[_ Old Earth _] Denisovan/Neanderthal/Sapien sapiens

[Barbarian]

There are some who think that the Neandertals were nothing more than people of great age as presented in the bible.

That wouldn't work, since the remains of Neandertal children show the same anatomical features. Further, anatomically modern humans don't develop internal bracing ("simian shelf") in their jaw with age, nor do their skulls become lower and longer, nor do their shoulder joints reconfigure themselves into the Neandertal arrangement. Silly idea, that.

 

[Cygnus]

That wouldn't work, since the remains of Neandertal children show the same anatomical features. Further, anatomically modern humans don't develop internal bracing ("simian shelf") in their jaw with age, nor do their skulls become lower and longer, nor do their shoulder joints reconfigure themselves into the Neandertal arrangement. Silly idea, that.

The children have no brow ridge.


A few years back I saw a show on TV called Origins produced by Cornerstone Television out of Wall PA. The host of the show, Russ Bixler had a guest on named Dr. Jack Cuozzo who is an orthodontist of 30 years.

The show was most interesting and covered the topic of human longevity.

Dr. Cuozzo talked about the neanderthal man and their appearance. One of his points were that studies show that the human head does not stop growing as we age. He cited references from a study done by a Dr. Rolf Gordon Behrents, from the U of Michigan while he was working on his Ph.D.

Dr Behrents work involved the measurement of people heads when they were 19, late 40’s and some at age 80.

What was discovered was that the head changed in this fashion;


the brow ridge came forward

the jaw came forward

the nose got bigger

the chin came forward

the cheeks came forward and flattened out

the teeth came forward

the back of the head started to point out


Some of the measurements show that the nose moved 1.3 mm in 30 years while the browridge moved forward and upward 1.5 mm and the cheek bone moved 1.1 mm in the same 30 year period.

 

[Barbarian]

The children have no brow ridge.

Neither do modern children, even those that grow up to have prominent brow ridges. Me, for example. However, even very young Neandertal children had typical Neandertal anatomical traits:
http://www.jstor.org/stable/41496547?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

Dr. Cuozzo talked about the neanderthal man and their appearance. One of his points were that studies show that the human head does not stop growing as we age. He cited references from a study done by a Dr. Rolf Gordon Behrents, from the U of Michigan while he was working on his Ph.D.

Your dentist's analysis says that human jaws tend to protrude more as they get older. But Neandertal jaws are receding. They lack chins. So his point refutes his argument. By his analysis adult Neandertals should be younger than normal.

Neandertals lack a chin because they have internal bracing (the simian shelf) that most other hominids have, but not anatomically modern humans.

Another key piece of evidence relates to the observation that Neandertals didn't seem to use projectile weapons like throwing spears. Their shoulders are somewhat different than ours:

Projectile weaponry was an important component of early man's survival toolkit. Traces of projectile weaponry have been found in Africa dating back some 80,000 years. The mass migration by early man out of Africa into Europe some 40,000 to 50,000 years ago, show early European man developed and used bow and arrows and other projectile devices. The Rhodes/Churchill small sampling of Neanderthal's skeletal remains indicate he was outmatched by early modern man's development of a "throwing arm". This anatomical feature is measured by the degree of humeral retroversion in the dominant arm and in bilateral asymmetry.


Neanderthal's short squat body, massive limbs and lack of backward displacement at the shoulder joint may have hampered their ability to incorporate projectile weaponry. According to Jill Rhoades, an evolutionary anthropologist examinations of early modern European fossils show the backward displacement at the shoulder joint, but none of the small sampling of Neanderthal's skeletal remains carry this anatomical characteristic.


Modern athletes like baseball pitchers have this characteristic in one shoulder joint and it is referred to generally as their "throwing arm". When engaging in over head throwing activity, such as throwing a baseball or a spear, this increases the movement of the muscles and gives greater velocity and speed to the throw, according to Steven Churchill an anthropologist at Duke University.
http://phys.org/news/2009-01-neanderthal-lacked-anatomical-competitive-edge.html#jCp

 

[Jim Parker]

These early humans:

