Mizzy
Member
Never heard of it. Googled it. My thoughts are unchanged.
It's the same with Christians. God will do the weeding on that Great Day.
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
Never heard of it. Googled it. My thoughts are unchanged.
It's the same with Christians. God will do the weeding on that Great Day.
jasoncran
Member
I understand that, however, that is used for by some to say modern day isreal isn't really isreal. dna never had anything to do with the isreal anyway.it was about the way and culture that had to be adopted. its also against the tos to push conspiracy theories. and that one fits.
Mizzy
Member
Ahhh, okay. Yes, I've heard some of the arguments about it, but not this one. Nonetheless, I agree. It was never about lineage, but a true desire to follow God.
jasoncran
Member
he is doubting that modern jews are jews because of lack of dna evidence. well if that the problem then the issue here is then who are the real arabs?both are semites and related. yet the jews are closest to the Italians and yet share few markers with the arabs or any romans as they didn't intermix.
J
Joe Domingo
Guest
Ok so I will provide a full explanation of where I stand on this issue.
Some 25 years ago I had come to a conclusion that God was never interested in establishing a master race of people or a chosen race. He was indeed starting a Nation of people but it was not based on Race. God was looking for the same thing in the children of Jacob that he found in Abraham. He was looking for faith in the inward parts of man.
This is the reason why I do not place much stock in any person in any part of this world claiming they are a Jew - as a race. I simply do not recognize a "race" of Jews. I do this because I know that no one can trace back to Jacob or Judah. If we had Jacob or Judah's bones I would gladly accept the DNA results of anyone's test results. Until that day comes, I simply do not recognize the racial aspect of Jewry.
Now I am always ready to accept anyone that says they are a person of faith. This covers all Christians and even those who say they are spiritual Israel or a spiritual Jew. Hence, these are a statement of faith. See Romans 2:28-29 and Gal. 6:16. It is an oxymoron to say that a person who does not believe in Jesus can somehow be Jew by Faith. I saw this remark somewhere. This is not posible. You cannot be a Jew by faith without Christ.
There is no conspiracy here - I don't recognize God having a chosen race. I have a right to believe this way and no TOS can stop my Right. God has always and only had a chosen nation of believers. This was the understanding Abraham had.
Now in terms of lineage and race the Bible provides some evidence.
Scripture revealing Jacob's race: Deuteronomy 26:5
And thou shalt speak and say before the LORD thy God, A Syrian ready to perish was my father, and he went down into Egypt, and sojourned there with a few, and became there a nation, great, mighty, and populous:
Abraham, sarah, Isaac, Rebecca, Jacob, Leah, Zilpah, Rachel, Bilhah were all Syrian, some Bibles same Aramean (same place)
This of course makes all of Jacob's sons Syrian.
Even more interesting is how the bloodlines begin to mix with other races at a very early start in Israel.
Simeon married a Canaannite
Judah married a Canaanite
The rest of the brothers I co not find their wives ethnicity
Moses married a Midianite
I totally acknowledge Israel but not because of Zionism. Israel is Israel because God says it is, not because of WWII and Zionist endeavours.
I hope my position is clear.
This statement supersedes any remark or comment having to do with Khazars. Deuteronomy 26:5 is all that is needed for this subject. I should have just used that scripture from the beginning since I have been aware of it for quite some time now.
Some 25 years ago I had come to a conclusion that God was never interested in establishing a master race of people or a chosen race. He was indeed starting a Nation of people but it was not based on Race. God was looking for the same thing in the children of Jacob that he found in Abraham. He was looking for faith in the inward parts of man.
This is the reason why I do not place much stock in any person in any part of this world claiming they are a Jew - as a race. I simply do not recognize a "race" of Jews. I do this because I know that no one can trace back to Jacob or Judah. If we had Jacob or Judah's bones I would gladly accept the DNA results of anyone's test results. Until that day comes, I simply do not recognize the racial aspect of Jewry.
Now I am always ready to accept anyone that says they are a person of faith. This covers all Christians and even those who say they are spiritual Israel or a spiritual Jew. Hence, these are a statement of faith. See Romans 2:28-29 and Gal. 6:16. It is an oxymoron to say that a person who does not believe in Jesus can somehow be Jew by Faith. I saw this remark somewhere. This is not posible. You cannot be a Jew by faith without Christ.
There is no conspiracy here - I don't recognize God having a chosen race. I have a right to believe this way and no TOS can stop my Right. God has always and only had a chosen nation of believers. This was the understanding Abraham had.
