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David Copperfield

Okay one more, try to explain this, ....I know where there is what the locals call a mana stone (mana in Tahitian means power), I'm very good friends with the man who has the stone in his yard, in fact I built him a new house because he wanted to move away from that house where the mana stone is located because of all of the strange things that happened, children sick, wife sick, pets died, objects moved around in the house, on top of that most of the local celebrity witches and warlocks would come to the stone, lay their hands on it and receive power, afterwards they left gifts of fruit and veggies on his porch, but wait, it gets better, they all knew the stone was there, he recounted many times tourists from all over the world would come to his house and say they were driving by on the road (about 1/4 mile away) and turned around because they felt the power and asked if they could look around in the yard (he knew what they were looking for, but didn't tell them where it was), everyone of them went directly to the mana stone and layed their hands on it to receive power, afterwards, upon questioning them, it was disclosed they were into some form of occultic practice.

Let me say this, I believe in Almighty God and because of the washing by the shed blood of His Son, Jesus Christ I'm a born again child of God, I don't go looking for demons and I don't believe there is a demon behind every door, but at the same time I can't ignore their presence, I was air dropped behind enemy lines, so to speak, I have many of the Lord's angels surrounding me, protecting me, ...everywhere in the Word we see angels shining bright, that means I'm like a spotlight, my presence and whereabouts are very clear in this darkness.

I'll give you my perception, personal opinion of what I think happened at Copperfield's performances, I eluded to it in a previous post.

Paul warns us not to let any man deceive us,

Let no man deceive you by any means... 2Th 2:3

Deceive is an interesting word, here's what Strong's has to say,

G1818
exapataō
ex-ap-at-ah'-o
From G1537 and G538; to seduce wholly: - beguile, deceive.

Beguile, where do we find that word in the Bible, and according to the Law of First Mentioned, where it's first mentioned is the signification of the word throughout the Bible.

...And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. Gen 3:13

Again, what does Strong's say?

H5377
nâshâ'
naw-shaw'
A primitive root; to lead astray, that is, (mentally) to delude, or (morally) to seduce: - beguile, deceive, X greatly, X utterly.

Now let's look at the two words that are used in the Greek to make the word Paul used, translated deceived in our English bibles.

G1537
ek, ex
A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence motion or action proceeds), from, out (of place, time or cause; literally or figuratively; direct or remote):

G538
apataō
ap-at-ah'-o
Of uncertain derivation; to cheat, that is, delude: - deceive.

Armed with that info we need to begin at the beginning, where is the origin of this deception, beguilement?

Paul tells us,

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan.... 2 Th 2:9

And what are the workings that satan does?

...with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish 2 Th 2:9. 10

How do I believe Copperfield made the jet disappear, ...he didn't, satan worked with his power to beguile (remember it's mental), deceive the audience into thinking it had disappeared, ....don't scoff, who are the people that are deceived? :twocents

because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.2 Th 2:10

They are already in darkness, satan's arena, how much more difficult would it be for him to deceive them some more?

I'm not afraid of satan because my Jesus stands between him and me and I don't bring a railing accusation against either, I do know he is there just waiting for the opportunity,

...but to say he isn't there, explain away his workings with science when the Word says he is the most powerful supernatural being ever created and he is working on planet earth today???
 
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Karl said:
Okay one more, try to explain this, ....I know where there is what the locals call a mana stone (mana in Tahitian means power), I'm very good friends with the man who has the stone in his yard, in fact I built him a new house because he wanted to move away from that house where the mana stone is located because of all of the strange things that happened, children sick, wife sick, pets died, objects moved around in the house, on top of that most of the local celebrity witches and warlocks would come to the stone, lay their hands on it and receive power, afterwards they left gifts of fruit and veggies on his porch, but wait, it gets better, they all knew the stone was there, he recounted many times tourists from all over the world would come to his house and say they were driving by on the road (about 1/4 mile away) and turned around because they felt the power and asked if they could look around in the yard (he knew what they were looking for, but didn't tell them where it was), everyone of them went directly to the mana stone and layed their hands on it to receive power, afterwards, upon questioning them, it was disclosed they were into some form of occultic practice.

Let me say this, I believe in Almighty God and because of the washing by the shed blood of His Son, Jesus Christ I'm a born again child of God, I don't go looking for demons and I don't believe there is a demon behind every door, but at the same time I can't ignore their presence, I was air dropped behind enemy lines, so to speak, I have many of the Lord's angels surrounding me, protecting me, ...everywhere in the Word we see angels shining bright, that means I'm like a spotlight, my presence and whereabouts are very clear in this darkness.

