[_ Old Earth _] Did Adam and Eve evolve from an ape-like ancestor?

[Barbarian]

Re: Why do many Christians insist that Adam was allegorical?

Which of these abilities did Tasmanians not possess?

They did not know how to make a fire. They did not make shelters, and did not fashion clothing, other than an occasional pelt draped over shoulders.

Gorillas fashion shelters, BTW.

 

[John]

Re: Why do many Christians insist that Adam was allegorical?

Gorillas fashion shelters, BTW.

And my dog can open doors, does this mean the future will have bipedal canines running amuck

 

[Barbarian]

Re: Why do many Christians insist that Adam was allegorical?

Pushing a door, and building a shelter are probably not equivalent activities. I hope, from this discussion, people got some sense of how difficult it is to make a good definition of what makes us uniquely human.

 

[Crying Rock]

Re: Why do many Christians insist that Adam was allegorical?

CR wrote:

Which of these abilities did Tasmanians not possess?

B wrote:

They did not know how to make a fire.

C quoted:

"...Tasmanian fireplaces show that until around 3,500 years ago, the aborigines did in fact eat scaled fish. It has even been worked out that such fish made up around 10% of the aborigines' total caloric intake then..."

“…The Tasmanians seem to have developed the firing to a fine art and it is said that some of Tasmania's various types of forest even today owe their origins and composition to controlled burning by Tasmanians over countless millennia…â€Â

“…Fires also needed to be carried not only when a group decided to set up camp somewhere but it was also used when hunting. The hunters customarily set fire to dry bush and grassland in order to flush out game animals (especially the fast kangaroo) but also to keep down undergrowth and reduce cover for the animals. Such regular firing over many millennia has been a major influence on the development of the Tasmanian landscape and ecosystem as it is still today…â€Â

“…It is possible that they used one or both of the two oldest methods known to mandkind: they rubbed together sticks of dry wood until the caught fire, or they struck two fire stones against each other to produce a spark. What is clear is that the Tasmanians took extremely good care of their fire so that a loss of fire would have been a very rare event. Loss of fire would have been highly embarrassing for the unlucky group which had the choice of asking their neighbours for fire, wait for lightining to strike or try to get a fire going by striking stones.

Making fire can be a difficult business even for people with a lot of practice, especially if it has to be done at night or in the rain. The Tasmanians avoided such problems when moving camp by carrying "firesticks": these were pieces of soft wood or twisted strands of fibres and bark with dry moss which were carried around smouldering. Such firesticks could be used to ignite a fire quickly anywhere.
Apart from starting fires for the conventional culinary and heating purposes, the Tasmanians are also said to have used smoke from fires for signalling over long distances. As James Bonwick (in his Daily Live and Origin of the Tasmanians, Sampson Low, Son, and Marston, London, 1870) reported that "according to the intelligence to be conveyed, the smoke was great or little, black or white…"

http://www.andaman.org/BOOK/chapter52/5 ... tional.htm

Remains of a Tasmanian fireplace uncovered by wind, showing remains of sea shell and animal bones
(photograph L.E. Luckman)

http://www.andaman.org/BOOK/chapter52/5 ... eplace.jpg

B wrote:

They did not make shelters, and did not fashion clothing, other than an occasional pelt draped over shoulders.

CR quoted:

“…Tasmanians had long used bone tools such as needles and awls. These tools, for no apparent reason, started to vanish, gradually, from the archaeological record until they had disappeared around 3,500 years ago (only one single bone tool has been dated later). Nothing comparable happened in Australia across the Bass Strait either 3,500 years ago or at any other time - bone tools were used there from the distant past to the present day. Did the Tasmanians adapt physically so well to their climate that they could afford to abandon sewn clothes? When the first European could observe them they customarily went naked (see Traditional Tasmanian/Clothes. As J. Mulvaney and J. Kamminga (Prehistory of Australia, 1999,Smithsonian Institution, Washington and London, p. 355) noted that the bone tools' "disappearance from the tool-kit is extraordinary because they are such a low-level innovation, are easy to make, and have such a wide range of uses…"

http://www.andaman.org/BOOK/chapter52/5 ... tional.htm

http://www.andaman.org/BOOK/chapter52/5 ... alTent.jpg

“…Burial arrangement on Maria island off the southeast coast of Tasmania in a drawing made in 1802 by a member of the Baudin Expedition. The drawing was made very early when Tasmanian society was still fully functional…â€Â

“…Visible in the drawing is a tent-like structure made of strips of bark erected over the ashes of the dead. Not visible on the drawing are lines and circles drawn on the inner surface of the tent. The ashes themselves were placed inside the hut in a bag and tied down in an elaborate arrangement of strings and stones. The meaning of this astonishingly elaborate arrangement is far from clear…â€Â

“…Hunter-gatherers are often on the move and so Tasmanian shelters, by necessity, had to be simple and easily erected. Movements over many centuries led along familiar tracks to familiar camp-sites where at least some "basic infrastructure" awaited the travelers at the other end of their move. It may be assumed that hearths and heavy stone equipment (such as ochre grinders) were left at the sites and not moved.

