Bible Study Did God predict in the OT the exact day Jesus was crucified?

[Khristeeanos]

24 "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.

25 "Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.

26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.

27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."


Some say that this passage gives us the date that Jesus would be crucified, but I can't remember exactly how.

Does anybody here have any additional information I can study?

Thank you and may God bless you all.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Here's one way. There were 69 weeks of (prophetic) years from the going forth (444BC) to rebuild, etc. until Messiah. 69X7=483 days. A day was used for each year. However, a prophetic year was simply 12 months of 30 days or 360 days. Hence, 483x360=173880 days from that decree.

To convert to solar years as we know years, divide that number by 365.2422 days to a solar year. 173880/365.2422 = 476.068 years.

Notice that is barely over a year and shows that the cricifixion was going to be about the same time of the year as the decree (Nissan).

To convert from BC to AD, the formula is BC+ #years +1 (BC is a negative number.) The extra "1" in the formula is because unlike an algebraic number line, there is no year "0".

so, if we add thusly:

(-444)+476+1= 33

33 AD.

 

[einstein]

daniel

There are many problems with this theory first promulgated by Sir Robert
Anderson in the 19th century. To begin, there are serious translational errors in the passages quoted. Furthermore, Israel never practiced or followed a "prophetic year" of 360 days. :D

 

[tim-from-pa]

The only thing I was aware of was the prophetic year of 360 days for the calculation. Actually, I (re)derived the calculations myself without knowing the source. That does not mean that this was not done beforehand, as I remember coming across a web site that did just as I did (but I forget his source). Oftentimes I "discover" mathematical formulas on my own not knowing they even exist (such as spherical trigonometry) and use them until someone later points it out to me that I've been using something already discovered, aka reinventing the wheel.

That being said, I do not see the need to actually practice a prophetic year---- that's just a unit of measure known to the prophets. In addition, the calculations came out suspiciously close to the actual crucifixion date as 33AD is more recently accepted rather than the traditional 30AD. I'm not sure where the new 33AD acceptance came from in Christendom; I believed in that date for a long time for other reasons and it seemed like the rest joined the bandwagon with me.

 

[einstein]

As I stated before, there are more significant problems wrt translation than the 360 day year. If you are interested in discussing this further,please post to the forum.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Interesting then how these numbers just so happened to work out with erroneous text, especially in light of the precise nature of mathematics.

So, you are proposing to our questioning friend that there's a translation problem and then offering nothing else in its place to satisfy the original query?

 

[einstein]

If you a)pick an artificial date unfounded from the original Hebrew as your starting point,
b) Invent an artifical year of 360 days,
c) mistranslate various parts of the passages in question, and
d) fail to appreciate the evolution of the concept of mashiach ben david in Jewish history---Then you can pretty much make any "mathematical" computation work out the way you want it to. :D

 

[tim-from-pa]

If you a)pick an artificial date unfounded from the original Hebrew as your starting point,
b) Invent an artifical year of 360 days,
c) mistranslate various parts of the passages in question, and
d) fail to appreciate the evolution of the concept of mashiach ben david in Jewish history---Then you can pretty much make any "mathematical" computation work out the way you want it to. :D

That's pretty many coincidences all jumbled together to make one final coincidence some out so nicely. OK--- how about we try similar calculations for our friend. Let's try starting at 606BC and see if we can come out to near to 30 to 33 AD using the same method? :-D

 

[einstein]

It doen't matter what kind of manipulation one uses. There is no reference to Jesus or to the Messiah in Daniel 9.

 

[tim-from-pa]

OK, yeah. Thanks. That's what I thought.

 

[wavy]

It doen't matter what kind of manipulation one uses. There is no reference to Jesus or to the Messiah in Daniel 9.

Daniel 9:25-26?

 

[einstein]

dan9

Please be specific and point out to me where Jesus or the Messiah is mentioned in this passage. :wink:

 

[yesha]

Here's an old artical that plays the numbers game. See if you can follow it.

