Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Dead To The World

Well, of course there's truth in what you say. But to me it's entirely too cynical. I don't think Luther's concern was at all political. His interest was never to divide up the Catholic Empire, nor to set Protestant states against Catholic states. This was simply the only alternative to his being burned at the stake for trying to lead people to Christ, and not buy their way into Heaven.
That doesn't matter, the road to hell is paved with good intentions, except in this case it's more like a road to freedom. What you called the "Catholic Empire" crumbled, they were digging their own grave with this indulgence sales, Luther was just a catalyst of this inevitable historic process. It's not like I'm purposefully denying its theological element, buying your way to heaven is a scam through and through, regardless of your perspective. You know, "working your way to heaven" at least holds some water, Jesus taught us to be a doer not just a hearer of God's words; but you can't find anything in the bible to support "buying your way to heaven", in fact somewhere in Acts there was a guy who explored the possibility of buying his salvation, and he was mercilessly busted by the disciples. Indulgence sales was exactly that, you can't make this stuff up.
 
Last edited:
Well, of course there's truth in what you say. But to me it's entirely too cynical. I don't think Luther's concern was at all political. His interest was never to divide up the Catholic Empire, nor to set Protestant states against Catholic states. This was simply the only alternative to his being burned at the stake for trying to lead people to Christ, and not buy their way into Heaven.
Just wanted to share with you that Luther's primary goal was to expose Catholicism's false teachings. He was the former of Protestantism, which is the way for true teachings of Scripture. Catholicism has numerous anti-Christian teachings that needed to be brought out. There are so many false teachings in this religion that renders it non-Christian.

Teachings like "Immaculate Conception," which (if you look in the dictionary) teaches Mary was sinless, which is probably their most decadent doctrine. It has always been masquerading as a Christian religion and has many teachings that are not Christian; many do not read and study the Scriptures thereby not seeing the truth of this denomination.
 
Just wanted to share with you that Luther's primary goal was to expose Catholicism's false teachings. He was the former of Protestantism, which is the way for true teachings of Scripture. Catholicism has numerous anti-Christian teachings that needed to be brought out. There are so many false teachings in this religion that renders it non-Christian.

Teachings like "Immaculate Conception," which (if you look in the dictionary) teaches Mary was sinless, which is probably their most decadent doctrine. It has always been masquerading as a Christian religion and has many teachings that are not Christian; many do not read and study the Scriptures thereby not seeing the truth of this denomination.
I would only differ slightly. Luther's original purpose was not anti-Catholic. But it ended up being there specifically because Catholics vehementy opposed what for Luther was explicit biblical doctrine.

Luther felt he found the key to avoiding Christian Nominalism, aka a "dead faith." To know Christ personally by faith was central to the Christian faith, and took place simply by submission to the fact Christ can do what we ourselves cannot do. We accept his Justification by his Atonement, and not by anything we can do without him.

Catholics doubled down on their opposition to Luther's complaints, in particular his concern about "Indulgences." Even worse, they were duplicitous and tried to maneuver Luther into coming into a trap where he would be burned at the stake.

Luther realized how corrupt Catholic leadership had become in his time, and perhaps wrote off all Catholics for all time at that point? He identified them as "the Antichrist."

Those who departed from this Nominal Faith, replete with "substitutes for Christ," could find regeneration in his doctrine of "Faith Only." In other words, Salvation by "Christ Only," and not by the Works and Traditions of Catholic exclusivity.

My own view of Catholicism is that it is not "the Antichrist," though some elements of it are, to me, Antichristian. As you suggest, Mary's Immaculate Conception is non-Christian and can lead some to a virtual antiChristian proposition that any non-Catholic view is corrupt and lost. That is "Antichristian."

There are a number of wrongs in the Catholic Church, the absolute authority of the Pope when he speaks "from his throne," the exclusivity of the Catholic Church, the perpetual virginity of Mary, Mary being the "Queen of Heaven," prayers to the saints, and the veneration of religious tradition as a substitute for genuine Faith, etc.

However, many churches have problems with their congregations and with their own exclusive traditions. Where do we draw the line? A "High Church" is a State Church and naturally includes believers and unbelievers in its Congregation!

I would say that Protestants did the right thing in drawing a line between them and the Catholic Church. One must reform traditions that create non-biblical guidelines to living in Faith.

I won't call all Catholics non-Christian. But I would warn them of the sectarian spirit within Catholicism, because clearly, Paul condemned that!
 
Just wanted to share with you that Luther's primary goal was to expose Catholicism's false teachings. He was the former of Protestantism, which is the way for true teachings of Scripture. Catholicism has numerous anti-Christian teachings that needed to be brought out. There are so many false teachings in this religion that renders it non-Christian.

Teachings like "Immaculate Conception," which (if you look in the dictionary) teaches Mary was sinless, which is probably their most decadent doctrine. It has always been masquerading as a Christian religion and has many teachings that are not Christian; many do not read and study the Scriptures thereby not seeing the truth of this denomination.
Those false teachings had been around for centuries, most people didn't question, didn't care, didn't understand since they only preached in Latin, they just played along to get along, it's not like everyone was an assiduous Berean who scrutinized what they heard from the pulpit through the lens of the Scripture. But this indulgences was blatant corruption, previously they put ecclesiastical offices for sale, this time they put eternal salvation of the soul for sale; previously the rich and powerful could buy their way into the church system, now they could buy their way into heaven, that torpedoed the Catholic church's reputation, betrayed everything it stood for, and that could not be tolerated. Luther exposed this scam because he cared, he was like an Elijah speaking truth to power.
 