“…The simplest Tasmanian structures were mere windbreaks, open to the sky and rain and needing to hold together for just one or two nights. A little more substantial was the protection given by shelters constructed with the opening away from the direction of the wind by tying together overhanging branches of trees and if necessary supporting the branches with sticks. The fire was then lighted at the foot of the large tree-trunk, the most sheltered location. Still more substantial were huts made of were noted by early outside observers and these were erected when a group intended stayed longer than one night in a place. The simplicity of such shelters was not an inability to construct more elaborate structures (as the fairly elaborate funeral monuments decribed above prove)…â€Â

http://www.andaman.org/BOOK/chapter52/5 ... elter2.jpg

“…A much more sophisticated and presumably rain-proof "cupola hut" was also covered with stripped bark. he entrance of Tasmanian huts opened to the east since the prevailing winds on the island are from the west.
(painting made 1792 on Bruny island by Lt. Tobin of the Bligh expedition)…â€Â

 

[Barbarian]

Re: Why do many Christians insist that Adam was allegorical?

As noted Tasmanians did not make clothing (although their presumed ancestors did) and they did not know how to start a fire. They could and did maintain natural fire, precisely because they didn't know how to start them.

So the shelters, if they used them, were as sophisticated as those of gorillas. Again, this shows how difficult it is to define what is essentially human. BTW, it is quite easy to start a fire, if you know how. I can (and have) done it on a bet as a boy scout with nothing more than materials at hand in nature. (my scoutmaster was proficient at knapping and fire making)

Rubbing two sticks together is not a good bet. Flint can work if you have it. But a fire drill is the best bet. Takes a bit of time to build, but it's the best. And you have to know where to find dry tinder.

 

[Crying Rock]

Re: Why do many Christians insist that Adam was allegorical?

But a fire drill is the best bet. Takes a bit of time to build, but it's the best. And you have to know where to find dry tinder.

Agreed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8u-xKKBPK4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJ-jpy1hZIk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wz0B0IStzMc

 

[Crying Rock]

Re: Why do many Christians insist that Adam was allegorical?

and they did not know how to start a fire. They could and did maintain natural fire, precisely because they didn't know how to start them.

You're getting ahead of yourself. Fire starting materials are highly perishable and rarely recorded in archeological records. Tasmanians definitely controlled fire.

How did H.s.n. start their fires?

 

[Crying Rock]

Re: Why do many Christians insist that Adam was allegorical?

As noted Tasmanians did not make clothing (although their presumed ancestors did).

Who were Tasmanian's ancestors or descendants?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuegians

Both Tasmanians and Fuegians were apparently quite adapted to cold weather, as evidenced by their minimal clothing:

http://www.literature.org/authors/darwi ... er-10.html

 

[Barbarian]

Re: Why do many Christians insist that Adam was allegorical?

Who were Tasmanian's ancestors or descendants?

Presumed ancestors. The people who left Pleistocene remains in various sites in Tasmania. This is somewhat complicated by two issues:

1. During the last ice age, there was a land connection to Australia proper.
2. There were, according to the Tasmanians and to early explorers, two populations of Tasmanians. There were northern people and southern people, and they were apparently somewhat different physically.

Both Tasmanians and Fuegians were apparently quite adapted to cold weather, as evidenced by their minimal clothing:

How much of it was simple adaptation by exposure, and how much of it was by natural selection is problematic.

 

[Crying Rock]

Re: Why do many Christians insist that Adam was allegorical?

CR wrote:

Both Tasmanians and Fuegians were apparently quite adapted to cold weather, as evidenced by their minimal clothing:

B wrote:

How much of it was simple adaptation by exposure, and how much of it was by natural selection is problematic.

Indeed. The whole issue is puzzling.


Have you ever read Darwin's account of the Fuegians:

http://www.literature.org/authors/darwi ... er-10.html