Denomination Problem.

[CuriousChristian]

I don't really wanna side with any denomination. Each has serious issues, though I'm gonna mainly talk about Protestanism and Catholicism.

Catholicism claim to be the true church, yet I also can't disagree with some of the teachings. The argument for the church infallibility and its authority is really good, but I can't agree with stuff like purgatory or the Mary stuff, I find most of the arguments flawed. Yet if I join Catholicism, I must submit to all of its teachings.

Protestants claim the Bible is the only infallible authority, yet there are so much troubling verses or passages that can't be interpreted clearly unless there is an infallible authority saying the correct interpretations.

Catholicism claims to have the true church, which means if it is true, any other denomination has been going to a fake church. THAT'S PROBLEMATIC.

Catholicism claim that the Eucharists has the real body and blood of Christ. In John 6:53, Jesus says whoever does not eat his flesh and drink his blood does not have life in Him. If this is true, any other denomination loses its essential step to salvation, THAT'S PROBLEMATIC.

And both sides also have different view of Faith (although both agrees the only way to be saved is by Faith alone)
Protestanism says that Faith PRODUCES works,
Catholicisms says that Faith INCLUDES works.

If Protestanism is true, then technically Catholics are adding man-made parts into salvation, THAT'S PROBLEMATIC.

These are just a few.

The biggest problem is that I can't even stay neutral. Being non-denomination just means being protestant, which means I am technically 'forced' to pick sides. And I also can't be agnostic about it forever, because there must be a "true church".
Catholicism and Protestantism disagrees a lot of essential stuff that I can't be 'inbetween' them. One is true, other is wrong in a pretty serious ways.

That’s why the common statement, ‘Denomination doesn’t matter, what matters is if you put your faith in Christ,’ also doesn’t work. Faith in Christ is essential, but even denominations have different view of faith. But if you follow the wrong version of Christianity, you might be following the wrong gospel, one that either adds too much (like Catholicism) or removes something essential (like Protestantism).

I don't care what I feel, I care for truth. So I feel like I really should make the right choice, but I am not certain.

Help.

 

[Who Me]

I care for truth

Welcome to the forum.

What is important is that you are trusting in Jesus for your salvation.
After that theological differences, except for when they contradict scripture, are largely differences of understanding or interpretation.

Is there one united church? Yes the whole assembly of every Christian alive or in heaven.
Church organisations are mans attempt to organise Christians.
May I suggest that you check out how local churches practice what they preach and join what ever church does that best.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I don't care what I feel, I care for truth. So I feel like I really should make the right choice, but I am not certain.

I haven't "joined" either. I simply view Catholics who truly love God and love others as being His children, just as I view Baptists who do, or Calvinists who do, or Pentecostals who do. I see all denominations as having some errors in their doctrines as well, so I refuse to get into any "us versus them" scenarios. If I can tell a person genuinely loves Christ by their behavior and their primary beliefs, I count them as brethren. I'm going to disagree with everyone on something, so being 100% in agreement is never a goal of mine, nor should it be of yours I would think.

Blessings in Christ, and thank you for the question.
Hidden

 

[jonathanbrickman0000]

Welcome indeed, CC. Your struggles are not unique The Lord took me out of the Judaism of my entire known family and ancestry, and the issues you raise have been most extremely difficult for me, too.

The biggest problem is that I can't even stay neutral. Being non-denomination just means being protestant, which means I am technically 'forced' to pick sides. And I also can't be agnostic about it forever, because there must be a "true church".
Catholicism and Protestantism disagrees a lot of essential stuff that I can't be 'inbetween' them. One is true, other is wrong in a pretty serious ways.

We cannot stay neutral, in their eyes. They will always regard us as either "of the herd" or "not of the herd", and I'm using that word "herd" to emphasize that neither herd, none of those herds, is Christ, is His true church. The only solution I have ever encountered, is the Holy One Himself: we must ask Him to change us, so that we do not care what comes up in their eyes, we care only about what is in His eyes, regarding His church and our presence within it. As He changes us in this way, we start to care more and more about what matters, for joy in His purposes, and less and less about the foolish reasoning dominating all of those.

