Decision Making and the Will of God

[makinbacon]

Can you provide a chapter and verse that says that God doesn't have a calling for everyone?

I am really confused. Did you read any of my posts? I stated God calls everyone under a general calling. This is plain in Scripture. I also stated God does not call everyone with a special calling (i.e., to do a specific task, vocation, whatever). This is neither plainly stated in Scripture, nor is the "alternative" perspective. We must deduce our position from Scripture which does not plainly say one way or the other. As you said, "that can also be interpreted to mean..."

Which interpretation is right? How do we know this? It does not help to say "that's what it means." We need a common foundation from which we can both look at the passage and derive the same meaning. What interpretational foundation do you propose?

 

[makinbacon]

I think the Lord speaks directly to us.

I think He can.

 

[makinbacon]

I do not believe a Pastor is a general calling, that is a special call from God to be a Shepherd, not all can do that.

It is not a general calling, agreed. However, some, following the "way of wisdom," may choose to be a pastor without receiving a special call from God.

We do not just chose that out of thin air, God gives us the desire to serve Him, and serving Him is a special call in my book.

We do not choose "out of thin air." We choose according to wisdom. That is, unless we have received a calling to do a special task like Paul, Moses, or Hosea.

I just have a hard time putting labels on all the things you talk about. Of course watching TV or going to the store and so on is not a call from God, but where we work and what we do for a living I have to believe is a call from God and in line with His perfect will for our lives.

I can understand the difficult in placing labels and even in understanding what I'm talking about. We were brought up in an environment which teaches a different way of thinking about things. It's simply that I have found that way to conflict with Scripture, not to mention my own experience.

That said, I want to suggest another book.

How Then Should We Choose?: Three Views on God's Will and Decision Making edited by Douglas Huffman. It presents the specific-will view (most Evangelicals and many mainliners), wisdom view (mine), and the relationship view.

 

[Jake]

It is not a general calling, agreed. However, some, following the "way of wisdom," may choose to be a pastor without receiving a special call from God.

This is true, but if they did do this, they would be rebelling, that is why we have so many churches who teach false doctrine.

We do not choose "out of thin air." We choose according to wisdom. That is, unless we have received a calling to do a special task like Paul, Moses, or Hosea.

You can choose to do whatever you want, that doesn't mean it's God's Will and it doesn't mean God will bless it, if God is not on your side, what's the point?

I can understand the difficult in placing labels and even in understanding what I'm talking about. We were brought up in an environment which teaches a different way of thinking about things. It's simply that I have found that way to conflict with Scripture, not to mention my own experience.

That said, I want to suggest another book.

How Then Should We Choose?: Three Views on God's Will and Decision Making edited by Douglas Huffman. It presents the specific-will view (most Evangelicals and many mainliners), wisdom view (mine), and the relationship view.

Skeptical to read someone else's opinion about God's Will and decision making when we have His complete Word.

Sometimes people forget God is Sovereign, He works in and through all. He will use people to perform His will w/out them even knowing it's from Him. I've had God use atheists to answer my prayers, they have no idea why they are giving me a set of free weights, except for they think it's because they don't want it anymore, but I had just prayed for a set.

Also, I have talked to people who have wondered what their calling is from God, should I be this or that, but what does the Word say, our calling is to conform to His image, to love God with all of our hearts, mind and soul and our neighbor as yourself.

Just curious, are you looking for His calling for your life? as in a ministry? a job?

 

[makinbacon]

This is true, but if they did do this, they would be rebelling, that is why we have so many churches who teach false doctrine.

I do not see how they are rebelling.

You can choose to do whatever you want, that doesn't mean it's God's Will and it doesn't mean God will bless it, if God is not on your side, what's the point?

It is God's will for us to choose our path according to wisdom if we have no received a special calling.

Skeptical to read someone else's opinion about God's Will and decision making when we have His complete Word.

You do realize the book presents three different perspectives, right? And one of those perspectives happens to be the one you and most others are pushing.

Sometimes people forget God is Sovereign, He works in and through all. He will use people to perform His will w/out them even knowing it's from Him. I've had God use atheists to answer my prayers, they have no idea why they are giving me a set of free weights, except for they think it's because they don't want it anymore, but I had just prayed for a set.

Absolutely. God is sovereign. My perspective does not take that away from God. In fact, I think being free to choose according to wisdom places a serious responsibility upon believers. We have become workmates with God. He is taking a serious risk on allowing us to choose our way according to His teachings. To me, a god who places such trust in his followers is greater than a god who feels the need to dictate and control everything.

