Growth Demas & Mark vs some of you..

[Kidron]

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2 professional backsliders found in the New Testament would be Demas & Mark.
Mark not so much, but Demas, absolutely.
Currently both are worshiping God and Jesus and enjoying Heaven.
Both have something to say to you when you arrive, if, you are one of the unfortunately deceived who think that you can lose your eternal life that Jesus IS.... 1 John 5:11,12 ..... John 17:3

so, you die, and then Demas and Mark have this to say to you upon your arrival to Heaven.....

""" IT is so sad that you spent your entire Christian life worried about being lost, worrying about doing enough so that you could slip into heaven if possible, instead of resting in the arms of Jesus and His finished Blood Atonement.
So sad, that you never understood that Jesus who himself IS Eternal life, is inside you all your lifetime, keeping you sealed unto the day of redemption.
So so sad, that your church and your pastor-priest- minister- and personal theology kept you grinding away at works, a slave to the law, a miserable legalist, when you could have just believed that God's free gift of Redemption was never ever based on your behavior and was eternally imputed to you for Free because of what Jesus did for you because He Loves you so.
Sad Sad sad, that you spent all your bible study time being shown by the devil and his flock every single out of context scripture they twisted just to make you believe that your salvation was yours to lose and not Jesus's to maintain.
Pity pity pity, that you spent so much time, so much of your Christian life, caught up in straining to be accepted by God, working to be justified in the end, when the entire time you already were, once and forever....................welcome home.""""

 

[Jethro Bodine]

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[Jethro Bodine]

Both have something to say to you when you arrive, if, you are one of the unfortunately deceived who think that you can lose your eternal life....

Meanwhile, Paul and I have something to say to you right now in the land of the living who have been deceived into thinking you can not lose eternal life:

1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

IT is so sad that you spent your entire Christian life worried about being lost, worrying about doing enough so

Thank you for trying to think for me, Demas and Mark, but I am not worried one iota about my salvation. Why? Because I have faith. I am continuing to hold fast the word by which I am saved.

And as far as worrying about doing enough.... Since justification is not based on doing righteous things (Titus 3:5 NASB), but rather on believing in God's grace, you have no ground upon which to accuse those of us who are not worried about doing enough, but are careful to continue in our belief in the gospel that does justify.

So so sad, that your church and your pastor-priest- minister- and personal theology kept you grinding away at works, a slave to the law, a miserable legalist

I guess you have me and countless others confused with those who are doing that. Myself and others are continuing to believe in God's forgiveness. That's why we have and retain the promise of eternal life, not because we're working hard to earn eternal life. But thank you for thinking for others and myself....not.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Sad Sad sad, that you spent all your bible study time being shown by the devil and his flock every single out of context scripture they twisted just to make you believe that your salvation was yours to lose and not Jesus's to maintain.

Let's see who has to do the twisting and abusing of the scriptures to prove their point. I merely post plain scriptures that say exactly what it says, no interpretation needed:

1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB bold and underline mine)

Now, your turn. Explain to us how we can not accept these plain words for what they plainly say. Then let every man decide who's doctrine finds it necessary to twist and malign the word of God to defend their doctrine and who's does not.

 

[Kidron]

1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB bold and underline mine)

Sure.

First of all, if you "hold fast " to what i wrote about Demas and Mark and you, does this mean you understood it, or does it mean you have to never forget it?

Think of it like this.... JB

I tell you that "jesus saves", and you "hold fast" this info.
To you, in your odd theology, this means.... '"every single day i get up and worry that if i forget it or dont pursue it, im going to hell if i die on THAT day ".
But to most Christians who can "rightly divided", .... to "hold fast" means to " truly believe", regarding this scripture.
This is why Paul said...."unless you BELIEVED in vain" WHAT I JUST TOLD YOU = the GOSPEL. (See he was witnessing and some BELIEVED" and some didnt.....
So, to "hold fast" is to hear, and believe for REAL......in Truth.
And to >not< "hold fast" (regarding your verse you posted) means to hear the Gospel and not really believe it, and in that case, you are not saved, as God knows whether you "held fast" and believed for REAL, ....OR... if you didnt, when you Heard the GOSPEL, that Paul just preached.
And that is what Paul is telling these New Believers.

So, you are misreading the verse, to say....."hold fast by works till the day i die, or im lost like a monkey in a mall", where the verse actually means.....to "sincerely believe the Gospel" is to "hold fast" unto it, = when you hear it, as "faith cometh by hearing".
And once you do, God saves you, and then you dont have to ever again be concerned about going to Hell.