Now in terms of lineage and race the Bible provides some evidence.
Scripture revealing Jacob's race: Deuteronomy 26:5
And thou shalt speak and say before the LORD thy God, A Syrian ready to perish was my father, and he went down into Egypt, and sojourned there with a few, and became there a nation, great, mighty, and populous:
Abraham, sarah, Isaac, Rebecca, Jacob, Leah, Zilpah, Rachel, Bilhah were all Syrian, some Bibles same Aramean (same place)
This of course makes all of Jacob's sons Syrian.
Even more interesting is how the bloodlines begin to mix with other races at a very early start in Israel.
Simeon married a Canaannite
Judah married a Canaanite
The rest of the brothers I co not find their wives ethnicity
Moses married a Midianite
I totally acknowledge Israel but not because of Zionism. Israel is Israel because God says it is, not because of WWII and Zionist endeavours.
I hope my position is clear.
This statement supersedes any remark or comment having to do with Khazars. Deuteronomy 26:5 is all that is needed for this subject. I should have just used that scripture from the beginning since I have been aware of it for quite some time now.
Last edited by a moderator:
tim-from-pa
Member
I know what you are saying, and I agree. This is why I believe the tribes of Israel migrated to what is geographically NW Europe and Britain, and ultimately here we are in the USA (since we mostly have such origins). I have reason to believe this out of necessity otherwise I'd effectively be denying the bible.
But don't expect DNA to solve that, because when they want to trace DNA of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, to whom do they come it to? The Jews of course.
But I say you can't do that, as the Jews are historically just part of Israel, and are distant cousins to the other Israelites. And my belief is that just as the DNA diverged in only 10 generations from Noah to Abraham so that creation scientists claim we can distinctly trace the lineages of Shem, Japheth, and Ham, I would think that the blood lineages between Jews and Israelites would likewise diverge in something like 130 generations so that an Israelite does not necessarily have the same DNA markers as Jews. Even Jewish people amongst themselves are not similar as there's two main lines I am aware of (and thus the Christian Identity doctrines that many Jews are not true Jews). I disagree with that, of course, but the point of what I am saying is that one cannot say they are not related to Abraham because they don't have genetic markers of Jews --- that's all I'm saying.
I feel sorry some here made light of your question, and the promises to Israel are race related, just as there's some promises to people of faith. But there's a lot of spiritualizing and replacement theology going on these days, in the same manner that obscure relatives that have nothing to do with you suddenly show up when an inheritance is to be given out after someone dies. Such people would fit nicely in the spiritualizing and replacement groups and they just love to wave the hands and praise the Lord. (Whatever)
However, there's a place for an earthly inheritance, and spiritual promises and how they interrelate in Yahweh's plan for man's redemption.
J
Joe Domingo
Guest
These don't sound relevant to this thread.
There is no need for any Member to "bow out" from a thread discussion simply because one Member believes that certain comments are unwelcome or do not [to them only] sound relevant.
Of course the move that shows how the subject relates to the bigger picture is relevant. In movie making it's called a "wide pan". This "move" involves the camera giving view, let's say a wide 'birds-eye' view. It could show, for instance, an overview of a small village then move toward a forest on the outskirts of the small town or village. Then the camera could continue to let the watcher see the relationship of that forest to the town or the townspeople. It's relevant because it gives perspective. Later the camera may zoom in on a single tree. It could zoom further in on a leaf. The "relevance" of the overview is that it shows how that leaf is situated in the larger picture.
In much the same way, reba's comment about our relationship in Christ through the blood shared with all who have been called (both Jew and Gentile alike) shows relationship. The "zoom move" may be used to show a possible outcome where "proof" of being related to Nimrod is a look at a potential (imaginary) leaf. The overview that is given by yet another member emphasizes the need to see the forest from the trees.
Relevant? Absolutely. But perhaps not in the view of one member who shall remain anonymous? Oh wait. Too late.
Of course the move that shows how the subject relates to the bigger picture is relevant. In movie making it's called a "wide pan". This "move" involves the camera giving view, let's say a wide 'birds-eye' view. It could show, for instance, an overview of a small village then move toward a forest on the outskirts of the small town or village. Then the camera could continue to let the watcher see the relationship of that forest to the town or the townspeople. It's relevant because it gives perspective. Later the camera may zoom in on a single tree. It could zoom further in on a leaf. The "relevance" of the overview is that it shows how that leaf is situated in the larger picture.