Also, I have talked to people who have wondered what their calling is from God, should I be this or that, but what does the Word say, our calling is to conform to His image, to love God with all of our hearts, mind and soul and our neighbor as yourself.

Agreed. This is what I call the "general calling."

Just curious, are you looking for His calling for your life? as in a ministry? a job?

Nope. I passed that bridge long ago. I explored the idea of vocational ministry, and even had minister friends convinced my "calling" (i.e., special calling) was to go into the ministry. Yet, I choose a different path. I evaluated my strengths and weaknesses, my interests, my skills and abilities, and my (then) present circumstances, and then I choose the path which seemed to be the wisest of the options before me. I have no regret. I have no shame. I have no guilt. I have no lingering doubts. I chose my path with wisdom.

 

[Jake]

I do not see how they are rebelling.


It is God's will for us to choose our path according to wisdom if we have no received a special calling.

Pastors need to be called and given the gift of pastorship, God will allow us to do our own thing, however, if a person decides for himself to be a pastor, they are in grave error. Pastors are responsible for the flock, it is not a ministry to simply decide to do because a person wants to do it.
Ephesians 4:11 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. 16 From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

You do realize the book presents three different perspectives, right? And one of those perspectives happens to be the one you and most others are pushing.

The Bible only gives one perspective and His ways are always right and true.

Revelation 15:3 ........righteous and true are thy ways, thou King of the ages.

Absolutely. God is sovereign. My perspective does not take that away from God. In fact, I think being free to choose according to wisdom places a serious responsibility upon believers. We have become workmates with God. He is taking a serious risk on allowing us to choose our way according to His teachings. To me, a god who places such trust in his followers is greater than a god who feels the need to dictate and control everything.


Agreed. This is what I call the "general calling."

Again, God allows us to "do our own thing". As a Christian, we are blessed to have a God we can pray to for our guidance, direction and leading. He wants to bless us, yet, what do we do? We go and do our own thing.

Nope. I passed that bridge long ago. I explored the idea of vocational ministry, and even had minister friends convinced my "calling" (i.e., special calling) was to go into the ministry. Yet, I choose a different path. I evaluated my strengths and weaknesses, my interests, my skills and abilities, and my (then) present circumstances, and then I choose the path which seemed to be the wisest of the options before me. I have no regret. I have no shame. I have no guilt. I have no lingering doubts. I chose my path with wisdom.

You do know God is the only one who can give us wisdom correct? So whatever spiritual wisdom you believe you have, you did not get it on your own.

Proverbs 4: 5 Get wisdom, get understanding; Forget not, neither decline from the words of my mouth;


James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you.

And you do know what the Bible says about worldy wisdom:
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftinessâ€[a];

So makinbacon, praise Him for your wisdom.

peace.

 

[makinbacon]

Pastors need to be called and given the gift of pastorship

Where is the "need" component of your statement taught in the Ephesians passage? It looks to me like you're doing a little reading into the passage something which isn't there.

The Bible only gives one perspective and His ways are always right and true.

Yes, but how do you know a person has correctly understood the Bible? You guys are completely skipping the part of how we can know what we understand the Bible to be saying is what the Bible actually says.

Again, God allows us to "do our own thing". As a Christian, we are blessed to have a God we can pray to for our guidance, direction and leading. He wants to bless us, yet, what do we do? We go and do our own thing.

How many times will you continue to repeat this? I understand your point. I disagree with it. Do you understand my point?

You do know God is the only one who can give us wisdom correct? So whatever spiritual wisdom you believe you have, you did not get it on your own.

Okay, strike my previous question. You obviously don't get it. That, or you're being dishonest by twisting my words.

 

[Jake]

Where is the "need" component of your statement taught in the Ephesians passage? It looks to me like you're doing a little reading into the passage something which isn't there.


Yes, but how do you know a person has correctly understood the Bible? You guys are completely skipping the part of how we can know what we understand the Bible to be saying is what the Bible actually says.


How many times will you continue to repeat this? I understand your point. I disagree with it. Do you understand my point?


Okay, strike my previous question. You obviously don't get it. That, or you're being dishonest by twisting my words.

You've got some major issues makinbacon, now i feel sorry for your lack of wisdom.
why is it that when people try to be nice to you, you resort to nastiness and a hateful heart?
i wish everyone else luck in this thread discussing anything spiritual with you.

 

[Theofilus]

I am confused. "God can" or "God does?" Are you disagreeing with me?

God can and does give each of His chidren a specific calling. Of course, we have to be willing to hear His voice to know what that calling is.

 

[Theofilus]

I am really confused. Did you read any of my posts? I stated God calls everyone under a general calling. This is plain in Scripture. I also stated God does not call everyone with a special calling (i.e., to do a specific task, vocation, whatever).