It can be helpful to search the Gospels for that word "reasoning". It refers to what proud theologians and wannabes today call "logic". It can be most helpful, to study what the Lord does, every single time He is involved with this word. Walking in His way in this particular area, can give us a much less stressful, much less difficult, existence.

I have met persons of the Lord's true church among Baptists, Lutherans, Romans, Church of Christers, various flavors of so-called orthodox, and others. I have cause to profoundly disrespect, all of their leaders who claim either primacy or exclusivity. And if such leaders try to invade His space within my soul gently, I defend against them gently; if they try to invade in a significant fashion, He has often given me enough to help them know more error of their way, if they care at all about that which Christ the Lord has said, done, and discussed. If they do, a better relationship results, even though distance will remain because of the large number of issues. If they don't, it doesn't matter, because they don't; they will remain strangers, unless the Lord does something to change that in the future.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I don't care what I feel, I care for truth. So I feel like I really should make the right choice, but I am not certain.

Help.

Well, from your comments I can see you have done some home work and have come to a just conclusion that there is a problem.
I would discard the idea that the R.C.s are correct. As you said, they set men up as the ultimate authority such that their authority allows them to infallibly interpret the bible for men, and add to it, as you mentioned, with things like purgatory. They claim to be infallible in their decisions, but if you study their history long enough you will find contradictions that prove the claims of infallibility to be false. As you mentioned, they believe in salvation by faith and WORKS which is contrary to the bible. (see https://carm.org/roman-catholicism/summary-of-process-of-salvation-in-roman-catholicism/)

Roman Catholicism Errors (Comparison to Protestantism - Mike Gendron)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdlczbO5Csc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGXveG26m2M&t=1191s

...anyways, enough bashing of the R.C.s ... now, which protestant denomination speaks the truth or maybe the question should be: which protestant denomination comes closest to the truth? You're not going to get an provable answer to that question directly. You will have to determine what truth is yourself and then apply it to the beliefs of various denomination to see which come closest to the truth. Keep in mind that will be flaws in both your concepts of truth and your understanding of their concepts of truth. Also, most denominations concepts of truth are not clearly spelt out for evaluation. (Aside: I give the R.C.s commendation in that they do spell out what they believe better than most protestant denominations.)

So, to the crux of the matter, how do you determine truth? I suggest reading systematic theology books.

Systematic Theology is a field of systematization of one Book which is God-breathed. The power to comprehend this Book is gained only as taught by the Spirit of God: 1 Corinthians 2:13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The Bible is not understood nor received by unregenerate men: 1 Corinthians 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

The Bible is to the theologian what nature is to the scientist, --a body of unorganized or only partially organized facts. It is necessary, therefore, if we are to know all the facts on any given subject for us to gather together the scattered teachings and to construct them into a logical and harmonious system. The function of systematic theology is to unfold the Bible using revelation and reason; where the former trumps the latter. It is the orderly collecting, scientifically arranging, comparing, exhibiting and defending of all facts from any and every biblical source concerning God and His works. Ideally, all facts forming a doctrine are harmonious; on occasion not all the facts are harmonious for man is finite and God is infinite. Isaiah 55:8 (AMP) “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the Lord. 9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts higher than your thoughts. Author unknown

There are many Systematic Theology books. Wayne Grudem wrote one and that might be a good starting point.

Sorry for long answer and sorry that you will have to do a lot of homework in order to answer your question to your satisfaction.

 

[jonathanbrickman0000]

Well, Fastfredy0 , I won't wax lyrical right here...but if you find yourself interested, we might go to the Theology section and start a new thread, I'd be happy to identify very large, gaping, slimy, and stinky holes in any set of systematic theology you might care to bring forward Do let me know

 

[Christ_empowered]

Hi

My personal current approach…as someone who leans towards Calvinism btw…

Is to try to focus on Jesus Christ. Evangelicals say…or once said not that long ago…that Christianity is not a religion but rather a relationship with Jesus Christ. Ok

Sometimes I do honestly think that believers within Christianity are worshipping different deities. It’s disconcerting especially since most of us are equipped with the same bible. Speaking of which…

Scripture quotes Jesus Christ speaking about the wheat and the tares, wolves in sheep’s clothing, false teachers, and false prophets. Heresy and division are an issue already in acts.