In much the same way, reba's comment about our relationship in Christ through the blood shared with all who have been called (both Jew and Gentile alike) shows relationship. The "zoom move" may be used to show a possible outcome where "proof" of being related to Nimrod is a look at a potential (imaginary) leaf. The overview that is given by yet another member emphasizes the need to see the forest from the trees.
Relevant? Absolutely. But perhaps not in the view of one member who shall remain anonymous? Oh wait. Too late.
turnorburn
Member
Joe said
I can..
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
And his name was Adam, that's why your running into a stumbling block Joe. I'm pretty certain that everyone here believes we descended from Adam well before Abraham Isaac and Jacob..
tob
I can..
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
And his name was Adam, that's why your running into a stumbling block Joe. I'm pretty certain that everyone here believes we descended from Adam well before Abraham Isaac and Jacob..
tob
J
Joe Domingo
Guest
There is no need to bow out of the thread. I'm not sensitive at all. The point I made was simple - the comments some of you are making are simply not relevant to this thread. Even the last two post are skirting around the issue. But, what can I expect? The scientific facts buttress my opening statement and who can refute them? Anyone with just a small amount of familiarity with how DNA works understand that there is no possible way for a person of today's generation to trace back to a Patriarch.
That we all come from Adam is a no brainer. But that is not what the thread is all about isn't it?
Far as I'm concern I think this thread is dead. It was never taken seriously and I am ok with that - Jesus is still sweeter than ever right folks? But aside from Jesus being so wonderful to us, I guess the nucleus of this thread would step on too many theological and doctrinal toes, not to mention the myriad Christian organizations that support Zionism.
I'm willing to let it go if you are ....
That we all come from Adam is a no brainer. But that is not what the thread is all about isn't it?
Far as I'm concern I think this thread is dead. It was never taken seriously and I am ok with that - Jesus is still sweeter than ever right folks? But aside from Jesus being so wonderful to us, I guess the nucleus of this thread would step on too many theological and doctrinal toes, not to mention the myriad Christian organizations that support Zionism.
I'm willing to let it go if you are ....
tim-from-pa
Member
Joe,
I answered and basically mentioned the same thing you did. I am skeptical of DNA, and yes, with today's knowledge it is essentially impossible to positively trace back to Abraham, Isaac or Jacob. And even if we could, probably every person has a touch of those genes in their body. Does this make everyone the chosen lineage? The answer is no. But biblically the solution was to watch after geneaolgies where several books of the bible are replete with them.
However, I get the same reception with that idea as you did with DNA, but the fact is that if you can trace your line to royalty, specifically European, then that goes back to King David, or earlier Kings of Judah before David because of genealogies. And if to Judah, then certainly back to Adam. So, anyone with royal blood in them can at least claim the lineage to Judah (but even with that line not necessarily the right to rule).
This indeed did fulfill the promises in Genesis 49 when Judah bears the scepter for all times and generations, even that of Solomon's eternal throne until Christ comes back to claim it from whoever is on it at the time.
And where the King(s) is/are, that's where the rest of Israel is. Don't need DNA IMO. The bible predicted the fate of Israel quite well instead.
Interesting.
IMHO. Genetics is about my outer man. There are only 8 persons that form the gene pool (?). Because I believe in genetics I believe in a plan of life. The revealed word of God (the word made flesh - Jesus mainly), is my born again plan of life. The spirit of our minds is more an ultimate reality than our physical flesh. The flesh exists, but it is a shadow of the reality, rather than the reality that cast the shadow. Physical genetics just let's us know there is a spiritual plan. I agree with reba in looking to the spiritual. Flesh and blood (including genetics) does not inherit the kingdom. Belief in God helped Abraham be established. I am a child of Abraham if I believe like he did.
After all as a Mississippi person my bloodline might be messed up LOL .
eddif
IMHO. Genetics is about my outer man. There are only 8 persons that form the gene pool (?). Because I believe in genetics I believe in a plan of life. The revealed word of God (the word made flesh - Jesus mainly), is my born again plan of life. The spirit of our minds is more an ultimate reality than our physical flesh. The flesh exists, but it is a shadow of the reality, rather than the reality that cast the shadow. Physical genetics just let's us know there is a spiritual plan. I agree with reba in looking to the spiritual. Flesh and blood (including genetics) does not inherit the kingdom. Belief in God helped Abraham be established. I am a child of Abraham if I believe like he did.