And you also stated:

I have supported my point with Scripture.

But now you say:

This is neither plainly stated in Scripture, nor is the "alternative" perspective.

If it's not plainly stated in Scripture, then what did you mean when you said you had supported your point with Scripture? All you've done is mention one specific reference (which I showed could easily be interpreted differently), and made a claim about the book of Acts that isn't true (the site you linked to doesn't have a complet list). So, what Scripture have you provided that supports your claim that God doesn't have a specific calling for everyone?

 

[makinbacon]

You've got some major issues makinbacon, now i feel sorry for your lack of wisdom.
why is it that when people try to be nice to you, you resort to nastiness and a hateful heart?
i wish everyone else luck in this thread discussing anything spiritual with you.

I am baffled. How is my post nasty and hateful? Is disagreement now considered nasty and hateful?

 

[makinbacon]

God can and does give each of His chidren a specific calling. Of course, we have to be willing to hear His voice to know what that calling is.

All His children? That is the point of contention.

 

[makinbacon]

If it's not plainly stated in Scripture, then what did you mean when you said you had supported your point with Scripture?

The Bible does not plainly state, "God gives every person a special calling." The Bible does not plainly state, "God does not give every person a special calling." This should be evidenced by the fact that neither your perspective nor my perspective have produced passages which have clearly been understood by both parties as meaning such.

This means the ideas which we are convinced Scripture conveys are more subtle and must be deduced from combining the whole of Scripture. My perspective takes the whole of Scripture and sees the common pattern in decision making to be that God gives us the freedom to choose our paths. (Please do not misrepresent this statement again. You know what I mean by God giving us freedom. I am not saying God gives us freedom to betray His will.) Your perspective reads into many passages the idea of special callings applying to all people. I think our differences rest on our approaches to interpreting the Bible rather than the Bible itself. I am not arguing it's a "matter of interpretation." I am saying my interpretive framework is superior to yours. Thus, this is why I wanted you to present your framework for interpretation.

 

[Theofilus]

The Bible does not plainly state, "God gives every person a special calling." The Bible does not plainly state, "God does not give every person a special calling." This should be evidenced by the fact that neither your perspective nor my perspective have produced passages which have clearly been understood by both parties as meaning such.

This means the ideas which we are convinced Scripture conveys are more subtle and must be deduced from combining the whole of Scripture.

There are some things, in fact, there are many things that the Bible doesn't explicitly state, and which we must infer from what the Bible does say. There is nothing wrong with that. If you infer your understanding of this from the whole of Scripture, that's fine. Just say so. But you said that you had Scripture that supported your points. You said you had already provided such Scripture, when the fact is that you haven't. If you have specific verses that either state or strongly imply that your view on this is correct, then please provide them. If you have no such verses, but only infer this view from your genearl understanding of Scripture, then don't claim that you have such verses.

My perspective takes the whole of Scripture and sees the common pattern in decision making to be that God gives us the freedom to choose our paths. (Please do not misrepresent this statement again. You know what I mean by God giving us freedom. I am not saying God gives us freedom to betray His will.) Your perspective reads into many passages the idea of special callings applying to all people. I think our differences rest on our approaches to interpreting the Bible rather than the Bible itself. I am not arguing it's a "matter of interpretation." I am saying my interpretive framework is superior to yours. Thus, this is why I wanted you to present your framework for interpretation.

Why do you want me to "present my framework", when you seem to already know all about it? You claim that my understanding reads into Scripture and that your framework is superiour to mine. How can you make those claims if you don't know what my framework is?

 

[makinbacon]

But you said that you had Scripture that supported your points.

I pointed to a study on cases of decision making and God's will in the book of Acts and a verse from Romans. These support my point. They do not make an explicit statement to that end, but it can be easily inferred. This becomes even easier when we take the whole of Scripture into consideration, but pointing to the whole of Scripture is too much to ask people to ponder -- given our context.

If you have specific verses that either state or strongly imply that your view on this is correct, then please provide them. If you have no such verses, but only infer this view from your genearl understanding of Scripture, then don't claim that you have such verses.

Strongly imply is weasel wording. We'd need to define what "strongly" means (i.e., what criteria makes something strong or weak).

Why do you want me to "present my framework", when you seem to already know all about it? You claim that my understanding reads into Scripture and that your framework is superiour to mine. How can you make those claims if you don't know what my framework is?

I am asking you, as a standout among specific-will supporters, because you seem the most capable of making an intelligent case for the perspective. Thus, asking you is a compliment.