I'll give you my perception, personal opinion of what I think happened at Copperfield's performances, I eluded to it in a previous post.

Paul warns us not to let any man deceive us,

Let no man deceive you by any means... 2Th 2:3

Deceive is an interesting word, here's what Strong's has to say,

G1818
exapataō
ex-ap-at-ah'-o
From G1537 and G538; to seduce wholly: - beguile, deceive.

Beguile, where do we find that word in the Bible, and according to the Law of First Mentioned, where it's first mentioned is the signification of the word throughout the Bible.

...And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. Gen 3:13

Again, what does Strong's say?

H5377
nâshâ'
naw-shaw'
A primitive root; to lead astray, that is, (mentally) to delude, or (morally) to seduce: - beguile, deceive, X greatly, X utterly.

Now let's look at the two words that are used in the Greek to make the word Paul used, translated deceived in our English bibles.

G1537
ek, ex
A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence motion or action proceeds), from, out (of place, time or cause; literally or figuratively; direct or remote):

G538
apataō
ap-at-ah'-o
Of uncertain derivation; to cheat, that is, delude: - deceive.

Armed with that info we need to begin at the beginning, where is the origin of this deception, beguilement?

Paul tells us,

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan.... 2 Th 2:9

And what are the workings that satan does?

...with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish 2 Th 2:9. 10

How do I believe Copperfield made the jet disappear, ...he didn't, satan worked with his power to beguile (remember it's mental), deceive the audience into thinking it had disappeared, ....don't scoff, who are the people that are deceived? :twocents

because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.2 Th 2:10

They are already in darkness, satan's arena, how much more difficult would it be for him to deceive them some more?

I'm not afraid of satan because my Jesus stands between him and me and I don't bring a railing accusation against either, I do know he is there just waiting for the opportunity,

...but to say he isn't there, explain away his workings with science when the Word says he is the most powerful supernatural being ever created and he is working on planet earth today???
Click to expand...

I think you really believe this. You're not trolling, or got caught on the wrong side of an argument, you really believe this. I don't know what to say.

Gary, are these your beliefs as well?
 
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KevinK said:
I think you really believe this. You're not trolling, or got caught on the wrong side of an argument, you really believe this. I don't know what to say.

Gary, are these your beliefs as well?
Click to expand...

Bro I have to ask this, you said you are worried about me, ...I'm worried about you,

...do you believe the story of Moses in Pharaoh's court and his magicians performing magic by the power of satan?
How about Simon and his sorcery? Acts 8:9

More important is God pronouncing the death sentence on a sorcerer/witch,

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Exo 22:18

Are you saying God's Word is wrong?
 
Karl said:
Bro I have to ask this, you said you are worried about me, ...I'm worried about you,

...do you believe the story of Moses in Pharaoh's court and his magicians performing magic by the power of satan?
How about Simon and his sorcery? Acts 8:9

More important is God pronouncing the death sentence on a sorcerer/witch,

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Exo 22:18

Are you saying God's Word is wrong?
Click to expand...
Well, I was worried because I initially thought you were just being stubborn, but now I think you genuinely believe that entertainment magic is the real deal.

My scientific explanantions extend only to modern stage magic. I am not including Biblical magic in the same category.
 
KevinK said:
Well, I was worried because I initially thought you were just being stubborn, but now I think you genuinely believe that entertainment magic is the real deal.

My scientific explanantions extend only to modern stage magic. I am not including Biblical magic in the same category.
Click to expand...

Kevin, I understand what you are saying and I agree some is slight of hand, but to say none is demonic I can't agree with, Jesus said the end times would be like the days of Noah and back then demonic manifestations were the norm (hey mom, hey dad, this is my boyfriend, ...he's a demon). Tahiti is mild compared to places like Haiti or India, ...the Word says it's coming, it's becoming more and more prevalent in the World, ...that's what I'm saying, we as Christians, are not to be friends with the world or practice or participate in what the world does as it continues into it's downward spiral to total debauchery.
 
Karl said:
Kevin, I understand what you are saying and I agree some is slight of hand, but to say none is demonic I can't agree with, Jesus said the end times would be like the days of Noah and back then demonic manifestations were the norm (hey mom, hey dad, this is my boyfriend, ...he's a demon). Tahiti is mild compared to places like Haiti or India, ...the Word says it's coming, it's becoming more and more prevalent in the World, ...that's what I'm saying, we as Christians, are not to be friends with the world or practice or participate in what the world does as it continues into it's downward spiral to total debauchery.
Click to expand...
Well, I agree with some of what you just said. One thing, though, I'm not saying all of it is non-demonic, I'm saying as a class most of it is ("it" being mainstream stage illusion). There's a big difference between all and most.