After all as a Mississippi person my bloodline might be messed up LOL .
eddif
I've recently given some thought to the question of "race". It appears to me that Noah and his sons were alive and well when the Lord acted to confuse and scatter at the Tower of Babel. It also appears that at least one son had at least one child after that time. No, I've not done a "scholarly" paper or study on the subject because my point is merely a speculation and not a 'teaching'.
If the Lord acted in such a way —that the 'stuff' that we now think of as DNA was changed at the time of that confusion and scattering— would not the change be carried forward though all those who were alive at that time?
Here's the primary Scripture that was used to support my supposition:
The term, "The Tower of Babel" does not literally appear in the Bible because in Scripture this is always referred to as, "The City and its Tower". In Genesis 10, Babel is said to have formed part of Nimrod's kingdom. This is not specifically seen in the bible: that he (Nimrod) ordered the tower to be built, but Nimrod is often associated with its construction in other sources. The Hebrew version of the name of the city and the tower, Babel, is attributed in Gen. 11:9 to the verb balal, which means to confuse or confound.
View attachment 3213
The flag of the Language Creation Society has a picture of the Tower of Babel at its center.
James Ussher's date places the Babel story 106 years after the Flood of Noah. The sons of Noah each had a large number of sons: four, five, and seven, for a total of sixteen families in a generation that began directly after the Flood. One hundred six years allows time for five generations, and if each family produced eight more families, the population could reach at least 65,000 in a hundred years, more than enough to attempt to build a city and the tower there. (http://nwcreation.net/)
See also the Henry M. Morris book excerpt, "Babel and the World Population:
Biblical Demography and Linguistics" for a more precise analysis. This source is included for the benefit of those who like to research and prove all things.
My supposition, that is made here, contains several assumptions of which 3 are listed below:
REFERENCES /// FOOTNOTES:
Ussher, James. The Annals of the World, Larry Pierce, ed. Green Forest, AR: Master Books, 2003, pghh. 48-49
If the Lord acted in such a way —that the 'stuff' that we now think of as DNA was changed at the time of that confusion and scattering— would not the change be carried forward though all those who were alive at that time?
Here's the primary Scripture that was used to support my supposition:
The term, "The Tower of Babel" does not literally appear in the Bible because in Scripture this is always referred to as, "The City and its Tower". In Genesis 10, Babel is said to have formed part of Nimrod's kingdom. This is not specifically seen in the bible: that he (Nimrod) ordered the tower to be built, but Nimrod is often associated with its construction in other sources. The Hebrew version of the name of the city and the tower, Babel, is attributed in Gen. 11:9 to the verb balal, which means to confuse or confound.
Wikipedea said:
View attachment 3213
The flag of the Language Creation Society has a picture of the Tower of Babel at its center.
James Ussher's date places the Babel story 106 years after the Flood of Noah. The sons of Noah each had a large number of sons: four, five, and seven, for a total of sixteen families in a generation that began directly after the Flood. One hundred six years allows time for five generations, and if each family produced eight more families, the population could reach at least 65,000 in a hundred years, more than enough to attempt to build a city and the tower there. (http://nwcreation.net/)
See also the Henry M. Morris book excerpt, "Babel and the World Population:
Biblical Demography and Linguistics" for a more precise analysis. This source is included for the benefit of those who like to research and prove all things.
My supposition, that is made here, contains several assumptions of which 3 are listed below:- That the Bible in the original language is true and is the Word of God
- That my personal understanding of this truth is as revealed (at best) and is also limited
- That others are better able to teach, carry, confirm or deny my understanding as presented here.
REFERENCES /// FOOTNOTES:
Ussher, James. The Annals of the World, Larry Pierce, ed. Green Forest, AR: Master Books, 2003, pghh. 48-49
B
Brother Mike
Guest
Joe Domingo
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
That beats any scientific study of DNA. The one that made DNA said it.
Mike.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
That beats any scientific study of DNA. The one that made DNA said it.
Mike.
BeTheLightTees
Member
Our bodies don't really matter. Yes Our bodies are a temple, but once we die they are dust. I feel like spending time looking for something like this is just a waist of your time. Whatever you find outside of being fascinating doesn't hold any value.
J
Joe Domingo
Guest
I almost don't want to respond but I have to sad face.
Thanks for all the responses much appreciate it.
I see that pretty much everybody avoided the core of my reason to create such a thread - yes, avoided the core like a plague.
Well here it goes. Oh boy I can feel the daggers already. Lord help me.
