• CFN has a new look and a new theme

    "I bore you on eagle's wings, and brought you to Myself" (Exodus 19:4)

    More new themes will be coming in the future!

  • Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?

    Join For His Glory for a discussion on how

    https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/

  • CFN welcomes new contributing members!

    Please welcome Roberto and Julia to our family

    Blessings in Christ, and hope you stay awhile!

  • Have questions about the Christian faith?

    Come ask us what's on your mind in Questions and Answers

    https://christianforums.net/forums/questions-and-answers/

  • Read the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ?

    Read through this brief blog, and receive eternal salvation as the free gift of God

    /blog/the-gospel

  • Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need

    https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

[_ Old Earth _] Darwinists go ape over new education bill

Lewis

Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2005
Messages
15,483
Reaction score
621
Darwinists go ape over new education bill
e-mail to a friend | print this | link to this
Contributed by: Johnathan Osborn on 7/21/2008

The Louisiana Science Education Act, a new bill introduced to legally protect critical evaluation of evolutionary theory in classrooms, was recently passed by state legislators almost without opposition. Under the shelter of this new law, teachers can present scientific evidence against evolutionary theory to their students without fear of reprisal.

However, this new freedom has already come under verbal assaultfrommany leading Darwinists, such asBarbarra Forrest,professor of philosophy at Southeastern Louisiana University, who criticizes the bill as," A creationist bill written in creationist language."

The local chapter of the ACLU has threatened lawsuits against school boards that take advantage of their new-found freedoms, and the New York Times decried it as "an assault on Darwin."

Interestingly enough though, the "Creationist language" contained in the bill seems to be nonexistent, especially in the sections guaranteeing the teacher's rights to, "create and foster an enviroment withing public elementary and secondary schools that promotes critical thinking skills, logical analysis, and open and objective discussion of scientific theories being studied including but not limited to, evolution, the origins of life, global warming, and human cloning."

What part of this language so alarms Darwinists?Are they afraid of children learning "critical thinking and logical analysis"? Are they afraid of their oh-so-precious theory being subjected to "open and objective discussion"?

Although opponents of the bill are probably abjectly terrified of all the above, the only objection they can actually vocalize without looking absurd and bigoted is that this bill is an attempt toget the theory of Intelligent Design into schools.Intelligent Design examines much of the same evidence that the theory of evolution does,but reaches a vastly different conclusion: That an intelligent creator is responsible for the universe as we see it.

Darwinists object to allowing this theory into schools because they believe it is simply religion repackaged.

According to the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, Religion is, "Something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience."
I have met Darwisnists who "believe in and follow devotedly" their theory, as a matter of fact, I am related to one such "true believer" in evolution, and I can attest that he defends his beliefs with more vigor than many religious people I know.

According to the definition of "religion", then, he, and millions of Darwinists/atheists like him, are as deeply religious as the most devote Christian, Muslim, Hindu or Jew ever could be, and they are imposing their religion, in the garb of scientific credibility, upon the millions of children in our public schools.

There should be an open discussion about the origins and nature of the universe we inhabit. All perspectives should be heard, discussed, and evaluated in light of scientific and historical evidence. No one viewpoint or theory should be allowed to dominate any one area to the exclusion of all other viewpoints, and no theory or religion, however strongly entrenched, should be immune from critical evaluation.

Bills like the Loiusiana Science Education Act should be passed in every state, to ensure that true science is taught in our schools, and that students are taught in a tolerant enviroment that encourages dialogue and critical thinking. But in the meantime, let's all play nice.


For some good reading about the challenges facing evolutionary theory, try "Darwin's Black Box." by Michael Behe or "Icons of Evolution" By Jonathan Wells Story information derived from World magazine

http://denver.yourhub.com/CastleRock/St ... 93987.aspx
 
What part of this language so alarms Darwinists?Are they afraid of children learning "critical thinking and logical analysis"? Are they afraid of their oh-so-precious theory being subjected to "open and objective discussion"?

What we are afraid of, is subjective analysis of objective theories. Theory of evolution is not a belief, it is a fact, backed up by mountains of physical and experimental evidence. Allowing teachers teaching at an elementary level to teach their opinions as fact is a gross breach of everything that science stands for. By all means go over the evidence, but opening a door to allow a school teacher's religious beliefs to take priority over the hundred and fifty years of work recorded by some of the smartest men and women on the planet is literally poisoning the fountain of knowledge.

