Daniel’s 42nd week

[Vic C.]

Well not really, I mean I like new moons a little, sabbaths I never cared about , but being it in "end-times" I just like that you have Daniel's 70th wk. fulfilled.

Do you think that the last "half a week" was not fulfilled until AD67-70.5 for those Jews who did not follow Christ, & those holy people & that holy city got shattered in that generation?

I do.

from your post #2:
70th wk 27 – 33 AD

Ok, I know this is off topic, but what I've learned is that is just a parenthesis in the overall Daniel prophecy. It's cause and effect; Jesus caused it and it's effects became evident some 37-40 years later.

In this case, a prophetic parenthesis is warranted.

Some of us argue over any form of separation in this prophecy and I'm not about to add even one year of separation. :D

Ok, back to the topic. :yes

 

[Lehigh3]

Ok, I know this is off topic, but what I've learned is that is just a parenthesis in the overall Daniel prophecy. It's cause and effect; Jesus caused it and it's effects became evident some 37-40 years later.

In this case, a prophetic parenthesis is warranted.

Some of us argue over any form of separation in this prophecy and I'm not about to add even one year of separation. :D

Ok, back to the topic. :yes

Well Vic, since Daniel's people were the Jews, we do know (Paul said there was a remnant at the present time) that only the remnant accepted Christ by faith, & received salvation. The second half of the 70th week may indeed have been fulfilled right after the cross, through the evangelism of the apostles in that respect- & so they made an end to sin, brought in everlasting righteousness, made reconciliation for iniquity, & anointed the Most Holy. But note the rest of the prophecy- which says- even to the consummation- about the one who makes desolate.
So I do see a reference to the 1/2 week (time, times, & a half time) a gap of about 40 yrs., not for the remnant Jews, but for the Jews who were of "the synagogue of Satan." The great tribulation was "a half a week" AD 67 - 70.5. Then, the temple made with hands, fell.

So, when you say you say you "learned of" a prophetic parenthesis- I agree. But I also agreed that for the faithful remnant, the 70th week was consecutive, & they are not the focus of the time, times, & & half time of God's wrath- "poured out on the desolate."

But you conclude & say you don't hold to any separation with the 70th week at all?

I do think the time, times & a half time in Revelation alludes to that 1/2 week though for the wicked, according to the whole Seventy Week prophecy ending at the "consummation."

 

[Vic C.]

But you conclude & say you don't hold to any separation with the 70th week at all?

That is what I wrote. :yes

I understand your line of thinking, but I believe that particular 3 1/2 years (67-70AD) is outside of Daniel's main prophecy.

from Apostolic-Prophetic.com

NOTE: The rest of Daniel 9:26, referencing Titus and his army, is parenthetical to the whole prophecy (happening 35 years later). See Matt. 23:37-39; 24:1-3,34; Lk. 21:20-22. Messiah had to come BEFORE Prince Titus and his army ransacked Jerusalem (A.D. 66-70)!

This is a point I try to make when people attempt to rip Daniel's prophecy out of it's context: (from the same link

This would be a real KEY in reaching the JEWISH people with the Good News that their long-awaited Messiah has already come and died for their sins!

 

[Stormcrow]

Ok, I know this is off topic, but what I've learned is that is just a parenthesis in the overall Daniel prophecy. It's cause and effect; Jesus caused it and it's effects became evident some 37-40 years later.

In this case, a prophetic parenthesis is warranted.

Some of us argue over any form of separation in this prophecy and I'm not about to add even one year of separation. :D

Ok, back to the topic. :yes

I certainly see merits in both views (both a gap and no gap in the 70th week). However, if I were to try and justify a gap, I would do so this way (based on something Sinthesis once wrote):

Israel was promised to inherit the land given to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and when God - through Moses - delivered them out of Egypt, they were on their way to do just that.

But during the journey there, the people rebelled against God, and God told that generation they would not enter the Promised Land and so they wandered in the wilderness for 40 years until that wicked generation passed away.

Thus, there was a 40 year "gap" that came between their deliverance and the promise that would not have occurred had the people been faithful to God's plan.

So when Christ comes along - their ultimate deliverer - they rebel against God's plan of salvation but this time, instead of merely opposing Christ (as they did Moses and Aaron), they kill Him and - in the process - call His blood down upon themselves and their children (Matthew 27:25).