I created the thread because starting with my dad and mom and friends and brothers and sisters in my local congregations, yes even my wife's JW family members. Everyone swears that those people that wear black and have those special haircuts are God's chosen people. Or, what about the Messianic congregations that love to tout theirongregation with the appealing "where Jew and Gentile worship together". Or what about Sid Roth and the likes.
Guess what I'm saying is that I don't accept any of that - the Word of God teaches me something different. The Word of God has taught me that God does not have a "Chosen people" per DNA. But, that his "chosen people" were, are, and will always be people born of the spirit. That God is after the inward parts of a man and not his flesh. That how can there actually be an identifiable "chosen race" called the Jews or Jewish people as a race when such a race cannot be scientifically supported or proved. That even a person who is born Jewish, is only born Jewish because his parents were Jewish. But how far back can that person claim his heritage? when indeed and in fact, no person born Jewish can claim their heritage with any confidence back to Jacob or any of the twelve patriarchs.
until God can show me proof, that someone is indeed proven to be a descendent of the Patriarchs, I will not accept what everyone around me accepts so easily.
Now let me add this one note.
Yes I do believe that in this planet, there are people with traces of the Patriarchs bloodline in them ... but, only God knows who they are, not us.
Thanks for all the responses much appreciate it.
I see that pretty much everybody avoided the core of my reason to create such a thread - yes, avoided the core like a plague.
Well here it goes. Oh boy I can feel the daggers already. Lord help me.
I created the thread because starting with my dad and mom and friends and brothers and sisters in my local congregations, yes even my wife's JW family members. Everyone swears that those people that wear black and have those special haircuts are God's chosen people. Or, what about the Messianic congregations that love to tout theirongregation with the appealing "where Jew and Gentile worship together". Or what about Sid Roth and the likes.
Guess what I'm saying is that I don't accept any of that - the Word of God teaches me something different. The Word of God has taught me that God does not have a "Chosen people" per DNA. But, that his "chosen people" were, are, and will always be people born of the spirit. That God is after the inward parts of a man and not his flesh. That how can there actually be an identifiable "chosen race" called the Jews or Jewish people as a race when such a race cannot be scientifically supported or proved. That even a person who is born Jewish, is only born Jewish because his parents were Jewish. But how far back can that person claim his heritage? when indeed and in fact, no person born Jewish can claim their heritage with any confidence back to Jacob or any of the twelve patriarchs.
until God can show me proof, that someone is indeed proven to be a descendent of the Patriarchs, I will not accept what everyone around me accepts so easily.
Now let me add this one note.
Yes I do believe that in this planet, there are people with traces of the Patriarchs bloodline in them ... but, only God knows who they are, not us.
J
Joe Domingo
Guest
turnorburn
Member
I can see it now Joe.. you get all of your ducks in a row, set up in such a way as to prove your point, it may take weeks it may take months it may take years. Then one day you succeed you finally have your DNA evidence. Then the other side finds the evidence has been contaminated.. :chokedup
Shades of O.J.
tob
Shades of O.J.
tob
jasoncran
Member
I prefer not to do this to the bible.
oh, non Jerusalem, non Jerusalem though that killest the prophets.. ye shall not see me again till ye say. if it was a bunch of gentiles then, or half bred(the jews until ad 70 used oral traditions and also had kept records of lineage) it would be known. thus that is a way of position. the early church was never called a jew, but was called at first the way, then Christians.
oh, non Jerusalem, non Jerusalem though that killest the prophets.. ye shall not see me again till ye say. if it was a bunch of gentiles then, or half bred(the jews until ad 70 used oral traditions and also had kept records of lineage) it would be known. thus that is a way of position. the early church was never called a jew, but was called at first the way, then Christians.
Well, in my thinking, yes. Could there have been two (or more?) primary reasons. One would be that they wanted to reach up and grab what is God's. They wanted to accomplish anything they proposed. Unsure what that means but it does sound like they were overstretching boundaries between what was given and was was not. The other is that they may have wanted to prepare against His next judgment by building a high tower to protect from the rising waters they supposed God would bring against their haughtiness. It doesn't sound like they were coming into line with the Lord even though at least part of them "heard" Him or that they 'heard' at least part of what He said. The bible doesn't really say, not straight out like that. The bible does speak about their 'unity'.
Seems like they knew in their heart of hearts what the Lord would do and they said, "... let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be dispersed..."
Then the Lord noticed what they were doing and commented, "Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language, and this is only the beginning of what they will do. And nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them."