolutely anything.

Look around you, don't you see the helpless and the weak. Is God so selfish and indifferent that He doesn't care anymore?

The whole problem is that people are not necessarily helpless and weak (I suppose we could define that, but I don't think it does anything to either of our arguments). People are strongheaded and rebellious. As has been pointed out by McQuacks -- it is they who reject God out of the hardness of their hearts.

Ever heard of compassion. Let's assume that someone killed your sister/brother. (Flash to years later) He is truly sorry for what he has done but you say "Sorry you could have not done it." (You shoot him in the head.)

Ever heard of the cross?

Humans are flawed beings(No we were not created perfect) surely God with infinite wisdom and power could feel compasion on poor hopeless spirits.

That is why he came in human flesh to die on the cross.

God created us and we are His responsablility. I'll borrow a quote.

"Now listen carefully. Here is wisdom beyond its years. When a scientist creates an experiment or machine that malfunctions, is he responsible for the malfunction? Yes. Does he hold the experiment or machine responsible? No. Does he hold God responsible? No. Okay.

Now then, according to Christendom, when God creates an experiment or machine that malfunctions, is He responsible for the malfunction? No. Does He hold the experiment or machine responsible? Yes. Does He hold man responsible? Yes. See the wisdom?"â€â€L. Ray Smith

Of course you do realize that the quote essentially puts all the blame on God for all the sins we commit. It is a deterministic position, which I reject precisely because then, yes, it wouldn't be fair since it would be God making us sin. I would also question whether or not there actually was any malfunction.

It certainly does not make Him a loving Father. What good and kind Father will not go out and save His son. Again Human fathers are better than God as a Father.

But, as I and kwag have pointed out, sonship doesn't extend to everybody. This also ignores that God sent the ultimate sacrifice to provide the way to reconciliation so that we won't go to hell.

 

[von]

If we go by your belief that God is cruel to eternally punish people and that He made earthly men better fathers than Him, well then it must have been extremely cruel for Him to send His son to die for a people who wouldn't except Him and serve Him will full dedication.

 

[Free]

Good point von. I wonder how many earthly fathers would send their sons out to die for even one other person.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

Assumption: God must do what is best for the sinner; that there must be some purpose for the sinner in hell.

If God is truly perfect and completely good then He should do what is best for the sinner. I say, what kind of pathetic Father do you worship? From this theology I can see how some people can think that God and the Devil are one. This is never going to go anywhere and that is why this stuff was banned. Before we end...

Try this! Meditate on Hell. Picture billions and billions of your fellow creatures being hopelessly burned alive for all eternity. The Pain! The Anguish! The Injustice! The Hate! All of this done by a God who is "Love." All this done by a God who is your Father, Abba, Daddy. A helpless soul cries out, "Why! Why couldn't you save me? Are you really that cruel and heartless. Or do you not have the power to save me? I thought you were omnipotent; so then you're just cruel and full of hatred for me! Why did you create me? Why! If you knew that I was going to be sentenced to hell for ever. What Injustice! What do you have to say for yourself?

God waits a minute and then replies, "You could have been saved; I don't have to care anymore than that."

 

[McQuacks]

So you think that God should feel guilty because He gave us free will? I believe that God gave us free will because He would rather have people worship Him from the heart than because they were made to, as if they were robots. If that meant that some people would still reject Him and go to hell, then at least He gives us a choice. Like someone mentioned earlier, Hell was created for the angels and demons. But when man chose to sin like Satan, it became his home as well. 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9.