Decision Making and the Will of God

[makinbacon]

Ever thought about the notion that it's not about YOU? At all!

Is there a purpose to this question, or are we talking about Barbies again?

 

[makinbacon]

savedbygrace,

What you are pointing to fall under the idea of "general calling." It applies to all people. A special calling is something which one applies to a specific person or group of people. Some examples of special callings would be Moses' calling to lead the Hebrews out of Egypt, Paul's calling to work with Gentiles, and Hosea's calling to marry Gomer. I do not believe God provides special callings of this nature to all believers.

 

[Elijah674]

Re: Decision Making and the Will of God

Originally Posted by makinbacon
I do not believe God provides a special calling to all believers. I believe there is a general calling provided through the Scriptures that all believers should follow, but I consider believers with a special calling to be the exception rather than the rule. For the rest of us, I believe God expects us to participant in His general calling by applying wisdom.

To make some applications, I do not believe we need to request "God's will" on which career path we will seek. I do not believe we need "the Holy Spirit's guidance" on which church to attend. I do not believe "God speaks" to "His people" as often as His people claim to be so. I generally don't buy into the "small still voice" idea, either. I believe Christians should proceed through life with wisdom rather than seeking a special calling.

That said, I'm sure many feathers have been ruffled. Thus, respond at your leisure.

Rock says:
Ever thought about the notion that it's not about YOU? At all!

Elijah here:
What about us even having 'free will' in burying the one talent?

And Rom. 8:26-28 finds His creation LED If they have the Holy Spirit in the first place, huh? Acts 5:32 - Rom. 8:14
​

 

[Theofilus]

This is called a loaded question. If I answer yes, then I am disagreeing Scripture. If I answer no, then I am being illogical. I opt for a third answer. I believe God cares what we do for a living. I also believe God gives people the freedom to choose what they do for a living within the boundaries laid out in Scripture. I do not believe caring necessitates God dictate our career choices.

It wasn't meant to be loaded, but logical. I believe that if something as trivial as how many hairs we have is important to God, then surely He must care enough about what we do for a living to guide us to the best possible occupation. He will allow us to choose, in this area as in others, but allowing choice doesn't imply lack of a plan. God allows us to choose sin, even though that's against His plan for us and He will allow us to choose a career that is not according to His plan. That doesn't mean that He doesn't have one.

 

[makinbacon]

It wasn't meant to be loaded, but logical. I believe that if something as trivial as how many hairs we have is important to God, then surely He must care enough about what we do for a living to guide us to the best possible occupation.

It's not logical. It's a non-sequitur. It does not follow that because God knows 'trivial' facts about each person that God necessarily has a specific and detailed plan for each person's life.

He will allow us to choose, in this area as in others, but allowing choice doesn't imply lack of a plan. God allows us to choose sin, even though that's against His plan for us and He will allow us to choose a career that is not according to His plan. That doesn't mean that He doesn't have one.

Where is the perspective "God has a specific plan and detailed plan for each person's life" taught in Scripture?

 

[Theofilus]

It's not logical. It's a non-sequitur. It does not follow that because God knows 'trivial' facts about each person that God necessarily has a specific and detailed plan for each person's life.


Where is the perspective "God has a specific plan and detailed plan for each person's life" taught in Scripture?

My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place,
when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
Your eyes saw my unformed body;
all the days ordained for me were written in your book
before one of them came to be. (Ps. 139:15-16 NIV)​

In a more spiritual sense, everybody has a ministry that God has given them.

How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying... For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. (I Cor. 14:26,31 KJV)​

Then there's also the analogy with the potter and the clay. If a potter makes a vase, you can buy it and use it to keep your kid's Legos in, but that doesn't change the fact that the potter intended for you to put flowers in it. You may do whatever you want with your life, just as you can do what you want with the vase, but that doesn't mean that God didn't create you for a specific purpose, just as the potter made the vase for a specific purpose.

 

[makinbacon]

Ps. 139:15-16 NIV

I am going to be charitable. I will ignore the issues associated with deriving theology from biblical poetry. I will accept your interpretation of the passage to mean God specifically planned all the days of David's life. How do we know the passage applies to all people? That is, you want me to understand the passage as saying all the days of the lives of all the people are specifically planned by God. I am asking how you move from this passage to that conclusion.

In a more spiritual sense, everybody has a ministry that God has given them.

This falls under a general calling. All believers should serve the church body according to their gifts.

Then there's also the analogy with the potter and the clay. If a potter makes a vase, you can buy it and use it to keep your kid's Legos in, but that doesn't change the fact that the potter intended for you to put flowers in it. You may do whatever you want with your life, just as you can do what you want with the vase, but that doesn't mean that God didn't create you for a specific purpose, just as the potter made the vase for a specific purpose.