So now that wicked generation is told all the innocent blood shed "in the land" - including Christ's - is going to be held against them, and that they will not enter the new "promised land" (new Jerusalem), thus ushering in another 40 year gap as two things happen: they are given a chance to repent during this time but those who don't are taken out of the way, ultimately by the Romans.

Seeing things in this light seems to make more sense of this verse:

{9} The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, [NOT US] not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9 (NASB)

Interestingly, this verse comes right smack dab in the middle of a whole chapter Peter wrote about Christ's coming at the day of the Lord: a day that was put on hold for 40 years to give people a chance to repent.

Most didn't.

Thus, the "day of the Lord" came in 70 AD, which was the culmination of their "great tribulation" and the last half of Daniel's 70th week.

Anyway, that's how I see this all harmonizing with a supposed break in Daniel's 70th week.

As always, your mileage may vary.

 

[Sinthesis]

I don't see a gap in the actual 70 weeks, which ended at 33AD.

Dan 9:24 ¶ Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.​

Whose people and city? Daniel's; a Jew. At the end of the 70 weeks membership in the the people and city of God was opened to gentiles.

The rest of the prophecy extends to 70AD and perhaps even the end of the war at 73AD, but this period is not within the 70 weeks proper. This 40+- year period is a wilderness for God's people prior to entering the promised land of the Christian era.

 

[Cyberseeker]

Do you think that the last "half a week" was not fulfilled until AD67-70.5 for those Jews who did not follow Christ, & those holy people & that holy city got shattered in that generation?

I believe that particular 3 1/2 years (67-70AD) is outside of Daniel's main prophecy.
… The rest of Daniel 9:26, referencing Titus and his army, is parenthetical to the whole prophecy

I believe the same as what Vic and Sinthesis are saying. The Titus details are parenthetical to the 70-week prophecy. Incidentally LeHigh, I have noticed that some Preterist writers feel the same. Not all place the destruction of Jerusalem in the 70th week. (can’t think of the link just now )

 

[Cyberseeker]

... That decree was given in 457 B.C. and that decree alone meets the timing specifications of this prophecy. It is the only decree out of the four that occurs at the beginning of a Jubilee period (i.e. - 7 Weeks - 49 years). That is why it is worded "7 weeks and 62 weeks" rather than simply stating "69 weeks."

Good point. The Jubilees are harder to identify than what the shmita is but it can be done. And they are related as you say.

 

[Cyberseeker]

Daniels 42nd week – What happened in the midst?

Here is another observation I would like to share about Daniels 42nd week. Here are the dates again:

Year 1 – 170 BC
Year 2 – 169 BC
Year 3 – 168 BC
Year 4 – 167 BC (Mid point)
Year 5 – 166 BC
Year 6 – 165 BC
Year 7 – 164 BC (Sabbatical)​

Now as we all know, in 167 BC an ‘abomination’ was perpetrated on the temple altar. The daily sacrifice was abolished and swine flesh offered in its place. (1Maccabees 1:54) What might not be so well known is how this event happened slap-bang in the middle of one of the ‘weeks.’ Have a look at the dates. It was not just any old time but was in the midst of one of Daniels weeks.

When we first notice this we scramble to Daniel chapter nine – midst of week! abolish sacrifice! abomination! desolation!

Problem is … this aint the 70th week. It’s the 42nd week. So, what do we make of it?

Cyber

 

[Stormcrow]

It should be noted that the various chapters of Daniel are not written in chronological order. If they were, it would be: 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 8, 5, 9, 6, 10, 11, and 12.

Book of Daniel Chapter 8

I wonder if reading the book this way would make more sense. After all, chapter and verse conventions were not part of the original manuscripts.

Would reading the book in this manner help clear up confusion about some of the issues we have in understanding it?

 

[Sinthesis]

I wonder if reading the book this way would make more sense. After all, chapter and verse conventions were not part of the original manuscripts.

Would reading the book in this manner help clear up confusion about some of the issues we have in understanding it?

Does everyone know of The Book of Daniel's structure as a double chiasm?

 

[Cyberseeker]

Does everyone know of The Book of Daniel's structure as a double chiasm?