Ye shall know a tree by the fruit it bears…

Work out your salvation with fear and trembling…

personal side note : I remind myself that Jesus Christ will judge me, as an individual. His judgment is perfect. Jesus Christ judges individuals not denominations.

 

[jonathanbrickman0000]

Indeed. One of the more obvious giveaways I encounter, is whose voice in Holy Scripture is given to supercede all. One of the pitfalls of much "systematic theology", and Romanism, and lots of other divisiveness, is permitting other voices to supercede that which Christ the Lord has said.

 

[Christ_empowered]

A point that just dawned on me…

Within Protestant churches doctrine is becoming less and less of an issue. A lifelong Christian I knew switched to a different denomination because of issues locally…

The reformed churches were rather cold and un accommodating to the family especially the disabled offspring. A local Protestant church they attended was much more tolerant and more fulfilling for the family.

Other times people get burned by church politics and go to a church where they feel welcome and are able to avoid such drama .

Here near me a megachurch is losing members after getting rid of a charismatic leader who was deemed unfit to continue leading the church ️.

My point is that a local church should feed their members and challenge them to grow in Christ. Maybe the church has sound doctrine on their official website etc but they fail to provide a good community for some people. Sometimes a church can meet a member’s needs for a time and then the situation changes…

 

[Free]

I don't really wanna side with any denomination. Each has serious issues, though I'm gonna mainly talk about Protestanism and Catholicism.

Catholicism claim to be the true church, yet I also can't disagree with some of the teachings. The argument for the church infallibility and its authority is really good, but I can't agree with stuff like purgatory or the Mary stuff, I find most of the arguments flawed. Yet if I join Catholicism, I must submit to all of its teachings.

Protestants claim the Bible is the only infallible authority, yet there are so much troubling verses or passages that can't be interpreted clearly unless there is an infallible authority saying the correct interpretations.

Catholicism claims to have the true church, which means if it is true, any other denomination has been going to a fake church. THAT'S PROBLEMATIC.

Catholicism claim that the Eucharists has the real body and blood of Christ. In John 6:53, Jesus says whoever does not eat his flesh and drink his blood does not have life in Him. If this is true, any other denomination loses its essential step to salvation, THAT'S PROBLEMATIC.

And both sides also have different view of Faith (although both agrees the only way to be saved is by Faith alone)
Protestanism says that Faith PRODUCES works,
Catholicisms says that Faith INCLUDES works.

If Protestanism is true, then technically Catholics are adding man-made parts into salvation, THAT'S PROBLEMATIC.

These are just a few.

The biggest problem is that I can't even stay neutral. Being non-denomination just means being protestant, which means I am technically 'forced' to pick sides. And I also can't be agnostic about it forever, because there must be a "true church".
Catholicism and Protestantism disagrees a lot of essential stuff that I can't be 'inbetween' them. One is true, other is wrong in a pretty serious ways.

That’s why the common statement, ‘Denomination doesn’t matter, what matters is if you put your faith in Christ,’ also doesn’t work. Faith in Christ is essential, but even denominations have different view of faith. But if you follow the wrong version of Christianity, you might be following the wrong gospel, one that either adds too much (like Catholicism) or removes something essential (like Protestantism).

I don't care what I feel, I care for truth. So I feel like I really should make the right choice, but I am not certain.

Help.

It would be helpful to understand that "denomination" typically doesn't refer to Catholic vs. Protestant. Denominations are largely thought of as the distinctions within Protestantism.

The Bible, while not the only authority for Protestants, is the supreme and only infallible authority. But it does not follow that we need an infallible human authority to understand it. We do have the Holy Spirit to help, but God wants us to wrestle with these things. Even Paul said that "For now we see in a mirror dimly" (1 Cor. 13:12) and Peter said that Paul wrote some things "that are hard to understand" (2 Pet. 3:16).