To make an informed decision to oppose any established scientific theory is the sort of thing the top fraction of a percent of us have the ability to do after ten years of university education, claiming that school teachers and 10 year olds are qualified to do this is an utter travesty against all rational thinking.

According to the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, Religion is, "Something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience."

By this definition the belief that one needs air to survive is also a religion. We all follow that belief with amazing fervour every day.
Evolution has nothing to do with ethics and nothing to do with conscience. It has nothing to do with the origins of like (That's abiogenesis), it has nothing to do with man's purpose on earth and it has nothing to do with any god, goddess or lack thereof.

Just like my "Religion of needing air to breathe" which all Christians, Muslims and Jews are forced to accept, so too are there thousands of Christian, Muslim and Jewish scientists who acknowledge that evolution holds true as a scientific theory. They all believe that God created mankind, but they acknowledge that they also need to breathe and that God also used evolution as a tool to fashion all the life He created.

If you want my honest opinion (I stress that opinion =/= fact) on the matter of religion and it's compatibility with religion, I would be much more impressed in a God that not only created life, but then placed it in an environment so perfectly tuned to His liking that that life-form could go forth and become every species that exists today than one who simply clapped his hands and everything sprung up ready-assembled. Can you imagine the perfection and incredible forethought that God would have needed to have so that once he created life it would go on and develop into everything that exists today, all by itself?

I suppose it's like comparing someone who can create an amazing and intricately detailed model of a ship in New York to someone who not only creates the model of the ship, but does so by placing all the pieces in the water in London so exactly that it drifts the ocean currents all the way across the sea until it arrives in precisely the spot in New York, every piece having been put into the right place by the actions of the waves. Like I said, only my opinion, but to me, the second example is much more impressive.


no theory or religion, however strongly entrenched, should be immune from critical evaluation.

Too true, and no theory ever has been immune to critical evaluation. Evolution has been under critical evaluation by the cream of humanity's academic community for over 150 years. So far they've found nothing wrong with it and it's insulting to their fine efforts to make the assumption that a bunch of schoolkids and teachers could turn up anything to contradict that which hasn't already been thoroughly explored.

On subjects like cloning and such, I think it is fine to introduce a unit on ethics into it. For many scientific professions, good ethics are a critical part of succeeding. However, ethics only apply to subjective matters, when there is a moral dilemma as to what should be done. You can say "I don't like these facts" and you can discuss if people in the class like the facts, but in the end they are facts and your opinions do not hold merit as scientific evidence unless they are supported by material evidence.

~Xolotl
 
The article contains the usual distortions, strawmen and general confusion that Creationists wallow in.

There's one particular point I have no problem with:

teachers can present scientific evidence against evolutionary theory

The entire scientific evidence against TOE is listed below:

.
.
.
 
XolotlOfMictlan said:
Theory of evolution is not a belief, it is a fact, backed up by mountains of physical and experimental evidence.[/quote

If it is a fact why is it still called a theory? I thought once a theory was proven as fact it was no longer a theory. This of course is my theory.
 
XolotlOfMictlan said:
Theory of evolution is not a belief, it is a fact,

Hmm the very kind of "just accept this as some kind of REVEALED TRUTH" argument that Patterson condemned among Darwinists.

Of course it is "backed up by mountaints of junk-science hoaxes and frauds" so maybe that is a good reason for "ignoring the facts and accepting the doctrines of darwinism anyway".

As for the non-science anti-knowledge embedded in the "story telling" we call Darwinism... here is a well respected Atheist Darwinist ADDRESSING that point.

(Watch other Atheists Darwinist devotees RUN from that point!)

Evolution AS FAITH

Colin Patterson (Senior paleontologist at the British Natural History Museum and author of the Museum’s general text on evolution)

A 1981 lecture presented at New York City's American Museum of Natural History

[quote:e6218]
Colin PATTERSON:

"...I'm speaking on two subjects, evolutionism and creationism, and I believe it's true to say that I know nothing whatever about either...One of the reasons I started taking this anti-evolutionary view,well, let's call it non-evolutionary , was last year I had a sudden realization.

"For over twenty years I had thought that I was working on evolution in some way. One morning I woke up, and something had happened in the night, and it struck me that I had been working on this stuff for twenty years, and there was not one thing I knew about it. "That was quite a shock that one could be misled for so long...

