tim-from-pa
Member
wavy said:
You're getting impatient? I'm still waiting for my calculations from several posts before yours. :-D :wink:
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
Bible Study Did God predict in the OT the exact day Jesus was crucified?
You're getting impatient? I'm still waiting for my calculations from several posts before yours. :-D :wink:
dan9
Aside from the problematic translation of "mashiach", there is another problem with the translation of the term "davar" in v2 which is usually translated as "commandment" or "decree". The common and proper term for "davar" is "word". Commandment is rendered as "mitzvah", a term used hundreds of times in the Hebrew bible. A royal decree might be termed a "da'at" or perhaps as "davar melech" ie word of the king, but that is not what is stated in v2.
In order to understand the significance of this term in context one must examine dan9:2. Daniel was confounded because he believed the time for the end of the exile was at hand and was worried because no end seemed in sight. It was for that reason he "contemplated the calculations, the number of the years that the WORD ("davar") of the Lord had come to Jeremiah the prophet, since the destruction of Jerusalem seventy years."
The davar is not any human decree. It is the word of God through his prophet Jeremiah that Daniel was concerned about. In this regard there were 2 prophecies. The first was issued at the time of the initial exile of Jehoiakim at Jer25:12 and the second was at the time of destruction of the 1st Temple at Jer29:10. "For so said the Lord: For the completion of seventy years of Babylon, I will remember you, and I will fulfill my good word (davar) toward you, to restore you to this place."
Daniel was about 18 years too early in his estimation wrt the final end of the exile hence he was contemplating the calculations.
Christian bibles compress the time frames in v25 so as to create a single time period of 69 weeks of years. However a proper rendering of the text demonstrates this is incorrect. There are 2 separate times frames and they are not combined. v26 properly translated reads "and after THE sixty-two septets...clearly indicating a separation of this period from the seven septets.
Hebrew, like English uses a base ten when referring to numbers. The number "69" is expressed as "9 and 60" or "60 and 9", never as "7 and 62".An example is Gen5:27 where the years of Methusaleh are given as 969 and the breakdown of the "69" is with base ten ie "60 and 9".
Additionally, in the Hebrew Masoretic text, there is a symbol used at the end of the phrase "seven septets" called the atnach which functions as a semi-colon. This indicates that the first anointed comes after seven septets, while the second anointed comes much later, about 1 septet before the destruction of Jerusalem.
I am going to end this post by quoting from the original 1611 edition of the King James Bible to demonstrate how wrt to the atnach the translators were properly translating the text:"Know therefore and vnderstand, that from the going foorth of the commandment to restore and build Iersalem, vnto the Messiah the Prince, shall be seuen weekes; and threescore and two weekes, the street shall be built againe, and the wall, euen in troublous times." It was not until 1885 that the text was revised compressing the 2 time frames. :wink:
Aside from the problematic translation of "mashiach", there is another problem with the translation of the term "davar" in v2 which is usually translated as "commandment" or "decree". The common and proper term for "davar" is "word". Commandment is rendered as "mitzvah", a term used hundreds of times in the Hebrew bible. A royal decree might be termed a "da'at" or perhaps as "davar melech" ie word of the king, but that is not what is stated in v2.
In order to understand the significance of this term in context one must examine dan9:2. Daniel was confounded because he believed the time for the end of the exile was at hand and was worried because no end seemed in sight. It was for that reason he "contemplated the calculations, the number of the years that the WORD ("davar") of the Lord had come to Jeremiah the prophet, since the destruction of Jerusalem seventy years."
The davar is not any human decree. It is the word of God through his prophet Jeremiah that Daniel was concerned about. In this regard there were 2 prophecies. The first was issued at the time of the initial exile of Jehoiakim at Jer25:12 and the second was at the time of destruction of the 1st Temple at Jer29:10. "For so said the Lord: For the completion of seventy years of Babylon, I will remember you, and I will fulfill my good word (davar) toward you, to restore you to this place."
Daniel was about 18 years too early in his estimation wrt the final end of the exile hence he was contemplating the calculations.
Christian bibles compress the time frames in v25 so as to create a single time period of 69 weeks of years. However a proper rendering of the text demonstrates this is incorrect. There are 2 separate times frames and they are not combined. v26 properly translated reads "and after THE sixty-two septets...clearly indicating a separation of this period from the seven septets.
