Did Mary consent to our salvation?

[Hopeful 2]

donadams is saying that we must remain saved until our death.
We can decide, at any moment, to stop worshipping and serving God.
We can walk away from Jesus.

You were able to get that from his post ?
Your comment is correct, so doesn't that mean that one, real repentance from sin, should be sufficient unto salvation?
Frequent repentances indicate frequent walking away from God.

If you don't agree, I'll be happy to provide a few verses.

I do agree.
Do you agree that not everyone walks away from God ?

 

[electedbyHim]

The rosary is meditation on the life of Jesus.
It was used in ancient times because persons were illiterate in Europe and it was a good way to teach about Jesus' life.
It may not even be necessary anymore, but certainly prayer can't harm us in any way.

It also honors Mary as the Mother of Jesus.
The first part of the Hail Mary is entirely biblical.
The second part is a bit biblical and the rest is a prayer at our death.

I'd have to say that I'm not at all sure that saints can hear our prayers - but this is what Catholics teach.
I find that every denomination teaches something or other that I don't care for, but it's their right to do so.

The reason for this is that I don't believe that saints are omnipresent.

As for Mary, I refrain from any comment because I do believe she holds a special place that we Protestants are just not able to accept for one reason or another.

I mean, we care for Paul more or John more - and she was the MOTHER of Jesus.
Let's at least give her the same consideration as we give to Paul and John and others that wrote in God's word.

Raised RC I remember doing the rosary thing. Never did understand it.

I also remeber having to kneel and pray to a statue of Mary and other saints, also lighting votive/vigil candles. I think that is what they were called.

A lot of reason Mary is not emphasized as much as the Disciples and Apostles, is that she is only mention a few times in the Bible. This should tell us something.

For me, it has always been wrong to worship a human woman or man for that matter.

I would like to add that in my remebering as a child, it was mostly woman who made a big deal out of Mary, I never remeber the men doing this.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[donadams]

The church that is of Gods will never accommodate sinning.

Never said it did nor does it teach sin

 

[donadams]

Care to rephrase that ?
It was no comprehendible.

You and I and nobody in this life is saved!

We are abiding in Christ enduring all things till the end! Matt 24:13

 

[Hopeful 2]

Never said it did nor does it teach sin

Good.

 

[Hopeful 2]

You and I and nobody in this life is saved!

We are abiding in Christ enduring all things till the end! Matt 24:13

I agree.
I prefer the term "converted", when discussing those awaiting the end.

 

[GodsGrace]

Raised RC I remember doing the rosary thing. Never did understand it.

It's still very much used to this day.
It was used back in the middle ages because it helped persons to understand the story of Jesus.
It's used today because any priest would tell you that it's a very powerful prayer.
Maybe just for the simple reason that it retells the story of Jesus and there's so much praying about Him.
Just a few sentences are actually about Mary.

I also remeber having to kneel and pray to a statue of Mary and other saints, also lighting votive/vigil candles. I think that is what they were called.

This is not encouraged although, yes, Mary is prayed to as an intercessor.
I don't believe in praying to saints for the reason that I don't believe they're omnipresent.
Not too sure about Mary - the early church fathers were very thoughtful of her.

Candles. Yeah. Maybe it makes people feel like they're doing something positive.
Maybe it makes some extra money for the church. Seems like the older folk like this.
I went to Lourdes 2 years ago. They have a whole place just specifically for lighting candles.
I really don't know too much about this...

A lot of reason Mary is not emphasized as much as the Disciples and Apostles, is that she is only mention a few times in the Bible. This should tell us something.

Right. But she's mentioned a lot by those that came directly after Jesus.
I'll post the following for those reading along that may be interested.
I do believe Mary needs to be venerated.
Venerated, not worshipped, which is only for God.

What the Early Church Believed: Mary is the Mother of God

The writings of the early Church Fathers confirm that because Mary is the earthly mother of Jesus—and Jesus is God—then Mary is the mother of God.

www.catholic.com

For me, it has always been wrong to worship a human woman or man for that matter.

Agreed. We worship only God.

I would like to add that in my remebering as a child, it was mostly woman who made a big deal out of Mary, I never remeber the men doing this.

Grace and peace to you.