I saw an explanation of double chiasm once and it helped explain a lot I thought.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Cyberseeker

Now as we all know, in 167 BC an ‘abomination’ was perpetrated on the temple altar. The daily sacrifice was abolished and swine flesh offered in its place. (1Maccabees 1:54) What might not be so well known is how this event happened slap-bang in the middle of one of the ‘weeks.’ Have a look at the dates. It was not just any old time but was in the midst of one of Daniels weeks.

When we first notice this we scramble to Daniel chapter nine – midst of week! abolish sacrifice! abomination! desolation!

Problem is … this aint the 70th week. It’s the 42nd week. So, what do we make of it?

Nothing IMO. Even though a private interpretation may look slick and APPEAR reasonable, and even though millions of people may accept it as truth (i.e. - Antiochus IV interpretation for 'Middle of the Week' from Daniel 9 - OR '2,300 Evenings and Mornings' from Daniel 8), a private interpretation never produces the intended meaning of a prophecy. ALL of the specifications have to be met, not just something that seems to fit. As far as "scrambling to Daniel chapter 9," here are the specifications:

70 Weeks are determined upon Israel to:

1. Finish transgression
2. To put an end to sin
3. To atone for wickedness and establish everlasting righteousness
4. To seal up this vision and prophecy
5. To anoint the Messiah

From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah begins His ministry, there will be:

1. One Jubilee Period (7 Weeks = 49 years) plus 62 weeks (434 years) for a total of 483 years

2. And in the middle of the 70th week (A.D. 30), Messiah will "cut off" (Messiah will be rejected by His people and be put to death - and will put an end to the Levitical sacrifices and offerings required).

By stating 'the middle of the week' - this suggests that the 70th week also continues until the 'end of the week." The 70th Week ended in A.D. 33.

457 B.C. is a Sunday Year, and begins the 21st Jubilee Period (49 Years) from the Exodus. A.D. 33 ends the 30th Jubilee Period from the Exodus.

At any rate, to go along with an Antiochus interpretation, one would have to ignore ALL of the required specifications and accept an interpretation that merely sounds good. Just as the establishment of modern Israel in 1948 is not relevant to prophecy, neither are the events surrounding Antiochus IV - even though these events may seem (personally) to be relevant; or lead one to believe that they SHOULD be relevant. ALL of the specifications have to be met. This is also why ALL of the prophecies in the book of Daniel did NOT come to pass in A.D. 30; A.D. 33; OR A.D. 70; though some of them did. There are prophecies that still await fulfillment, because ALL of the specifications within those prophecies have not been met.

 

[Sinthesis]

Just as the establishment of modern Israel in 1948 is not relevant to prophecy, neither are the events surrounding Antiochus IV - even though these events may seem (personally) to be relevant; or lead one to believe that they SHOULD be relevant. ALL of the specifications have to be met. This is also why ALL of the prophecies in the book of Daniel did NOT come to pass in A.D. 30; A.D. 33; OR A.D. 70; though some of them did. There are prophecies that still await fulfillment, because ALL of the specifications within those prophecies have not been met.

Antiochus IV is found in Daniel Chapters 8 and 11, but not 9.

 

[Cyberseeker]

Nothing IMO. Even though a private interpretation may look slick and APPEAR reasonable,

Nothing? Even though historical FACTS identify it as one of the weeks?

At any rate, to go along with an Antiochus interpretation, one would have to ignore ALL of the required specifications and accept an interpretation that merely sounds good.

Who said I was applying the 70th week to Antiochus? Have another look at the topic title bro.

What Im asking is that we notice a connection between the 42nd and 70th weeks. And, what do we make of it? Any ideas?

 

[Stormcrow]

What Im asking is that we notice a connection between the 42nd and 70th weeks. And, what do we make of it? Any ideas?

The only connection that can be made - if there is to be one made at all - goes to the 40 year "gap" theory I posted earlier and the example of the armies of Antiochus surrounding Jerusalem and desolating it (and the Temple) as the Romans would do almost 200 years later.

That is to say, if the first half of the 70th week is fulfilled at the cross and the second half fulfilled in 67-70 AD, then the "abomination of desolation" to which Christ alludes in Matthew 24 can be seen exemplified in the acts of Antiochus' forces (Daniel 11) which were then later carried out by Titus' forces (Daniel 9, Luke 21:20.)