Jeremiah 18? Let's assume, despite that the passage is talking about Israel, we are clay within God's hands. What can we conclude from that about our calling? Nothing. God being sovereign does not mean God dictates a special calling to all. I can point to another interesting passage about potters and clay.

Romans 9:21 (NIV). Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

Interesting.

 

[Alabaster]

Where is this taught in Scripture?

I don't know off hand. I do know that God's general will for us is to walk with Him, obey Him and to make oneself ready to preach the Gospel to the world at any and every opportunity. His specific will has to do with His equipping us to do what we were created for. That is something we read of in almost every man's and woman's story in Scripture!

We agree believers will seek to please God. Yet, how do we know God has assigned a special task to all believers?

God definitely has a specific plan for everyone's life. He created everyone as unique vessels for His life, love and power.

 

[makinbacon]

That is something we read of in almost every man's and woman's story in Scripture!

I disagree. See: Divine Direction and Decision Making in the Book of Acts. It seems "specialized direction" is the exception rather than the rule.

God definitely has a specific plan for everyone's life. He created everyone as unique vessels for His life, love and power.

It's easy to pontificate. It's hard to produce biblical support. Show me the "money."

 

[Jake]

Is there a purpose to this question, or are we talking about Barbies again?

The point was you had alot of "I"'s in your post, we don't care what YOU think, we care what God says in His Word, so it doesn't really matter what YOU believe, it's what God believes.

Prove you post with scripture next time.

 

[Alabaster]

I disagree. See: Divine Direction and Decision Making in the Book of Acts. It seems "specialized direction" is the exception rather than the rule.

That is altogether false. Everyone is born with a potential destiny of greatness in God's eyes.

It's easy to pontificate. It's hard to produce biblical support. Show me the "money."

Read the word. We are each created with specific gifts and talents that, when the Holy Spirit is given control, leads that person to do mighty exploits for God. Believing that is untrue just points to a lack of the knowledge of God and how much He loves us and has a great plan for each one of us!

While I am overwhelmed at God's wonderful giftings of His people, you are promoting people to be underwhelmed. What do you think God thinks of that?

 

[makinbacon]

The point was you had alot of "I"'s in your post, we don't care what YOU think, we care what God says in His Word, so it doesn't really matter what YOU believe, it's what God believes.

I was attempting to generate discussion. I stated as such in the original post.

Prove you post with scripture next time.

I have supported my point with Scripture.

 

[makinbacon]

That is altogether false. Everyone is born with a potential destiny of greatness in God's eyes.

Within the Book of Arts, there are 14 cases where God provided specific direction to the believers. There are 71 cases in which God did not specifically guide people, but allowed them to make the decisions. This is biblical evidence which supports the idea that specific direction is the exception rather than the rule. Deal with the evidence. Don't dismiss the evidence.

Read the word. We are each created with specific gifts and talents that, when the Holy Spirit is given control, leads that person to do mighty exploits for God.

I did read the word. That's why I reject this perspective.

Believing that is untrue just points to a lack of the knowledge of God and how much He loves us and has a great plan for each one of us!

Are personal attacks allowed as evidence?

While I am overwhelmed at God's wonderful giftings of His people, you are promoting people to be underwhelmed. What do you think God thinks of that?

I believe God is sad. Why? Because you're lying about what I believe.

 

[ivdavid]

It seems "specialized direction" is the exception rather than the rule.

What exactly do you mean by "specialized direction"? Does it refer to God having a specialized direction for you to follow or does it refer to God communicating to you, such direction that He purposes according to His will?
If you mean the latter, then I too will agree - God need not necessarily communicate each and every part of His plan for you, to you - but looking back, you will definitely see that your life followed a plan - His plan.
But if you mean the former, then you'll have to back that up with Scripture.

I'll state the implications of both the above statements - if I were to believe that God must communicate each and every bit of His plan for me, to me, then I'd be using Him like one of those fortune-tellers - where is faith in His ability and sufficiency? I'd be more gain-minded using Him as the instrument for my gain. So it is true that we must not seek experiences/directions for the sake of them while missing out on the Person who is the cause of such experiences.

That said, what if I experienced His love and heard His comforting voice. This is a relationship with God - not some legalistic Do's and Dont's. What is a relationship without experiencing the Person, for who He is and not for the experience itself. King David spoke about God hiding Himself and then at other times revealing Himself to him - David would call unto the Lord and the Lord would be good to answer - are these not relationship experiences? What is wrong with that?

So I do agree that God need not communicate all His plans concerning us to us but this is not to rob of a Father-child relationship in Him.

But you go to the other extreme and say that God does not have any plans for most of us regarding certain worldly matters. His not communicating does not imply that He doesn't have them. In fact, every moment, you are working out His plan for you. Do you presume that He depends on your acceptance of His plan to work in you? You yourself referred to the Potter and His clay.