I've noticed this too.
Maybe women feel they're more understood by her.
I think, though, that it's still the older generation that has this feeling.
When I'm involved with priests, I hear talk of Jesus.

 

[GodsGrace]

Agreed.

If the doctrines are not correct, how can they be "of God" ?
God isn't using false doctrines for His glory.

If you believe the above, it means that you think doctrine saves us.
It means almost all of humanity is going straight to hell because we can't seem to agree on some basic concepts.

It's not what doctrine you believe that saves you,
it's Jesus that saves you and upon Whom you should depend for your salvation.

You could believe a false doctrine and still be saved.
So merciful is our Lord.

You are mistaken.
Is the church of latter day saints, (mormons) "of God" ?
Is the church of Jehovah's witnesses "of God" ?

Only the ones not rooted in God make doctrinal mistakes.
How can a "good tree" bring forth evil fruit ?

Which evil fruit is the Mormon church bringing forward?
I think they believe all sorts of odd stuff, but you nor I can state that they aren't saved.
Ditto for JWs.
I don't agree with either on practically everything,
but they believe in God and happen to be living a life worthy of our Savior's love.

 

[GodsGrace]

You were able to get that from his post ?
Your comment is correct, so doesn't that mean that one, real repentance from sin, should be sufficient unto salvation?
Frequent repentances indicate frequent walking away from God.

There shouldn't be frequent repentance.
I've read some member's here state that they loved God, then walked away for one reason or another,
and then at some point, decided to return to God.

I could understand how this could happen once, but if it happens continually then there's something wrong.
I think we could agree on this if I've understood your point.

I do agree.
Do you agree that not everyone walks away from God ?

Of course most persons don't walk away from God !
I would say it's a rather rare case, but it could happen because the NT makes not of this.

 

[Simons]

Actually, Luke 1:28 states a greeting to Mary, which is more than a greeting but I can't remember why right now.

well it might be because you have heard someone such as donadams say that it is a greeting used only for royalty. That is simply wrong. The word in question is Chairo and:

Chairo was used in greetings (welcome, good day, hail to you, I am glad to see you) in the imperative mood implying a wish for well being or happiness to the recipient (Mt 26:49). Chairo is used in the introduction to a letter (Ac 15:23; 23:26; James 1:1). Chairo is translated "Hail!" several times in the Gospels (Mt 26:49, 27:29, Mk 15:18, Lk 1:27)…

….See HAIL = "to rejoice," is used in the imperative mood, (a) as a salutation, only in the Gospels; in this respect it is rendered simply "hail," in mockery of Christ, Matthew 26:49 ; 27:29 ; Mark 15:18 ; John 19:3 ; (b) as a greeting, by the angel Gabriel to Mary, Luke 1:28 , and, in the plural, by the Lord to the disciples after His resurrection, Matthew 28:9 .​

From: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=34765

Then it says she is the favored one, or favored one. This from the NASB and other bibles I have including a Catholic one which is the same, BTW, except it has more books in it. 7 more.

The word in greek that you posted above indicates that when the angel visited Mary she was already full of grace because she was to be the the mother of Jesus and so had already been graced,,,,she was filled with divine life.

no, it indicates that she was favored…”full of grace” was a translation error introduced by Jerome (which error was then built upon by the Catholic Church)

Here's my understanding,

Mary must be a specially favored one to be chosen to be the mother of Jesus.

agreed

We're all favored by God if we're children of God,,,,but is this greeting given to anyone else in the NT. I don't believe so.

Matt 28:9 (in the plural because more than one person was being greeted by Jesus)….and of course it was used in a negative fashion to mock Jesus as the King of the Jews. Note: it definitely doesn’t need to be seen as giving a special status to whomever it is directed to.

Mary has an unparalleled role and why we Protestants insist on downplaying it has always been a mystery to me.

I don’t know of any Protestant who downplays Mary's role. Because it is specifically stated in scripture, every Protestant I know recognizes that Mary was specifically chosen to conceive and birth Jesus, to raise Jesus (with Joseph) and to occasionally appear in the gospels to interact with Jesus. Nobody else had the honor of being chosen by God to do all those things. I don't know of any Protestant who would suggest that he or she is as righteous as Mary was. On the other hand, let me stress that denying Mary’s perpetual virginity, her sinlessness, her over-the-top non-scriptural titles, her bodily assumption or any other Catholic claim (that elevates her beyond the status that she is granted in scripture) is not downplaying Mary's role… it is being true to God's revelation.