 

[Kidron]

JB,

let me show you another viewpoint.

Notice that Paul is preaching and speaking about the Gospel.
Now, would he be preaching the GOSPEL to a room full of born again believers who are saved 5, 10, or 30 years?
Is that what you think Paul is doing?.....You think he is sharing the Gospel AGAIN to a room full of Christians, saved for years?
No.
He is talking to BRAND NEW CONVERTS, about the GOSPEL they have just "held fast" in their hearts, as this is what you speak about to > brand new converts< . = THE GOSPEL

JB, Here is another way to understand what is happening, literally, in that verse.
Have you ever attended a Protestant Alter Call Sunday service?
If so, you know that the Pastor or Minister will, at the end of a sermon service, Offer the lost in the congregation an opportunity to receive Christ by faith, in their heart.
(Something like that)
Perhaps you've witnessed this?
So, after offering them the Gospel and giving them time to reflect and decide, the Pastor will then invite those who have "held fast" and "believed on Christ" after hearing the "Gospel", to come forward and publicly "confess Christ", as you find this in Romans, etc.
("believe and confess")
So, after all that........ The Pastor will often speak some words of loving kindness and wisdom to the "new believers who >held fast< onto the Gospel", who are standing there with Joy.
And THAT, is what Paul is doing with them, in the verse you posted.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Now, would he be preaching the GOSPEL to a room full of born again believers who are saved 5, 10, or 30 years?
Is that what you think Paul is doing?.....You think he is sharing the Gospel AGAIN to a room full of Christians, saved for years?

Have you forgotten this is a letter he is writing to the Corinthians after he has been among them planting the church sometime in the past? This is not a real time presentation of the gospel to which they are just now responding. He is speaking to people who have heard the gospel already. The verses plainly say that:

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

See, it's your doctrine that has to twist and malign the passage to get what it wants out of it. Mine? It just reads the words that are there, and the context they are in. And it says the condition to be saved is that you hold fast the word that was preached to you, and which you received, and upon which you stand. But OSAS says you don't have to do that. It says you are still saved even if you don't hold fast the word that was preached, and which you received, and in which you stand. It's so clear and concise and plain that any other supposed OSAS passage must be interpreted in light of these clear words....not the other way around.

If Mark and Demas did not hold fast the word (believe the gospel) that they heard and received all the way up to the end, they are most certainly NOT with Jesus now awaiting the final Judgment, nor will they be saved from God's wrath on the Day of Judgment when it comes. If they stopped believing they can't be saved on that day because they stopped believing in the only thing that could spare them on that day...the blood of Jesus Christ. They lost that which secures the power of God for them to protect them until the Day of Salvation (1 Peter 1:5 NASB).

 

[Kidron]

Have you forgotten this is a letter he is writing to the Corinthians after he has been among them planting the church sometime in the past? This is not a real time presentation of the gospel to which they are just now responding. He is speaking to people who have heard the gospel already. The verses plainly say that:

If Mark and Demas did not hold fast the word (believe the gospel) that they heard and received all the way up to the end, they are most certainly NOT with Jesus now awaiting the final Judgment.

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Here is the issue with what you are trying to teach and believe, JB.
Paul would certainly know that you cant be saved twice, or 3 or 4 times, by hearing the Gospel again and again.
You are certainly not born again over and over and over and over.
Also, He is talking to people, some, who he describes as "believed in vain".
To "believe in vain" is to not believe, which means you are not yet saved, so, in that case, He is reiterating the Gospel to some.
And no, Demas and Mark, along with Ananias and his wife, are not in hell.
And the reason they are not, is because bad behavior does not end your salvation.
If it did then every R-Rated Red Box DVD rented or Dirty Cable TV (favorite) show that is watched by a Christian night after night year after year would do it as they are certainly still renting them and watching them, while they come here and blabbing about "losing it".
Know what i mean, JB?
So, to be "enlightened" and to be a "partaker of the Holy Ghost", is not the same as being BORN AGAIN, as being "enlightened and to be a partaker of the Holy Ghost", is to hear the Gospel and be convicted by the Holy Spirit, and then you dont BELIEVE IT and become Born again......but you did hear it, and you were enlightened and you did partake of the convicting power of the Holy Spirit, but that is ALL YOU DID..
So, be careful how you try to bend the scriptures to prove that self righteousness is salvation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Paul would certainly know that you cant be saved twice, or 3 or 4 times, by hearing the Gospel again and again.
You are certainly not born again over and over and over and over.

Right. He wants them to stay saved. This is not about getting them born again again.