It does seem that the level of knowledge about evolution is remarkably shallow. We know it ought not to be taught in high school, and perhaps that's all we know about it...

about eighteen months ago...I woke up and I realized that all my life I had been duped into taking evolutionism as revealed truth in some way."

Patterson - again quoting Gillespie accusing that those "'...holding creationist ideas could plead ignorance of the means and affirm only the fact,'" Patterson countered, "That seems to summarize the feeling I get in talking to evolutionists today. They plead ignorance of the means of transformation, but affirm only the fact: 'Yes it has...we know it has taken place.'"

"...Now I think that many people in this room would acknowledge that during the last few years, if you had thought about it at all, you've experienced a shift from evolution as knowledge to evolution as faith. I know that's true of me, and I think it's true of a good many of you in here...

"...Evolution not only conveys no knowledge, but seems somehow to convey anti-knowledge [/u], apparent knowledge which is actually harmful to systematics..."

[/quote:e6218]

(BTW I really do appreaciate Patterson's term above... "evolutionISM")

No wonder Louisianna decided to "ALLOW" criticism of such a junk-science religion "without obligatory dark-ages style reprisal".

Bob
 
However Darwinists are "as predictible as the rain in April". They surely will find science-illiterate creative-history-wannabe judge SOME place to "INSIST on reprisals" for anyone daring to speak blasphemously against the orthodoxy of darwinist dogma.

We shall see! ;-)

Bob
 
The Bill is already dead. The language has been previously declared unconstitutional. It might pass and be signed, but the first challenge will sink it.

There is no constitutional way to do what they are trying to do.
 
KenEOTE said:
XolotlOfMictlan said:
Theory of evolution is not a belief, it is a fact, backed up by mountains of physical and experimental evidence.[/quote

If it is a fact why is it still called a theory? I thought once a theory was proven as fact it was no longer a theory. This of course is my theory.

You mean like gravity, which we're still unsure of, right? Evolution is a fact. Even Bob would agree with that. Creationists just draw distinctions like saying that speciation cannot occur, even though they outline no mechanism that would prevent it.
 
KenEOTE said:
XolotlOfMictlan said:
Theory of evolution is not a belief, it is a fact, backed up by mountains of physical and experimental evidence.

If it is a fact why is it still called a theory? I thought once a theory was proven as fact it was no longer a theory. This of course is my theory.
[/quote]

you do not understand what a scientific theory is.

I suggest you read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory

The common everyday use of the word "theory" is vastly different than when used in the context of science.
 
The Barbarian said:
The Bill is already dead. The language has been previously declared unconstitutional. It might pass and be signed, but the first challenge will sink it.

There is no constitutional way to do what they are trying to do.

I love it -- Darwinists argue "there is no constutional way to allow challenges to Darwinist myths WITHOUT REPRISALS" --

The little world they live in is soooo amusing! ;-)

Nex thing you know they will be telling us "there is no constitutional way to allow the Academic freedom to follow the data where it leads -- unless you geet a promise that those scientific efforts will be sure to pander to atheism by never offering a challenge to the dogma of darwinism"


Evolution AS FAITH

Colin Patterson (Senior paleontologist at the British Natural History Museum and author of the Museum’s general text on evolution)

A 1981 lecture presented at New York City's American Museum of Natural History

[quote:91a88]
Colin PATTERSON:

It does seem that the level of knowledge about evolution is remarkably shallow. We know it ought not to be taught in high school, and perhaps that's all we know about it...

about eighteen months ago...I woke up and I realized that all my life I had been duped into taking evolutionism as revealed truth in some way."

[/quote:91a88]

(BTW I really do appreaciate Patterson's term above... "evolutionISM")


Bob
 
KenEOTE said:
XolotlOfMictlan said:
Theory of evolution is not a belief, it is a fact, backed up by mountains of physical and experimental evidence.

If it is a fact why is it still called a theory? I thought once a theory was proven as fact it was no longer a theory. This of course is my theory.

The term theory is used in science as the highest acknowledgement of truth. Hence we have:

Theory of Gravitation
Atomic Theory
Quantum Theory
Theory of Evolution

This is one of the greatest strengths of science that YEC's like to turn against it - Science admits mistakes. If in 50 years time, technological advancements show a theory to be false, it will we dropped. Hence we award the term 'theory' to indicate the ideas which are as close as we can get to perfect - but also acknowledging our willingness to change them if mistakes are identified.
 