With respect to the things that she did do, I think it would be good to have open and honest discussions about those things. For example, with respect to conceiving and giving birth to Jesus, that is an incredible and unique honor, but it should be also noted that conceiving and giving birth is something that most women do and in fact something that Mary repeatedly did for Joseph (if one takes the plain and ordinary meaning of scripture). Conceiving and giving birth is a very common achievement…. the conception and birth is only seen as an extraordinary event because the Son of God was the one conceived and born. So then, should we rate Mary’s obedience (in conception and birth) as greater than Stephen’s obedience (in his martyrdom)? Since there is no unit of measurement for obedience, I am not inclined to rate one higher than the other…both were extraordinary and should be followed as an example.

 

[Hopeful 2]

If you believe the above, it means that you think doctrine saves us.

Of course it does.
Can something from the devil save us ?
No, but the doctrines that are from God can save us.

It means almost all of humanity is going straight to hell because we can't seem to agree on some basic concepts.

Don't you mean doctrines ?

It's not what doctrine you believe that saves you,
it's Jesus that saves you and upon Whom you should depend for your salvation.

You are splitting hairs.
Many doctrine came straight from Jesus.
For instance, the two Laws of Christ...Love God with all your heart, mind, and soul; and love your neighbor as you love yourself.
And water baptism in His name. (Matt 28:19)
To ignore or disobey any one of them will damn folks.

You could believe a false doctrine and still be saved.

You are mistaken.
Folks with the gift of the Holy Ghost don't believe false doctrines.

So merciful is our Lord.

He is no fool.
The instructions and the instructors are given to believers by God so they don't go astray.

Which evil fruit is the Mormon church bringing forward?

They believe that a man can serve two masters.

I think they believe all sorts of odd stuff, but you nor I can state that they aren't saved.
Ditto for JWs.
I don't agree with either on practically everything,
but they believe in God and happen to be living a life worthy of our Savior's love.

The devils beleive in God.
Belief alone won't save anyone.

 

[Hopeful 2]

There shouldn't be frequent repentance.
I've read some member's here state that they loved God, then walked away for one reason or another,
and then at some point, decided to return to God.

It was at there "return" that the real repentance occurred.
If they sin again, their real repentance will be after that...ect., etc., etc.

I could understand how this could happen once, but if it happens continually then there's something wrong.
I think we could agree on this if I've understood your point.

There was "something wrong" if it happened even once.

Of course most persons don't walk away from God !
I would say it's a rather rare case, but it could happen because the NT makes note of this.

I wish you were right.

 

[Ricky]

do you see the word "queen" anywhere in that verse? How about any title being applied to the woman? no, nope and it isn't even clear that the woman represents Mary.....so, is that as close as you can get to God expressly giving Mary a title (in scripture)?

Jesus sits on the throne of his father David. Jesus is king of the kingdom. In the OT scriptures there are numerous references to the mother of the king being called the queen mother.

Mary is the mother of Jesus so it is scriptural to give Mary that same title. Mary is the queen of the kingdom. She is the queen mother.

 

[KV-44-v1]

Mary is the queen of the kingdom. She is the queen mother.

No evidence, only belief. Did you know that the dead know nothing???
Eccl. 9:5

 

[KV-44-v1]

well it might be because you have heard someone such as donadams say that it is a greeting used only for royalty. That is simply wrong. The word in question is Chairo and:

Chairo was used in greetings (welcome, good day, hail to you, I am glad to see you) in the imperative mood implying a wish for well being or happiness to the recipient (Mt 26:49). Chairo is used in the introduction to a letter (Ac 15:23; 23:26; James 1:1). Chairo is translated "Hail!" several times in the Gospels (Mt 26:49, 27:29, Mk 15:18, Lk 1:27)…​

​

….See HAIL = "to rejoice," is used in the imperative mood, (a) as a salutation, only in the Gospels; in this respect it is rendered simply "hail," in mockery of Christ, Matthew 26:49 ; 27:29 ; Mark 15:18 ; John 19:3 ; (b) as a greeting, by the angel Gabriel to Mary, Luke 1:28 , and, in the plural, by the Lord to the disciples after His resurrection, Matthew 28:9 .​

From: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=34765

no, it indicates that she was favored…”full of grace” was a translation error introduced by Jerome (which error was then built upon by the Catholic Church)

agreed

Matt 28:9 (in the plural because more than one person was being greeted by Jesus)….and of course it was used in a negative fashion to mock Jesus as the King of the Jews. Note: it definitely doesn’t need to be seen as giving a special status to whomever it is directed to.