In other words, seeing a 40 year gap in Daniel's 70th week between the cross and fall of Jerusalem is the only conceivable way to make any connection between these events at all, as far as I can tell.

I'm not dogmatic on either side of the "gap" issue except to say that the 2,000 year+ gap of dispensationalism cannot be justified in any way, shape or form at all.

For what it's worth.

 

[Osgiliath]

I realize it was the 42nd week Cyberseeker; but my point was that even though the events surrounding Antiochus IV may appear to be prophetically significant, and appear to explain texts written of in Daniel, these events are not relevant, nor are they referred to or mentioned as far as the book of Daniel is concerned. Many significant 'historical' events occurred within the time period of the 70 weeks (457 B.C. - A.D. 33), but that does not mean all of those events are referred to in the book of Daniel, or have prophetic significance.

Sinthesis - if you are referring to Antiochus IV fulfilling the prophecy of the 2,300 evenings and mornings, I disagree. Any and every attempt to try and fudge the numbers (align 2,300 days with the actual events) come up way short, and do not align. But I guess that is for a different thread ;-)

 

[Sinthesis]

I realize it was the 42nd week Cyberseeker; but my point was that even though the events surrounding Antiochus IV may appear to be prophetically significant, and appear to explain texts written of in Daniel, these events are not relevant, nor are they referred to or mentioned as far as the book of Daniel is concerned. Many significant 'historical' events occurred within the time period of the 70 weeks (457 B.C. - A.D. 33), but that does not mean all of those events are referred to in the book of Daniel, or have prophetic significance.

Sinthesis - if you are referring to Antiochus IV fulfilling the prophecy of the 2,300 evenings and mornings, I disagree. Any and every attempt to try and fudge the numbers (align 2,300 days with the actual events) come up way short, and do not align. But I guess that is for a different thread ;-)

No need to draw a line in the sand.:wink3
Keith Hunt - Daniel's 2300 days/Sanctuary #3 - Page Three

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Sinthesis
No need to draw a line in the sand.
Keith Hunt - Daniel's 2300 days/Sanctuary #3 - Page Three

Thanks Sinthesis; maybe I'll head over to that thread if I can squeeze in a little more free time. Sounds interesting.

Originally posted by Stormcrow
I'm not dogmatic on either side of the "gap" issue except to say that the 2,000 year+ gap of dispensationalism cannot be justified in any way, shape or form at all.

For what it's worth.

Agreed. In fact, inserting a gap of ANY amount of time cannot be justified. It is artificial and contrived. Inserting a gap of however many years between the 69th week and the 70th week is like inserting a gap of however many days between Tuesday and Wednesday. The continuum of time cannot be broken. They are 70 consecutive weeks. Many people automatically think "gap" because of the way it was stated by Gabriel. But if it was not split into "7 weeks and 62 weeks", and was just written "69 weeks," the 69 weeks could have started anywhere in time (i.e. - no one would know which of the 4 decrees to start counting from). But the decree Gabriel said to look for was at the beginning of a Jubilee Period, which also HAS to begin on a Sunday Year. That is why it is worded "7 weeks and 62 weeks" rather than just stating "69 weeks."

And don't worry, there's nothing dogmatic about examining and exploring subjects in God's Word that are complicated and necessitate plenty of study and discussion. Dogmatic is being stubborn and bull-headed about something they know little or nothing about, but continue with their arrogant assertion anyway, even if the evidence is contrary to their claims. This particular thread is anything but dogmatic, so no worries. ;-)


PS - Sinthesis; I did not realize that the link you posted had to do with the ol' 2,200 - 2,300 - 2,400 days debate. I've hashed that out extensively in the past discussing the related manuscripts (i.e. LXX; Jerome's Vulgate; Vatican MS.; DSS [1QDan/a, 1QDan/b, 4QDan/a, 4QDan/b, 4QDan/c, 4QDan/d, 4QDan/e, pap6QDan], the writings of Josephus, etc.) - and I don't have the time or the energy to deal with that again LOL. In short, I disagree with the conclusions presented in that link, for NUMEROUS reasons. I'm also not a member of the SDA church - never have been - never will be; nor am I a member of any church or religious affiliation (not that you implied I was). Religious denominations have fixed creeds, and I find it difficult to be a member of an organization that stands still when the Truth is ever expanding with the passage of time. I can let go of a belief if I discover it was in error; religious denominations cannot. Just thought I'd clear that up now ;-)

 

[precepts]

Re: Daniels 2nd week – A major revival

Hi Sinthesis, Ill get to the 42nd week but first I want to discuss some of the other less known weeks that don't often get discussed. Join in if anything grabs you.