What is your intent in holding such a stance? What do you hope to establish as a final conclusion by saying that God does not have plans for most of us? Are you trying to make man dependent on himself in these matters - shouldn't you be teaching man the opposite - total dependence on God for all things in your life? If your intent is only to stop people from attributing unnecessary importance to experiences for the sake of experiences, then fine. But anything else is not conforming to God's ways.

Are you trying to alleviate the insecurities of those who do not have such experiences? Is this the way of doing so - by negating all of the opposite? This seems similar to people who do not have the gift to speak in tongues claiming that there is no such thing as speaking in tongues.

Would you reconsider the following statements of yours -

To make some applications, I do not believe we need to request "God's will" on which career path we will seek.

Jas 4:13 Come now, those saying, Today or tomorrow we will go into such a city and spend a year there, and we will trade and will make a profit,
Jas 4:14 who do not know of the morrow. For what is your life? For it is a vapor, which appears for a little time, and then disappears.
Jas 4:15 Instead of you saying, If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that.
Jas 4:16 But now you boast in your presumptions. All such boasting is evil.

How did you mean this? Requesting God's will in terms of communication or in terms of depending on it through faith? If it's mere communication that we must not insist on - then fine. Even so, asking/praying to know God's will with a view to please Him is not wrong - it's wrong only when it's gain-minded or out of self-dependence. And God does answer prayers - even His silence at times, is an answer.

I do not believe "God speaks" to "His people" as often as His people claim to be so.

You have given yourself room to believe that God does speak to His people - you're only against the frequency of such conversations. But what measure do you use to say that God must speak only so many times and not so many more. Once you say that it may be of exception and not of rule, how do you decide what the rule is? Let me just say, that it's not for us to decide.

I generally don't buy into the "small still voice" idea, either.

You are sounding just like an atheist when he says - "I don't buy into the 'God' idea".
Just because one hasn't experienced something does not mean it can never happen.

I believe Christians should proceed through life with wisdom rather than seeking a special calling.

As I said before, if you're referring to some who are more interested in "experiences" than in the Person causing these experiences, then I agree - it is better not to grant so much importance to these experiences.
And what do you mean by "special calling" here? If you mean the calling to be apostles, prophets, teachers etc., what is wrong in desiring such calling - not from a personal view, but from a view to serve God and His church.
1Co 14:1 Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. [ESV]

The fact of the matter is still that God must give such calling and that we cannot presume this upon ourselves. We are still dependent on God but praying for it in the Spirit is not wrong.

 

[Theofilus]

I can point to another interesting passage about potters and clay.

Romans 9:21 (NIV). Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

Interesting.

Yes, that is interesting. Thank you for making my point for me. Notice that Paul didn't say "specific use", but "special use". They are not the same thing. Some things were considered sacred and were set apart for a "special" purpose, and were not allowed to be used for anything else. For example, the oil that was used for the menora in the temple was not used for anything else. You were not allowed to take some home and use it to light your house. Vessels that were used to contain this special oil, holy water or some other special contents had to be set apart (the meaning of the word "holy") for that specific purpose. These are the "special uses" to which Paul is referring. Other uses were considered "common", but could still be specific. For example, someone could have a clay jar that they used only to keep flour in. That's a specific use, but it's not "special" in the sense Paul is referring to.

Likewise, God can call us to different types of vocations. Some will be "special", such as when He calls someone to be a pastor, evangelist or some similar job, while others will be "common", such as secretary, carpenter or some other trade. All of them are specific, though.

 

[Theofilus]

I was attempting to generate discussion. I stated as such in the original post.


I have supported my point with Scripture.

Really? I just went over all your posts in this thread, and the only scripure reference I found was the one in Romans 9 that you posted to reply to me, regarding the potter and the clay. As I have already stated, that can also be interpreted to mean that God does have a calling for each of us. In fact, I find that a much more reasonable interpretation. You also have claimed that there are only 14 cases of specific leadings in the book of acts. This doesn't really prove anything one way or the other, since it is unreasonable to believe that everything, including every instance of God's leading would be recorded in a single book. Can you provide a chapter and verse that says that God doesn't have a calling for everyone?

 

[makinbacon]

What exactly do you mean by "specialized direction"?

Special revelations or signs to direct a person in the process of making decisions. There are generally unnecessary because God has already provided us with a revelation which is sufficient. There are occasions in which some people receive such direction, but this is the exception rather than the rule.

But if you mean the former, then you'll have to back that up with Scripture.

I pointed to Romans 9:21. I do not believe God lays out a detailed plan of every human's life. I believe God, being a big god, gives us freedom to make most of our day-to-day choices (e.g., what to eat, wear, watch on TV, etc.) and even most of the major choices in life (e.g., who to marry, what career to choose, etc.) so long as we adhere to the boundaries laid out in Scripture (i.e., not doing immoral things, not abandoning our faith, etc.).