He is talking to people, some, who he describes as "believed in vain".
To "believe in vain" is to not believe, which means you are not yet saved

Why are you ignoring the context? Paul tells us what makes their receiving and believing in the gospel (which he says is a fact) possibly vain. He goes on to explain that if Christ has not been raised from the dead, then the receiving, and believing, and standing they've been doing and are doing has been in vain:

"if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain."
"17 ...if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins."
(1 Corinthians 15:14,17 NASB)

Do you want to argue with what the passage actually says believing in vain means and invent something to make it so what Paul plainly says does really mean what Paul plainly says? See, my doctrine doesn't have to do that. My doctrine comes right from the plain words of scripture and does not need someone to come along and convince them what it 'really' means.

The question of whether or not the Corinthians faith is in vain (the saving faith Paul himself says they surely have--vs. 1) is not whether or not it was real to begin with (he says it was real), but rather whether or not Christ has really risen from the dead. If he has not been raised from the dead THAT is what makes the Corinthians faith vain. Read it. Number one rule of Biblical interpretation--the Bible interprets itself.

And no, Demas and Mark, along with Ananias and his wife, are not in hell.
And the reason they are not, is because bad behavior does not end your salvation.

Right, unbelief does.
Bad behavior is simply the evidence of that fall from faith. And the bad behavior is there to testify against the person who has fallen from the grace of God's forgiveness because they no longer believe in the sacrifice that forgives that bad behavior. And, of course, because it is only by grace (the grace they have rejected) that a person can live righteously anyway, it's impossible for them not to fall back into their old ways once they've departed from faith in Christ.

If it did then every R-Rated Red Box DVD rented or Dirty Cable TV (favorite) show that is watched by a Christian night after night year after year would do it as they are certainly still renting them and watching them, while they come here and blabbing about "losing it".
Know what i mean, JB?

No, because the believer (not the ex-believer) has the sacrifice of Christ still available to them through their faith to atone for their sins. It is the ex-believer that no longer has the sacrifice of Christ, or any other sacrifice, available to them to be forgiven through when they sin.

So, to be "enlightened" and to be a "partaker of the Holy Ghost", is not the same as being BORN AGAIN, as being "enlightened and to be a partaker of the Holy Ghost", is to hear the Gospel and be convicted by the Holy Spirit, and then you dont BELIEVE IT and become Born again......but you did hear it, and you were enlightened and you did partake of the convicting power of the Holy Spirit, but that is ALL YOU DID..

How is 'standing' on the truth of the gospel somehow not actually standing on the gospel? I have yet to meet a person who is standing firmly by faith on the gospel but in complete contradiction to that is not standing on the gospel by faith.

So, be careful how you try to bend the scriptures to prove that self righteousness is salvation.

Please, help me out here.
How is standing on the gospel in faith a works righteousness salvation?????

 

[Kidron]

Right. He wants them to stay saved. This is not about getting them born again again.

Please, help me out here.
How is standing on the gospel in faith a works righteousness salvation?????

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A person is saved by the blood atonement, by hearing the Gospel and believing it, and God saves them.
God saves them.....they dont save themselves....
Is this completed or not?
True?
If not is your answer, or if your answer is....."yes, but then i have to DO".....then you have "fallen from grace", because you are tying to add something YOU DO< to keep yourself saved, instead of trusting what God Thru CHRIST ALREADY PROVIDED that already saved you once you were saved.

 

[Kidron]

Bad behavior is simply the evidence of that fall from faith.

Actually, bad behavior is a fruit of the continuing Adamic nature that is still in you, or a Paul said...."i do what i would not do, and that i would do, i do not".
Also, bad behavior, is really just wanting to enjoy the flesh, and that is why Paul does not call it sin, as its not, its "works of the flesh", as a believer is no longer "under the law, but under Grace".
So, the reason a person drinks, fornicates, and lusts, is because it feels good to their flesh.
However, none of this will cause you to lose your salvation., as nothing can cause a person to be un-born again.
the fact is....
God sees you just as sinless as Jesus Christ himself from the instant you are born again, till the second you die and meet Him.
That is your ..... "In Christ" = "eternal status".
Wonderful, isn't it?
"Amazing Grace".
"faith is counted as righteousness".
The ungodly have become as sinless as God.
THIS, is the wonder of the blood atonement once applied once and forever..

 

[Jim Parker]

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2 professional backsliders found in the New Testament would be Demas & Mark.
Mark not so much, but Demas, absolutely.
Currently both are worshiping God and Jesus and enjoying Heaven.