I'm really baffled how you and Mr. Gary can be shown how some magic tricks are accomplished, along with scientific explanation, and still think it's demonic influence.
 
KevinK said:
I'm really baffled how you and Mr. Gary can be shown how some magic tricks are accomplished, along with scientific explanation, and still think it's demonic influence.
Click to expand...

That's because you've been brainwashed into believing that it's all smoke and mirrors.

.
 
Gary said:
And there's the rub. Many of these things cannot be explained away.
Click to expand...
Well, I agree with that. I'm just saying that most, if not all, entertainment magic, is based on science and sleight-of-hand.

Do you think Dynamo really walked on water, or Plexiglas®?
 
KevinK said:
Do you think Dynamo really walked on water, or Plexiglas®?
Click to expand...

No one's been able to show that it's a fake. That video with the Plexiglas walkway in the swimming pool was made to show how Criss Angel walked on water. Standing water and moving water are two totally different obstacles that need to be overcome. If Dynamo had used a transparent walkway, think of all the red tape he would have to go through before attempting that trick. One can't just run down and start building something under the water.

:shrug

.
 
Gary said:
No one's been able to show that it's a fake. That video with the Plexiglas walkway in the swimming pool was made to show how Criss Angel walked on water. Standing water and moving water are two totally different obstacles that need to be overcome. If Dynamo had used a transparent walkway, think of all the red tape he would have to go through before attempting that trick. One can't just run down and start building something under the water.

:shrug

.
Click to expand...

You left out....,

without anyone seeing him build it.....

Kevin, I do believe some stage magic is explainable, but there is some that just can't be explained that I believe falls into the lying wonders category.
 
Kevin, I'm not a troll (what ever that is), as a Christian brother I'm following what Paul teaches,

Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices. 2Co 2:11

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 1Th 5:2-6

I'm just soberly watching, that's all bro,

Can I ask one last question?

The New Testament makes it clear as the end approaches there will be signs, miracles and lying wonders performed by the power of satan, you have already said you believe there is demonic power demonstrated in the miracles of the Bible (Jannes & Jambres, Simon), so, .....if your spending you time explaining magic scientifically, ...how will you know when to stop and believe it's real demonic power so that you can warn others of the danger?
 
Karl said:
Kevin, I'm not a troll (what ever that is), as a Christian brother I'm following what Paul teaches,

Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices. 2Co 2:11

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 1Th 5:2-6

I'm just soberly watching, that's all bro,

Can I ask one last question?

The New Testament makes it clear as the end approaches there will be signs, miracles and lying wonders performed by the power of satan, you have already said you believe there is demonic power demonstrated in the miracles of the Bible (Jannes & Jambres, Simon), so, .....if your spending you time explaining magic scientifically, ...how will you know when to stop and believe it's real demonic power so that you can warn others of the danger?
Click to expand...
OK, I believe you're genuine. I also understand your concern over demonic escalation in the End Times, and it's a good concern. When I stop is simple- when I see something that can't be explained by science or trickery. Thus far, I haven't seen anything I can't explain.

Adding another thing- I fully believe that demonic forces are at work in the world. Just not through magic tricks. Satan's smart. He knows that's the first place a person might look. He's more subtle, like pushing violence and sex on primetime t.v., that kind of thing.
 
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Lewis said:
I have watched David Copperfield many times on TV and because I like what he does' does that hold me in error ? Every time we see a magician or go to a show are we in sin ? Even though we are not doing it ourselves ? I don't go to the shows or seek them out, but if I see a good one on TV I watch them because to me it is nothing but entertainment. But is it entertainment from the devil ?
Click to expand...

I don't believe there is anything wrong in what real magicians do or for a person to enjoy the entertainment that a magician brings. Because real magicians don't practice magic or anything evil, they're no more than men/women who are very highly skilled in practicing tricks that are so unbelievable that one would dare to imagine they just witnessed real magic - which is the whole purpose of magicians. Their goal is to fool you with complex but perfectly explainable tricks (although a real magician doesn't ever give away his trick's secret, lol).

An illusionist is where you want to be leery. I wouldn't recommend anyone to dabble in practicing illusions or open themselves up in any way to such a thing. ...There's a big difference between an illusionist and a magician.
 
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