I don’t know of any Protestant who downplays Mary's role. Because it is specifically stated in scripture, every Protestant I know recognizes that Mary was specifically chosen to conceive and birth Jesus, to raise Jesus (with Joseph) and to occasionally appear in the gospels to interact with Jesus. Nobody else had the honor of being chosen by God to do all those things. I don't know of any Protestant who would suggest that he or she is as righteous as Mary was. On the other hand, let me stress that denying Mary’s perpetual virginity, her sinlessness, her over-the-top non-scriptural titles, her bodily assumption or any other Catholic claim (that elevates her beyond the status that she is granted in scripture) is not downplaying Mary's role… it is being true to God's revelation.

With respect to the things that she did do, I think it would be good to have open and honest discussions about those things. For example, with respect to conceiving and giving birth to Jesus, that is an incredible and unique honor, but it should be also noted that conceiving and giving birth is something that most women do and in fact something that Mary repeatedly did for Joseph (if one takes the plain and ordinary meaning of scripture). Conceiving and giving birth is a very common achievement…. the conception and birth is only seen as an extraordinary event because the Son of God was the one conceived and born. So then, should we rate Mary’s obedience (in conception and birth) as greater than Stephen’s obedience (in his martyrdom)? Since there is no unit of measurement for obedience, I am not inclined to rate one higher than the other…both were extraordinary and should be followed as an example.

Those who accuse Bible believers of downplaying Mary's role (even tho we dont!) seem to already exaggerate her blessing. Catch 22.

 

[Randy]

Did Mary consent to our salvation? Lk 1:28-38

Is Mary the mother our salvation? Lk 2:30

I'm not sure if her understanding at that very moment was the Son would redeem Israel, rule over Israel or redeem us from Sin. I doubt she understood that Son at that consent/moment as the one who takes away the sin of the whole world generation after generation.
What She stated to the angel was may your words be fulfilled.
You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”
How?
The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God

 

[donadams]

I'm not sure if her understanding at that very moment was the Son would redeem Israel, rule over Israel or redeem us from Sin. I doubt she understood that Son at that consent/moment as the one who takes away the sin of the whole world generation after generation.
What She stated to the angel was may your words be fulfilled.
You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”
How?
The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God

Lk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus

Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.


Thks

 

[Randy]

Lk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus

Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.


Thks

Wasn't Matt 1:21 spoken to Joseph not Mary so He wouldn't divorce her as he believed at that point in time she had been unfaithful? Mary had already conceived at that point and was pregnant. She stated to what was spoken of her as Gods will let those words be fulfilled. Nothing was stated at that consent about Jesus saving people from their sins. I don't see how she would have that understanding "consent to our salvation at that consent". She consented to be the Mother of the Lord and Son of God as God stated to her. By the time she gave birth from dialogue with Joseph she might very well had that depth of understanding. It's clear she considered herself a humble servant of the Lord and no matter what God asked of her she would have consented.

 

[donadams]

Wasn't Matt 1:21 spoken to Joseph not Mary so He wouldn't divorce her as he believed at that point in time she had been unfaithful? Mary had already conceived at that point and was pregnant. She stated to what was spoken of her as Gods will let those words be fulfilled. Nothing was stated at that consent about Jesus saving people from their sins. I don't see how she would have that understanding "consent to our salvation at that consent". She consented to be the Mother of the Lord and Son of God as God stated to her. By the time she gave birth from dialogue with Joseph she might very well had that depth of understanding. It's clear she considered herself a humble servant of the Lord and no matter what God asked of her she would have consented.

You right!

But I think she knew the name Jesus means salvation

 

[Randy]

You right!

But I think she knew the name Jesus means salvation

Maybe she put that together, but I believe she would have consented to anything God asked her to do regardless. She considered herself the Lord's servant.