So you write fiction too........

 

[Kidron]

So you write fiction too........

No fiction required.
Demas and Mark were just men who did what they did, including some good and some bad.
In the end they both departed this green globe and found themselves in the presence of the Glorious One who saved them from not only themselves, but from all their sins and the judgement that they would have faced, had Jesus not been judged in their place long ago.
This is the wonder of the eternal blood of Christ.
It never fails to keep a Christian "saved".

 

[reba]

Foundation of Faith


Is not a debate forum and is dedicated to spiritual growth and inspiration.
This forum is read only to non-Christians

 

[Jim Parker]

It never fails to keep a Christian "saved".

Right. The "P" in Calvin's TULIP.
It's refuted repeatedly by scripture.
I've posted them before. You ignored them.

 

[Kidron]

Right. The "P" in Calvin's TULIP.
It's refuted repeatedly by scripture.
I've posted them before. You ignored them.

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Oh, im not one of those., but thanks for implying it

I have a much more biblical reason(s) for believing that once im sealed unto the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit, i can trust this, as eternal fact.
So, if you actually read what ive written about eternal security, you'll note that there is not anything remotely similar to what i prove as the reason(s) for a Christian's inability to be "unborn again", with Calvin's Hyper Calvinism, stuffs.
But as i said, you have to read what i write, carefully, and then when you do, you'll then feel pretty silly (as you should) trying to associate me with that fellow.
However, im happy to show you this, which Calvin never will..

The reason a person goes to hell, is because their sins are not paid for.., so, they pay for them = hell.
Thats the only reason someone ends up in hell....Its because they, instead of Jesus The Christ, are paying for their sins.
So, going to heaven or going to hell, is not based on behavior, but it based on SIN, and who is going to pay for this lost condition.
Jesus spoke of this condition as "dying in your sins"..
Therefore, it is SIN once dealt with that eternally solves the Heaven or Hell issue, as Unforgiven Sin is the eternal disconnect between all people and Holy Creator, and so the Holy Creator because of his great love for us, created a redemptive means to eliminate this barrier of Sin for us, for free, and this is Salvation.

The Holy Creator built a bridge, ....This bridge is made up of 3 nails, one cross, and one dead Jesus The Christ who died for Sins on it.
So, this is a bridge of atonement that reconnects all those who would use it by faith to reconnect with their Father the Creator, for all eternity.
And once this has occurred, (born again) and it only happens once, (born again) there is no way to later tear down the bridge or otherwise lose it, as you cant be un-born again.
And where many are confused about Salvation, is that they believe that their behavior or their good works is the bridge, but the reality is, Only Jesus's sacrifice is the bridge of atonement.
He alone is "The Way".
So, If you've crossed this bridge of atonement, there is no way back, there is only the (born again) crossing., and Calvin didnt teach this., but i do.

Now one more thing, here is how you discern wrong theology regarding What SAVES a person, or what REDEEMS a person.
All you have to do is note if they are giving all the credit for their salvation being both earned and kept ONLY by Jesus's blood atonement, or are they trying to substitute something or add to it something ., and the reason this matters the most, is because when a person starts talking about how to keep themselves saved by deeds or water or self effort of any kind, then they are insulting the ONE who actually saved them with His Finished Work.
The shorter version is this, (and Calvin wont tell you)...the very instant someone teaches or believes that communion, or water, or works of any kind are necessary for them to stay saved or to be saved, they have discounted and nullified Jesus's work on the Cross as not being enough, and instead are trying to take the credit for salvation away from Christ and unto themselves by their deed doing, and this is self righteousness, and THAT is the enemy of the Cross.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The encouragement to all people is that justification is granted to a person through God's loving grace--simply for the asking. And you receive the grace of that justification through the vehicle of your believing, and you stay justified through that same vehicle of believing. Stop believing and you lose the justification that your believing solicits. That hardly qualifies as the works gospel that Paul warns us about.

Believing what God said about Christ, through the gift of faith he provided, is what secured your justification. It was not secured by works. And continuing in that exact same believing is not a work either.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Thank you Kidron.
It's always nice to read the truth of God's Word that helps to build up our faith.
Yes, it is sad that there are Christians that cannot experience the strength of the Gospel.
Truly sad indeed.