Hebrew, like English uses a base ten when referring to numbers. The number "69" is expressed as "9 and 60" or "60 and 9", never as "7 and 62".An example is Gen5:27 where the years of Methusaleh are given as 969 and the breakdown of the "69" is with base ten ie "60 and 9".
Additionally, in the Hebrew Masoretic text, there is a symbol used at the end of the phrase "seven septets" called the atnach which functions as a semi-colon. This indicates that the first anointed comes after seven septets, while the second anointed comes much later, about 1 septet before the destruction of Jerusalem.
I am going to end this post by quoting from the original 1611 edition of the King James Bible to demonstrate how wrt to the atnach the translators were properly translating the text:"Know therefore and vnderstand, that from the going foorth of the commandment to restore and build Iersalem, vnto the Messiah the Prince, shall be seuen weekes; and threescore and two weekes, the street shall be built againe, and the wall, euen in troublous times." It was not until 1885 that the text was revised compressing the 2 time frames. :wink:
dan 9.
According to Jewish historical records the 1st temple was destroyed in 3338 and this accords with Jer 29:10. Seventy septets= 490 years, a conditional period for the nation to wipe out iniquity,etc. This period includes 70 years from the destruction of the 1st temple until the establishment of the 2nd temple in 3408, which would be allowed to exist for another 420 years if the nation would not fully repent. The nation failed and the 2nd temple was destroyed by Rome in 3828 which equates to 70 C.E. by secular dating.
From this perspective the first anointed is Cyrus. From the time that the "davar" was given to Jeremiah and the 1st temple destroyed until the 1st "anointed ruler" was to be seven septets. Cyrus gave permission to rebuild the temple about 49 years after the 1st destruction. Using secular chronology, the destruction was ca. 586 BCE and Cyrus' proclamation is dated ca. 538-537 BCE. Here's what the Hebrew bible states in this regard:
Isaiah 45:1- So said the Lord to his anointed one, to Cyrus...
Isaiah 44:28- Who says of Cyrus, "He is My Shepherd, and all My desire he shall fulfill"' and to say of Jerusalem,"It shall be rebuilt, and the Temple shall be founded."
2Chron 36:22- And in the first year of Cyrus, king of Persia at the completion of the word (davar) of the Lord in the mouth of Jeremiah, the Lord aroused the spirit of Cyrus, the king of Persia and he issued a proclamation, throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying...
This proclamation is cited in Josephus as well. To be continued. :D
According to Jewish historical records the 1st temple was destroyed in 3338 and this accords with Jer 29:10. Seventy septets= 490 years, a conditional period for the nation to wipe out iniquity,etc. This period includes 70 years from the destruction of the 1st temple until the establishment of the 2nd temple in 3408, which would be allowed to exist for another 420 years if the nation would not fully repent. The nation failed and the 2nd temple was destroyed by Rome in 3828 which equates to 70 C.E. by secular dating.
From this perspective the first anointed is Cyrus. From the time that the "davar" was given to Jeremiah and the 1st temple destroyed until the 1st "anointed ruler" was to be seven septets. Cyrus gave permission to rebuild the temple about 49 years after the 1st destruction. Using secular chronology, the destruction was ca. 586 BCE and Cyrus' proclamation is dated ca. 538-537 BCE. Here's what the Hebrew bible states in this regard:
Isaiah 45:1- So said the Lord to his anointed one, to Cyrus...
Isaiah 44:28- Who says of Cyrus, "He is My Shepherd, and all My desire he shall fulfill"' and to say of Jerusalem,"It shall be rebuilt, and the Temple shall be founded."
2Chron 36:22- And in the first year of Cyrus, king of Persia at the completion of the word (davar) of the Lord in the mouth of Jeremiah, the Lord aroused the spirit of Cyrus, the king of Persia and he issued a proclamation, throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying...
This proclamation is cited in Josephus as well. To be continued. :D
Y
yesha
Guest
I thought I'd add another solution to the mix.
From expositors commentary.
Start with the decree issued to Ezra in the seventh year of Artaxerxes I (457 bc)
Count off 49 years to rebuild, and then 434 years and come out to ad 26, which is 27. Then a half gives us ad 30.
From expositors commentary.
Start with the decree issued to Ezra in the seventh year of Artaxerxes I (457 bc)
Count off 49 years to rebuild, and then 434 years and come out to ad 26, which is 27. Then a half gives us ad 30.