Equivocating between "Gravity and the junk-science religion we call atheist Darwinism" is a favorite toy fallacy of darwinists.

But as we see - "No piltdown man in Gravity" no "Neanderthal age/date fraud in Gravity" no "fraudulent horse series that never happend in nature -- in gravity" no "Nebraska man used to swing a court case --- in gravity" ...

All the normal stack of "junk-science frauds" conspicuously missing when the issue is REAL science -- not JUNK science atheist-orthodoxy as we see in darwinism.

OR as Patterson called it "evolutionISM"

Bob
 
Bob, I see no reason to write a proper reply to you on this subject. You have already dug your own grave for your argument by continuing to make Patterson quotations even after they have been explained to you.

Every time you quote Patterson without actually understanding his words, I'm going to ignore you. =P

Science does not create frauds, we make mistakes, we acknowledge our mistakes and then we fix them.
 
XolotOfMictlan, you are an incredibly patient person. I can certainly understand that you've reached your limit with our resident troll (which I highly suspect is the evolution of our previous troll; Heidi)
 
XolotlOfMictlan said:
Science does not create frauds...

What is this science you refer to? The technologies devised by man? If by man I can hardly vouch for it's perfection or any immunity against corruption.
 
Potluck said:
XolotlOfMictlan said:
Science does not create frauds...

What is this science you refer to? The technologies devised by man? If by man I can hardly vouch for it's perfection or any immunity against corruption.

Whenever man is involved in any practice there is always potential for corruption. I cannot think of one organisation that would be immune from any form of corruption.

However, science itself is very efficient at weeding out lies from it's midst. Whilst researchers under heavy pressure to produce results in commercial science have been known to misrepresent data, this is usually discovered and announced by the first person to repeat the experiment. When you make a discovery, you have to report and detail it in the peer-literature journals. If the discovery is of any significant calibre, it will be scrutinised and any experiments repeated. Being a particularly cannibalistic lot, if you've messed up, there's no way you won't be hearing about it.

It's like those guys who claimed they'd discovered cold fusion back in the 90's. Others examined their claims, found their results impossible to repeat and they were dismissed as frauds. Science is an evolution of knowledge where only the best ideas survive. It polices itself to remove those who would pervert its name with lies.
 
Deep Thought said:
XolotOfMictlan, you are an incredibly patient person. I can certainly understand that you've reached your limit with our resident troll (which I highly suspect is the evolution of our previous troll; Heidi)

*sigh*
I had to try. Such ignorance, if it's genuine just couldn't be ignored. However, I think now would be as good a time as any to declare victory and only reply in length only if he has something new to say which hasn't been killed in other posts. Trying to teach high-school science to a creationist is obviously not something I'm very good at and if he decides he has an interest in learning about the subject either he can go over the posts I sent him or he can ask someone else, since I've already told him at least twice.

I only hope for the sake of all that is good in the world that people like him don't get into power in America (A not entirely unlikely prospect seeing as the ability to close one's eyes, cover one's ears and forge on blindly, facts and logic be damned is arguably what makes a good politician).

Thanks for your support though =)
 
BobRyan said:
Equivocating between "Gravity and the junk-science religion we call atheist Darwinism" is a favorite toy fallacy of darwinists.

But as we see - "No piltdown man in Gravity" no "Neanderthal age/date fraud in Gravity" no "fraudulent horse series that never happend in nature -- in gravity" no "Nebraska man used to swing a court case --- in gravity" ...

All the normal stack of "junk-science frauds" conspicuously missing when the issue is REAL science -- not JUNK science atheist-orthodoxy as we see in darwinism.

OR as Patterson called it "evolutionISM"

Bob

any time he posts just ask him to show us where the data for ID leads. Show us some of the theories.

He usually ignores you or goes to a new thread at that point. Though once he went on a vague ramble about Electromag waves, without ever fully explaining it. Just vague allusions.
 
"Such ignorance, if it's genuine just couldn't be ignored."

To all,
Please check the insults at the door.
There's been a bit too much of that going on in here lately and it needs to stop.

TOS said:
5 - Respect each other's opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities.

6 - No Bashing of other members. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.
 
Back
Top