 

[Chopper]

My thoughts....1 Cor. 15:1,2....
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. (KJV)

1Corinthians 15:1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,
15:2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.(ESV)

Now I will post what Kenneth Wuest has written in his "New Testament, an expanded translation". Wuest was the Professor of New Testament Greek at Moody Bible Inst....1 Cor. 15:1.........
"Now, I am making known to you, brethren, the good news which I brought as glad tidings to you, which also you took to yourselves, in which also you have taken a stand, through which you are being saved, in what word I announced it to you as glad tidings, assuming that you are holding it fast unless you believed in vain."

John Gill has a very good commentary on this passage that you fellows question....
if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you; or rather, "if ye hold fast, or retain"; that is, by faith, the doctrine preached to you, and received by you, particularly the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead; for the salvation that is connected with it does not depend upon the strength of the memory, but upon the truth and steadfastness of faith: it is the man that perseveres in the faith and doctrine of Christ that shall be saved; and everyone that has truly believed in Christ, and cordially embraced his Gospel, shall hold on, and out to the end; though the faith of nominal believers may be overthrown by such men, as Hymenaeus and Philetus, who asserted, that the resurrection was past already; but so shall not the faith of real believers, because the foundation on which they are built stands sure, and the Lord has perfect knowledge of them, and will keep and save them. The other exception is,

unless ye have believed in vain: not that true faith can be in vain; for that is the faith of God's elect, the gift of his grace, the operation of his Spirit; Christ is the author and finisher of it, and will never suffer it to fail; it will certainly issue in everlasting salvation: but then as the word may be heard in vain, as it is by such who are compared to the wayside, and to the thorny and rocky ground; and as the Gospel of the grace of God may be received in vain; so a mere historical faith may be in vain; this a man may have, and not the grace of God, and so be nothing; with this he may believe for a while, and then drop it: and since each of these might possibly be the case of some in this church, the apostle puts in these exceptions, in order to awaken the attention of them all to this important doctrine he was reminding them of.

From what I've written, I agree with Jethro Bodine in his explanation.

 

[Kidron]

The encouragement to all people is that justification is granted to a person through God's loving grace--simply for the asking. And you receive the grace of that justification through the vehicle of your believing, and you stay justified through that same vehicle of believing. Stop believing and you lose the justification that your believing solicits. That hardly qualifies as the works gospel that Paul warns us about.

Believing what God said about Christ, through the gift of faith he provided, is what secured your justification. It was not secured by works. And continuing in that exact same believing is not a work either.

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God, not us, is the author of our Salvation, and He delivers it completed, upon reception of our faith.
(Grace through Faith).
We give him our faith (trust), and he gives us the Blood Atonement, and that is how simple it is to be saved, to be born again.
And the process of salvation, is, that our sin and the punishment for it due us, which is a death penalty and hell, is given to JESUS and he dies bearing all of our lifetime of sin as that is OUR death penalty He is receiving on that Cross.
So, this is severe and incredible and also very very serious........and to think that after all that, a person can become unredeemed and
un-regenerated , and kicked out of God's family because they dont sweat it out till the end according to their opinion and personal theology, after Jesus went through all that to save us?

Listen, the "work" God required is Jesus on the Cross and our "work" is to believe it, and the easy part is to be given Christ's very righteousness for FREE., and once this is applied that is become our Righteousness in God's eyes, now and forever.
So, we dont have to live our born again lives in some sort of daily grind of effort trying to keep working works so that we dont slip into hell in the end because we were led to falsely believe that the Blood of Jesus only gets us halfway to eternity and communion and water and good deed doing and gripping the definition of salvation in our hearts till the day we expire is PART II of the plan of redemption that we better not fail or we end up in hell.

Salvation is a completed situation, its completed, its DONE, and it is given to us, it is imputed to us, it covers us with righteousness based on the Blood of Jesus from the day God gives it until the day we meet Him and tell Him, with tears, THANK YOU !!!!!
So, whomever you are that is suffering with trying to keep yourself saved, > stop trying to save yourself after you are already saved.
Dont continue to live within the misery of that Satanic Theological Trap.....but rather realize what God has completely and eternally solved for you through the Blood of Christ, and let this be an overwhelming JOY so that it fills you with continuing hope and blesses you everyday.
The Joy of Salvation, is not only understanding that God loved you so much that he gave His righteousness to you through the BLOOD of Jesus, but its also to realize that He created Redemption in such a way that our eternal salvation is laid on Jesus's shoulders to carry, and not on yours to try to keep yourself saved.
That is Amazing Grace.
THEN with this realization go out and work your good works and take your communion and love and forgive like you have been loved and forgiven, and give all you can of yourself every day in service and sacrifice for God your Father..... because NOW you will be doing it for HIM with the right motive, instead of doing it to try to save yourself, which is just self righteous works..