But you go to the other extreme and say that God does not have any plans for most of us regarding certain worldly matters.

Wrong. I am saying God does not dictate most of our lives. I believe he gives us the freedom to choose. I think God does establish special tasks for some people. I do not think God establishes special tasks for all.

You yourself referred to the Potter and His clay.

Yes, I was pointing out the misapplication of the passage.

What is your intent in holding such a stance? What do you hope to establish as a final conclusion by saying that God does not have plans for most of us? Are you trying to make man dependent on himself in these matters - shouldn't you be teaching man the opposite - total dependence on God for all things in your life? If your intent is only to stop people from attributing unnecessary importance to experiences for the sake of experiences, then fine. But anything else is not conforming to God's ways.

My intent is to adhere to what I see taught in Scripture and be weary of modern received traditions.

How did you mean this? Requesting God's will in terms of communication or in terms of depending on it through faith? If it's mere communication that we must not insist on - then fine. Even so, asking/praying to know God's will with a view to please Him is not wrong - it's wrong only when it's gain-minded or out of self-dependence. And God does answer prayers - even His silence at times, is an answer.

I often observe people "waiting on God." They spend so much time waiting on God that they become immobilized or incapable to choosing a course of action. I consider such behavior to be foolish. It is certainly okay to seek God's counsel on matters, but generally God does not provide "special direction" to people in matters. Thus, the idea what we should "wait on God" is often abused.

You have given yourself room to believe that God does speak to His people - you're only against the frequency of such conversations. But what measure do you use to say that God must speak only so many times and not so many more. Once you say that it may be of exception and not of rule, how do you decide what the rule is? Let me just say, that it's not for us to decide.

If you are going to misrepresent my perspective, then I am not going to respond.

Just because one hasn't experienced something does not mean it can never happen.

I used "generally" for a reason.

And what do you mean by "special calling" here? If you mean the calling to be apostles, prophets, teachers etc., what is wrong in desiring such calling - not from a personal view, but from a view to serve God and His church.

I believe some become pastors, prophets, etc. under a general calling. That is, through applying the "way of wisdom," they choose to become those things. I think others receive a particular calling to do certain tasks (e.g., Paul as a missionary to the Gentiles, Hosea to marry Gomer, Moses to lead the Hebrews, etc.).

 

[elijah23]

I believe there is a general calling provided through the Scriptures that all believers should follow, but I consider believers with a special calling to be the exception rather than the rule.

I think the Lord speaks directly to us.

 

[Danny63]

I believe some become pastors, prophets, etc. under a general calling. That is, through applying the "way of wisdom," they choose to become those things.

I do not believe a Pastor is a general calling, that is a special call from God to be a Shepherd, not all can do that.

I have to believe that God has a special call for all His people, whether you chose to categorize it as a general or special is just not found in scripture. But God is a Father and as all Fathers we have certain hopes and desires for our children to to become the best at what ever they decide to become. But unlike earthly fathers, God is God and has created us all for a special purpose, His purpose. I do not care if that means you collect garbage as a living or you are a Senator you have a calling in that job, a call to be a witness to those in your path for Christ, and that my friend is the most special call anyone can have, and it is a call from God himself, to all believers. We do not just chose that out of thin air, God gives us the desire to serve Him, and serving Him is a special call in my book.

Psalms 37:4 say's to delight ourselves in the Lord and He will give us the desires of our hearts. Well if we are delighting in Him, abiding in Him and living in Him, then our desires should reflect His desire for us.

I just have a hard time putting labels on all the things you talk about. Of course watching TV or going to the store and so on is not a call from God, but where we work and what we do for a living I have to believe is a call from God and in line with His perfect will for our lives.

 

[makinbacon]

Yes, that is interesting. Thank you for making my point for me. Notice that Paul didn't say "specific use", but "special use". They are not the same thing. Some things were considered sacred and were set apart for a "special" purpose, and were not allowed to be used for anything else. For example, the oil that was used for the menora in the temple was not used for anything else. You were not allowed to take some home and use it to light your house. Vessels that were used to contain this special oil, holy water or some other special contents had to be set apart (the meaning of the word "holy") for that specific purpose. These are the "special uses" to which Paul is referring. Other uses were considered "common", but could still be specific. For example, someone could have a clay jar that they used only to keep flour in. That's a specific use, but it's not "special" in the sense Paul is referring to.

Likewise, God can call us to different types of vocations. Some will be "special", such as when He calls someone to be a pastor, evangelist or some similar job, while others will be "common", such as secretary, carpenter or some other trade. All of them are specific, though.

I am confused. "God can" or "God does?" Are you disagreeing with me?