However, I have tentatively accepted the conclusion that no one here will be capable of presenting a hermeneutical framework which avoids the problems previously described. I have accepted this conclusion because the overall quality of discussion here seems to be quite low. Thus, I am asking because I could be wrong. I always leave the door open to that option.

And, finally, I do consider my framework to be superior. Because, from where I stand, I am not engaging in eisogesis while those pushing the specific-will view are.

 

[makinbacon]

On second thought, I am bored of this discussion. Thus, you need not bother with the framework. I'm going to move on to other discussions for the time being.

 

[Theofilus]

On second thought, I am bored of this discussion. Thus, you need not bother with the framework. I'm going to move on to other discussions for the time being.

Ok, if that's what you want, I won't bother. But let me finish by telling you a true story that happened to me not long ago. I used to be a member of a prayer / fellowship / Bible study group that met in the home of one of the members every other Friday. In the spring of 2009, I was at a meeting one Friday evening. It had been 4 weeks since we last met, since the previous meeting would have been on Good Friday, and we decided to skip that meeting, because some people wanted to be with their families and others would be out of town. During the previous 4 weeks, I had been reading Exodus, along with a Messianic Jewish comentary. I was sharing with the other members about what I had been reading and how the first 20 or so chapters that I had read were actually a love story, that culminates in a wedding at Mt. Sinai. As I was sharing this, another member interrupted and seemed to be angry for some reason. He raised his voice at me and said "I don't remember any love in those chapters! I remember something about idolatry and a golden calf and God's judgement over sin! I don't see a lot of love in that!" I didn't really know what to say. I was in shock after that response. All I was doing was trying to share God's love with fellow Christians, and I got attacked. I tried to explain that the golden calf incident didn't come until 12 chapters later and I tried to explain the symbolism more, but it was no good. He just wouldn't see God's love for His people in those chapters. All he saw was sin and judgement.

What does this story have to do with this thread? Just this - Different people can read the exact same words and get different things out of them. One person reads the first chapters of Exodus and sees judgement, while another reads the same chapters and sees love. One person reads the Bible and sees God's guidence, while another sees human choice, without guidence. Don't be too quick to judge other's opinion's just because they disagree with you. Just because I have a different view doesn't mean that I'm reading things into Scripture while you're getting things out of it. It could also be that I'm just getting something different out of it. And just as judgement and love are both to be found in Exodus, could it be that both guidence of all God's children and free choice can both be found in Scripture? Do we have to rule out one to accept the other?

 

[Danny63]

However, I have tentatively accepted the conclusion that no one here will be capable of presenting a hermeneutical framework which avoids the problems previously described. I have accepted this conclusion because the overall quality of discussion here seems to be quite low. Thus, I am asking because I could be wrong. I always leave the door open to that option.

In laymen terms "We are to stupid to hold a conversation with you"? Is that what you are saying there?

I admit I got my degree in the street, the school of hard knocks so to say, but that is ok God decided to call me into full time ministry just the same.
I may not be able to speak on your level but I can say God is the author of life and yes He gave us all a free will, but I would have to say after studying His word that He has a specific and desired direction, path, will, for each and everyone of us, it is however our free choice to choose to not take the path He wanted for us.

 

[Alabaster]

I disagree. See: Divine Direction and Decision Making in the Book of Acts. It seems "specialized direction" is the exception rather than the rule.


It's easy to pontificate. It's hard to produce biblical support. Show me the "money."

So, you don't believe God has a specific plan for you, personally? It isn't pontificating to state that I believe God is creating me and all of His people to be what He designed them to be as they walk closely with Him and obey Him.


Isaiah 45:9 Amplified
Woe to him who strives with his Maker!--a worthless piece of broken pottery among other pieces equally worthless [and yet presuming to strive with his Maker]! Shall the clay say to him who fashions it, What do you think you are making? or, Your work has no handles?

Romans 9:20 Amplified
But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and answer back to God? Will what is formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus?

1 Peter 4:10 Amplified
As each of you has received a gift (a particular spiritual talent, a gracious divine endowment), employ it for one another as [befits] good trustees of God's many-sided grace [faithful stewards of the [a]extremely diverse powers and gifts granted to Christians by unmerited favor].

Ephesians 2:10 Amplified
For we are God's [own] handiwork (His workmanship), [a]recreated in Christ Jesus, [born anew] that we may do those good works which God predestined (planned beforehand) for us [taking paths which He prepared ahead of time], that we should walk in them [living the good life which He prearranged and made ready for us to live].

Jeremiah 29:11 NIV
For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

 

[Alabaster]

I think He can.

This response above was to a poster saying that he thinks God speaks to us. He can and He does. Problem is, not everyone, even His own kids, listen.