1. Had a culture…. Mellars, P. The Neanderthal Legacy. An Archaeological Perspective from Western Europe, (Princeton University Press, 1996)
2. Made exceptional bone tools….Soressi, M. et al. Neandertals made the first specialized bone tools in Europe. Proc. Natl Acad. Sci. USA 110, 14186–14190 (2013)
3. Produced sophisticated Red and Black pigments for social use…Soressi, M. & d’Errico, F. Pigments, gravures, parures: les comportements controversés des Néandertaliens. In Les Néandertaliens, Biologie et Cultures (eds Vandermeersch B. et Maureille B. ) Doc. Préhist. 23, Paris, CTHS, 297–309 (2007)
4. Exhibit burial rites…Maureille, B. & Vandermeersch, B. Les sépultures néandertaliennes. In Les Néandertaliens, Biologie et Cultures (eds Vandermeersch, B. & Maureille, B. ) Doc. Préhist. 23, Paris: CTHS,311–322 (2007)
5. They built underground structures 175,000 years ago…”Early Neanderthal constructions deep in Bruniquel Cave in southwestern France”, Nature, 534, 111–114, (02 June 2016)
6. Had organized purposeful living spaces…..the new research found that Neanderthals butchered animals, made tools and gathered round the fire in different parts of their caves.
7. They even had man-made hearths for heating and cooking in the living spaces of their caves.

Julien Riel-Salvatore, assistant professor of anthropology at the University of Colorado Denver (one of the lead researchers on and Italian find) tells us "There has been this idea that Neanderthals did not have an organized use of space, something that has always been attributed to humans," (Notice the Hypothesis based bias as if the Neanderthals or Denisovans were not “humans”)… "but we found that Neanderthals did not just throw their stuff everywhere but in fact were organized and purposeful when it came to domestic space…"! These findings, published in the Canadian Journal of Archaeology, are based on the excavations at Riparo Bombrini, (a rock shelter in northwest Italy). The evidence suggests different varieties of humans lived and socialized here even forming families.


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Thank you for your detailed posts. They have been most informative.

iakov the fool (AKA: Father Jim)

 

[Barbarian]

The children have no brow ridge.

So where does the evolutionary model and the creationist idea differ here? In this case it would be the expected age of the individuals. If Neanderthals were just extremely old people then we should only find adult skeletons, whilst palaeoanthropologists would expect to find Neanderthals of all ages. So the question is: have we found any young Neanderthals? Yes! There are almost a dozen of Neanderthal teenagers, children, babies and even a potential foetus; all possessing the unique characteristics that define Neanderthals. This demonstrates once and for all that they are not just old humans.

• La Moustier 1. A Neanderthal teenager who was around 15 – 19 years old when he died. From present day France, this teenager comes complete with the brow ridges, occipital bun, skull with a low, long profile and many of the other defining characteristics of Neanderthals.This is the only fossil on my list that has been discussed by creationists. It’s had a long and traumatic life, being lost/sold on many occasions and suffering damage during the second world war. As such some of the initial reconstructions after that were inaccurate, which was (as far as I can tell accurately) criticised by creationists. However, even when these issues are rectified the classic Neanderthal traits are still there.
  http://www.evoanth.net/2014/05/19/neanderthals-were-just-really-old-people-disproven

It seems particularly strange for an orthodontist to not notice that while old modern humans have protruding chins, Neandertals are chinless, with the "simian shelf" found on all hominids other than anatomically modern humans.


A few years back I saw a show on TV called Origins produced by Cornerstone Television out of Wall PA. The host of the show, Russ Bixler had a guest on named Dr. Jack Cuozzo who is an orthodontist of 30 years.

The show was most interesting and covered the topic of human longevity.

What was discovered was that the head changed in this fashion;
the brow ridge came forward
the jaw came forward
the nose got bigger
the chin came forward
the cheeks came forward and flattened out
the teeth came forward
the back of the head started to point out

That alone would rule out Neandertals as really old modern humans. You see, Neandertals lack the chins we have. Your guy's data refutes his belief. And of course, anatomically modern humans tend to have a higher doming of the cranium as they get older, not a flattening of the profile as found in Neandertals.

 

[brother Paul]

I believe by the word "old" the poster meant they were an ancient variety of sapien not elderly....and I know modern humans today who have flatter faces and lack "the chins" most of us have....our neighbor Linda had plastic surgery to add to hers

 

[Barbarian]

I believe by the word "old" the poster meant they were an ancient variety of sapien not elderly....

No, Cuozzo's idea is that they are just really old anatomically modern humans. But that falls apart because really old people have higher domed skulls, and more prominent chins. And of course, no modern human I ever heard of has a simian shelf, which even very young Neandertals had.

and I know modern humans today who have flatter faces and lack "the chins" most of us have....our neighbor Linda had plastic surgery to add to hers

A mental eminence is an essential characteristic of modern humans. It might be small, but it's there. And of course, no human develops a simian shelf.

All of the fossil hominids, including Neanderthal have a simian shelf, though it may be reduced in size. Fully modern humans have no simian shelf.
http://origins.swau.edu/papers/man/hominid/defaultx.html