ASTRONOMY, SECTION I

(7) The luni-solar cycles of Daniel.-- The seasons for which the sun and moon were appointed are mentioned in yet another connection. In the last vision given to Daniel the question was asked, "How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?" And it was answered, "It shall be for a time, times (dual), and a half; and when they have made an end of breaking in pieces the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished" <Dan 12:6-7>. From the parallel passage in <Dan 7:25>, where it is said of the fourth beast, "He shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand until a time (`iddan) and times (dual) and half a time," it is inferred that mo`edh in the first instance stands, like `iddan in the second, for a year; or the period is equivalent to half a week of years. The parallel passages in <Rev 11:2-3; 12:6,14; 13:5> have caused these years to be taken as conventional years of 360 days, each year being made up of 12 conventional months of 30 days, and on the year-day principle of interpretation, the entire period indicated would be one of 1,260 tropical years. This again is a luni-solar cycle, since 1,260 years contain 15,584 months correct to the nearest day. To the same prophet Daniel a further chronological vision was given, and a yet more perfect cycle indicated. In answer to the question, "How long shall be the vision concerning the continual burnt-offering, and the transgression that maketh desolate, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?" The answer was returned, "Unto two thousand and three hundred evenings and mornings; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed" <Dan 8:13-14>. Whatever may be the prophetic significance of the passage its astronomical significance is clear: 840,057 days are precisely 2,300 solar years, or 28,447 lunar months, or 30,487 anomalistic months, the anomalistic month being the period in which the moon travels from perigee to perigee. It is the most perfect lunisolar cycle known, and restores the two great lights exactly to their former relationship. This fullest "season" indicated by the sun and moon is given as that for the cleansing of the sanctuary, for the bringing in, as it were, of the full and perfect Jubilee.
(from International Standard Bible Encylopaedia, Electronic Database Copyright (C) 1996 by Biblesoft)

 

[Khristeeanos]

Re: dan9

Please be specific and point out to me where Jesus or the Messiah is mentioned in this passage. :wink:

Uh, it says the "Anointed One."

Is that not enough for you?

 

[wavy]

^And in addition to that, the definite article in verse 25 is present.

The moshiach/mashiyach.

 

[tim-from-pa]

I prefer the original Einstein. Too bad he's gone. :-D

 

[einstein]

dan 9

You have chosen one of the standard Christian prooftexts often used to prove the messiahship of Jesus and one of the most complicated set of passages in the Hebrew bible. I will preface my comments by stating that based on my reading it is unlikely a universally acceptable intrepretation is likely for everything in these passages. For example, from the Christian perspective there are a number of different opinions wrt the 70th week, the starting point of the countdown, etc. However, I will, over the next few posts attempt to provide another perspective based on a true translation of the Hebrew, and taking into account context from the Hebrew bible.Before proceeding to a more accurate translation there is something which you should realize from a contextual viewpoint. The Hebrew noun "mashiach" occurs 39 times in the Hebrew bible, and NOT ONCE does it refer to THE MESSIAH. The usage of the noun in that context is the product of the 1st century b.c.e. from data collected in the Dead Sea Scrolls. It was in this era that there was a change from the concept of a messianic era (the "end of days") to the expectation of a specific redeemer who would rule in the Messianic period. If you believe that Daniel is a product of the First Exile following the destruction of the First Temple, this fact alone would rule out any reference to THE Messiah.

Daniel 9:24:27 from the Hebrew

24:Seventy septets have been decreed upon your people and on your holy city to terminate transgression, to end sin, to wipe away iniquity, to bring everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies.

25: And you should know and understand that from the emergence of the word to restore and build Jerusalem until an anointed ruler shall be seven septets; and for sixty-two septets it will be rebuilt, street and moat but in troubled times.

26:And after the sixty-two septets,an anointed one will be cut off and will be no more; and the city and the sanctuary will be destroyed by people of the coming ruler and his end will come about like a flood; and until the end of the war, it will be cut off into desolation.

27: He will forge a strong covenant with the great ones for one septet, but for half of that septet he will abolish sacrifice and meal offerings and the mute abominations will be upon soaring heights until extermination as decreed will pour down upon the mute (abomination).

Contrary to what you stated in your last post there is no THE before the term "mashiach" in v. 25 in the Hebrew. You have simply accepted that translation from whatever Bible you are using. Among Christian bibles who translate the words in v. 25 as "The Annointed One" are the AMP,NIV,NLT,and WEB. Again from the Hebrew there is no definite article "h'a" before mashiach, and of course the use of captials with its obvious Christological intent is pure invention since there are no capital letters in Hebrew. More to come when time permits. :D

 

[wavy]

well, einstein, i haven't checked the validity of your claims yet (which i doubt are yours).

however, who is this "anointed ruler", may i ask?

 

[einstein]

dan 9

I never stated that these were my original claims. What I am stating represents a distillation of centuries of Jewish exegetical interpretation. However, I stand by the translation which is more accurate than the one previously provided.

Please allow me to finish this analysis before getting into the process of identification. :smt018

 

[wavy]

well, i am getting impatient. :evil:

:-D