However, many churches have problems with their congregations and with their own exclusive traditions. Where do we draw the line? A "High Church" is a State Church and naturally includes believers and unbelievers in its Congregation!
I'm not sure many who attend Catholic services know much of the sacraments, which are anti-Christin, e.g. the clergy believe one is reborn by the sacrament of "Baptism;" they believe that the sacrament of "Confirmation" seals one with the Holy Spirit (but this is done in rebirth); during the sacrament of the "Eucharist" (communion) they believe Christ literally enters the bread and wine, as if sacrificing Him again; "Reconciliation" offer us forgiveness for the times we have sinned and turned away from God, which is another thing done in rebirth; "Anointing of the Sick" is the belief that it is Jesus who touches the sick to heal them from sin; "Holy Orders," one of the holy orders is "Excommunication," which teaches only baptized men can receive the sacrament of Holy Orders, and women who attempt to receive it, or those who try to ordain them, are excommunicated.
 
this time they put eternal salvation of the soul for sale; previously the rich and powerful could buy their way into the church system, now they could buy their way into heaven,
Yes, this is done by paying for the attempt to pray one out of "purgatory" and into heaven.
 
I'm not sure many who attend Catholic services know much of the sacraments, which are anti-Christin, e.g. the clergy believe one is reborn by the sacrament of "Baptism;" they believe that the sacrament of "Confirmation" seals one with the Holy Spirit (but this is done in rebirth); during the sacrament of the "Eucharist" (communion) they believe Christ literally enters the bread and wine, as if sacrificing Him again; "Reconciliation" offer us forgiveness for the times we have sinned and turned away from God, which is another thing done in rebirth; "Anointing of the Sick" is the belief that it is Jesus who touches the sick to heal them from sin; "Holy Orders," one of the holy orders is "Excommunication," which teaches only baptized men can receive the sacrament of Holy Orders, and women who attempt to receive it, or those who try to ordain them, are excommunicated.
Yes, those who don't have a very intimate relationship with Christ by the Spirit resort to clumsy, unbiblical explanations which otherwise are easily explained by the power of God. As a church group ages in history, these bizarre explanations become commonly accepted and then institutionalized by the leadership. Sad, but I think it can happen with any Christian denomination. The religious entity must fight to remain fresh, and in close communion with the Lord. Then there will be less ambiguity, and more biblical statements of faith.
 
Yes, this is done by paying for the attempt to pray one out of "purgatory" and into heaven.
If there were a purgatory, then our short life in this world is a purgatory. It has been a traditional theological view that the Garden of Eden was our original home, we are all on an exile like a hero's journey, you know, started with a triggering event as the "call to adventure", usually forced by circumstances that took the hero by surprise, but eventually he understood this journey, completed his mission, and returned to home. That is our mortal life, not an afterlife in a fictional underworld.
 
Yes, those who don't have a very intimate relationship with Christ by the Spirit resort to clumsy, unbiblical explanations
Yes, I'm referring to the so called clergy--pope, cardinals, bishops, priests, nuns, etc. who have no relationship with God and are not in Crist!
Sad, but I think it can happen with any Christian denomination.
Not with true Christians, they only increase in their faith and in their fellowship with God; they are "caused" by Him to "please" Him (Phl 2:13), as "He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ," and this without fail.
The religious entity must fight to remain fresh, and in close communion with the Lord.
I like to see our relationship as "resting" in God, not struggling, just always trusting Him as He guides us.
 
It has been a traditional theological view that the Garden of Eden was our original home,
We must realize that all that transpired with the Tree of Knowledge and sin was anticipated by God, for He knew they would partake of the Tree. It's my understanding that it was so we would fully understand His holiness, for Adam and Eve did not know yet what was evil, until they ate the fruit (Gen 3:7).
 
We must realize that all that transpired with the Tree of Knowledge and sin was anticipated by God, for He knew they would partake of the Tree. It's my understanding that it was so we would fully understand His holiness, for Adam and Eve did not know yet what was evil, until they ate the fruit (Gen 3:7).
Of course it was anticipated, what else do you think he meant by "fill the earth and subdue it"?
 
Yes, I'm referring to the so called clergy--pope, cardinals, bishops, priests, nuns, etc. who have no relationship with God and are not in Crist!

Not with true Christians, they only increase in their faith and in their fellowship with God; they are "caused" by Him to "please" Him (Phl 2:13), as "He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ," and this without fail.

I like to see our relationship as "resting" in God, not struggling, just always trusting Him as He guides us.
Yes, there is the aspect of "resting in him." We are not operating "in our own strength" when we serve Christ.

But there is also the "military" aspect, which is not "carnal warfare," but actually a determination to overcome the flesh by the power of the Spirit.

1 Tim 6.12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
 
Yes, there is the aspect of "resting in him." We are not operating "in our own strength" when we serve Christ.

But there is also the "military" aspect, which is not "carnal warfare," but actually a determination to overcome the flesh by the power of the Spirit.

1 Tim 6.12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
Amen, we as much as possible work in Christ's strength and not our own. We cancel out "evil" when we overcome it "with good" (Rom 12:21); Concerning the "flesh," which is the "old man" or sin nature, we depend on God to always "deliver us from" it (Mat 6:13), for we cannot cease from sinning, it continuing to "dwell" is us (Ro 7:17, 20) via the old man. Sin just doesn't dominate us (Ro 6:14), as we are separated from it all (Ro 8:9).
 
It was God's plan for Adam and Eve to eventually leave Eden and fill the earth. Eden is just a small speck on the face of the whole earth.
Ture, it's all part of His plan with those who choose to be right with Him. If their name isn't in the Lamb's Book of Life it means they will never chose not to believe in God (Jhn 3:18); this will of course involve the majority of mankind (Mat 7:13, 14).
 
Back
Top