I reject any idea of the infallibility of the Pope and there are very good reasons for doing so. All Catholic leaders have been and are fallible.

Regarding faith producing works and faith with works, it is more nuanced. If I remember correctly, there are some key words--justification and sanctification--that are defined differently. Protestants still believe that works are necessary, apart from being evidence of being saved, as they are a part of our sanctification.

The true Church is those true believers in all Christian traditions. Not all Catholics nor Orthodox are Christians, but neither are all Protestants. You do need to make a choice and, of course, I think Catholicism just has too much error and superstition added onto it, but that doesn't necessarily mean all priests and Catholic churches are going to teach those additions.

Within Protestantism, there are worse choices than Catholicism, like Word of Faith, which are all but completely heretical. And some of their teachings have crept into other denominations or individual churches within those denominations to varying degrees.

It's not easy. I hope you spend much time in prayer about it.

 

[WIP]

I don't care what I feel, I care for truth. So I feel like I really should make the right choice, but I am not certain.

One thing is certain, you will not find a perfect denomination for none exists. But, at the same time, you should not neglect to gather in fellowship as we are instructed in Hebrews 10:24-25. Fellowship with other believers is important for Bible study as well as spiritual support. Going it alone can be just as dangerous because we will formulate our own doctrine to fit our desires. It's important to always weigh what is being taught against Scripture as instructed in 1 John 1 and as the example given in Acts 17:11.

Quite often we are lazy Christians. We don't want to do the work of Bible study, meditation, prayer, etc. but would prefer to just sit in a church pew for an hour a week and listen to a 20-minute sermon without questioning what is being taught.

 

[for_his_glory]

Is God about a man's religion, or is He about having that personal relationship with His only begotten Son Christ Jesus. Is it denominations/non-denominations that teach us the word of God, or is it the Holy Spirit that teaches us all truths. Even the early church Fathers could not agree with each other. Learn to test the spirits of truth or error so you will not be deceived.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

1John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

1John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
1John 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
1John 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

 

[Daryn]

I don't really wanna side with any denomination. Each has serious issues, though I'm gonna mainly talk about Protestanism and Catholicism.

Catholicism claim to be the true church, yet I also can't disagree with some of the teachings. The argument for the church infallibility and its authority is really good, but I can't agree with stuff like purgatory or the Mary stuff, I find most of the arguments flawed. Yet if I join Catholicism, I must submit to all of its teachings.

Protestants claim the Bible is the only infallible authority, yet there are so much troubling verses or passages that can't be interpreted clearly unless there is an infallible authority saying the correct interpretations.

Catholicism claims to have the true church, which means if it is true, any other denomination has been going to a fake church. THAT'S PROBLEMATIC.

Catholicism claim that the Eucharists has the real body and blood of Christ. In John 6:53, Jesus says whoever does not eat his flesh and drink his blood does not have life in Him. If this is true, any other denomination loses its essential step to salvation, THAT'S PROBLEMATIC.

And both sides also have different view of Faith (although both agrees the only way to be saved is by Faith alone)
Protestanism says that Faith PRODUCES works,
Catholicisms says that Faith INCLUDES works.

If Protestanism is true, then technically Catholics are adding man-made parts into salvation, THAT'S PROBLEMATIC.

These are just a few.

The biggest problem is that I can't even stay neutral. Being non-denomination just means being protestant, which means I am technically 'forced' to pick sides. And I also can't be agnostic about it forever, because there must be a "true church".
Catholicism and Protestantism disagrees a lot of essential stuff that I can't be 'inbetween' them. One is true, other is wrong in a pretty serious ways.

That’s why the common statement, ‘Denomination doesn’t matter, what matters is if you put your faith in Christ,’ also doesn’t work. Faith in Christ is essential, but even denominations have different view of faith. But if you follow the wrong version of Christianity, you might be following the wrong gospel, one that either adds too much (like Catholicism) or removes something essential (like Protestantism).

I don't care what I feel, I care for truth. So I feel like I really should make the right choice, but I am not certain.