Daniels 2nd week – A major revival

Reading Nehemiah chapters 8-10 we find one of the biggest religious revivals that ever happened in the history of Israel, under the preaching of Ezra. Perhaps the reform that happened in King Josiah’s time was greater but this one was a biggie. (God, we need one now! ) The people wept; the people rejoiced; debts were cancelled and a profound revival broke out. This happened in September-October 444 BC and the impact was felt for many years after that.

What is not so well known today is how it happened in a Sabbatical year (ie. a ‘seven’) so it is related to the 70-weeks prophecy. It happened at the end of the second ‘week.’ Now, the date is confirmed from historical records because it was the 20th year of king Artaxerxes reign. But the matter of it being a Sabbath is deduced from a practice laid down in Mosaic law. Here is our clue in Deuteronomy 31:10-12.

This is what Ezra and Nehemiah were doing; they were following strictly the rule prescribed by Moses to gather the people and read the law in the month of Tishri on the seventh year. This is when revival broke out, but the point to notice: the year 444 BC was a Sabbath year.

Now, if you don’t mind me saying so, this is very significant. Why? Because it means we can calculate increments of seven from a confirmed date and uncover the rest of the 7-year cycle. Christian Bible scholars usually assume the shmita was lost but it is not lost at all. Please look at the last column in my table of dates. We are looking at actual, original Sabbath years!

Even more significant are the ramifications for students of Daniel’s prophecy. Each week ends with a Sabbath so now we know their dates. It clarifies small chronological issues enabling us to count more accurately than our nineteenth century teachers who did not have access to all the historical data. For example, a lot of prophetic theory is based on the calculations of Sir Robert Anderson who published his book, ‘The Coming Prince’ in 1895. His dates were slightly out. So was the Adventist movement slightly out, whose dates were based on chronology from the 1840’s.

In conclusion, the revival of 444 BC provides us with a solid date that unlocks the previously ‘lost’ Sabbath years. This directly impacts on our previous estimates of Daniels ‘weeks’ because they are intrinsically part of the Sabbath / Jubilee system.

Next post: The 62 weeks – Why Daniel didn’t say 69

I don't know how much my little two cents worth will help, but here's my little two cents. The hebrew calendar and our modern day calendars don't coincide. Inorder for your chart to be correct, you would have to have the date from Eden to calculate the sabbatical years, which you or the so-called Jews obviously don't have.

The third poster on this thread was right, too many antichrist spirited individuals lerking on these sites distorting the truth. But like the bible says, the last days will be like in the days of Noah., the sons of God are few.

The key to understanding prophecy is calculating the date from Eden using the orginal Genesis calendar. The 1,260 days only equals 3 1/2 yrs if the 12months carry 30 days each, 360 + 360 + 360 + 180 = 1,260 days.; times, time, and the dividing of time (360 being time).

 

[Cyberseeker]

Re: Daniels 2nd week – A major revival

The hebrew calendar and our modern day calendars don't coincide.

Whether we use the Hebrew, the Chinese, or ours, they are all governed by two unchanging things:

1. The earth takes 365.24 days to get around the sun.
2. The moon takes 354.14 days to get around the earth.

Therefore, any calendar can be made to coincide with another if we have the leap-year formula.

In order for your chart to be correct, you would have to have the date from Eden to calculate the sabbatical years

No, we only need one correct date and (if it is sure) we can then count forwards as well as backwards from that point. As it happens there are a dozen or so points where Sabbatic years are known and they all confirm eachother.

The key to understanding prophecy is calculating the date from Eden using the orginal Genesis calendar. The 1,260 days only equals 3 1/2 yrs if the 12months carry 30 days each, 360 + 360 + 360 + 180 = 1,260 days.; times, time, and the dividing of time (360 being time).

Yes, but the 360 day calendar also had leap-days inserted into it. This was necessary to keep it in step with our solar cycle of 365.24 days.