Help.

Catholicism is a cult.

 

[for_his_glory]

Catholicism is a cult.

No, as there are many sound doctrines within the Catholic Church that is found in the scriptures, but yet other doctrines they teach that come against scripture. We can actually see this in many denominations.

 

[Free]

Catholicism is a cult.

Many people sure think so, but I do think there are variations with individual churches and not all Catholics are not saved. It's not like they're JWs, Mormons, Christadelphians, or any other number of cults.

 

[Fastfredy0]

and not all Catholics are not saved

... maybe the question to be asked is whether a person that follows R.C. doctrine to the letter is saved. This differs from those who assign themselves the R.C. label.

Catholicism is a cult.

James White believes Roman Catholics are not Christians though other reformed theologians disagree. James White’s goes as follows: White goes on to say that many Roman Catholics are not in agreement with the church and believe in justification by faith alone.

When you understand the idolatry of the mass, that propitiatory sacrifice of Christ can never save anyone, the treasury of merit, indulgences, the excess merit of Mary, purgatory, that one righteousness consists of that of Christ, Mary, the saints and oneself, sacraments, that the priest is another Christ … then one does not have the gospel of that leads to salvation. James White, See Galatians 1:6-9

Even if we restrict Paul's anathema to the letter's context of justification by faith in Christ, and thus also all the other doctrines that are required to maintain its coherence, this passage is sufficient to condemn all non-Christian religions and philosophies – all non-Christian ways of thinking – as paths to everlasting destruction in hell. These must include Catholicism, Mormonism … Vincent Cheung www.vincentcheung.com/books/Commentary on Galatians.pdf
Would have eternal consequences to get this wrong. I believe God chooses so there is no chance of missing out because you 'blew it'. But, I could be wrong and if so you better study hard and hope you come to the correct (salvific) conclusion.

Good luck/studies ... . ... or fortunate predestination.

John 15:16 You did not pick me, but I picked you.
John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the right [the authority, the privilege] to become children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh [physical impulse], nor of the will of man [that of a natural father], but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified].
John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.”

 

[for_his_glory]

... maybe the question to be asked is whether a person that follows R.C. doctrine to the letter is saved. This differs from those who assign themselves the R.C. label.



James White believes Roman Catholics are not Christians though other reformed theologians disagree. James White’s goes as follows: White goes on to say that many Roman Catholics are not in agreement with the church and believe in justification by faith alone.

When you understand the idolatry of the mass, that propitiatory sacrifice of Christ can never save anyone, the treasury of merit, indulgences, the excess merit of Mary, purgatory, that one righteousness consists of that of Christ, Mary, the saints and oneself, sacraments, that the priest is another Christ … then one does not have the gospel of that leads to salvation. James White, See Galatians 1:6-9

Even if we restrict Paul's anathema to the letter's context of justification by faith in Christ, and thus also all the other doctrines that are required to maintain its coherence, this passage is sufficient to condemn all non-Christian religions and philosophies – all non-Christian ways of thinking – as paths to everlasting destruction in hell. These must include Catholicism, Mormonism … Vincent Cheung www.vincentcheung.com/books/Commentary on Galatians.pdf
Would have eternal consequences to get this wrong. I believe God chooses so there is no chance of missing out because you 'blew it'. But, I could be wrong and if so you better study hard and hope you come to the correct (salvific) conclusion.

Good luck/studies ... . ... or fortunate predestination.

John 15:16 You did not pick me, but I picked you.
John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the right [the authority, the privilege] to become children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh [physical impulse], nor of the will of man [that of a natural father], but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified].
John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.”

The biggest problem is that people lack the knowledge of that which has already been written before there was Denominational doctrines. Many would rather believe in everything that comes out of the pulpit as they are to lazyto study for themselves allowing the Holy Spirit teach them.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hosea 4:7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.


Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

 

[CuriousChristian]

Thanks to everyone so far who have replied to me!

You guys have been very helpful, and I thank God and all of you for that.
Sorry If I have kinda been silent about it as well, I'm not that good of a speaker myself.

God Bless everyone!