Differing opinions regarding salvation, Mary, and the word "save. Are there?

[Scotth1960]

No, you lie. Your institution slanders the word of God.

When the Catholic church rose up in control, they depended on the people's illiteracy, BECAUSE THEY WERE ILLITERATE!

I have already shown your the clear scripture that proves that Mary and Joseph had sexual intercourse, and the passage that shows that Jesus had siblings. Even James Himself states that he is Jesus' brother.

I am far from silent, mister.

You have been given the truth many times, yet you run right back to kneel before your institution.

Dear Alabaster, Now you are losing self-control and are acting angrily. Your opinion does not agree with the early Church. You seem to think Christians simply ignore what has gone on in the past. They come to the Bible by themselves, and they tell the Bible what it means. They read the contents of their own minds, and make that the private interpretation which they take upon themselves as their own authority to read the Bible "for themselves". But 2 Peter 3 warns that no prophecy, of Scripture is of any private interpretation. Saying that Mary is not ever-virgin is just another private interpretation. In Erie Scott Harrington
Besides, I don't kneel. You are slandering me again. You have been given the truth by the historic Church, whose writings from Fr. Gillquist I quoted in a few places. He is an honest man, a kind and gentle man, and an Orthodox Christian. The C&MA wasn't around 2000 years ago. The Orthodox Church was. You have the right Saviour, Jesus Christ. We all do. It's just a matter of which Church tradition is closest to the original and true meaning of the whole NT. Is it "ever virginity" isn't normal? Then you slander St. John, St. Paul, St. Andrew, and all the other NT writers who did not marry.

 

[Alabaster]

Dear Alabaster, Now you are losing self-control and are acting angrily.

Your accusation was personal and a lie. Why shouldn't I be angry? Stop lying and things will improve, won't they?

Your opinion does not agree with the early Church.

Yes it does.

You seem to think Christians simply ignore what has gone on in the past. They come to the Bible by themselves, and they tell the Bible what it means. They read the contents of their own minds, and make that the private interpretation which they take upon themselves as their own authority to read the Bible "for themselves". But 2 Peter 3 warns that no prophecy, of Scripture is of any private interpretation. Saying that Mary is not ever-virgin is just another private interpretation.

False. Holy Spirit is the one who opens our minds to the truth. Those who believe that Mary was ever-virgin are believing what others tell them, and haven't bothered to really know the word. Holy Spirit teaches otherwise.

Besides, I don't kneel. You are slandering me again.

Figuratively, you do.

You have been given the truth by the historic Church,

Yes we all have, through Scripture.

You have the right Saviour, Jesus Christ. We all do.

Some don't, if their Jesus is different than the one in the Bible.

It's just a matter of which Church tradition is closest to the original and true meaning of the whole NT. Is it "ever virginity" isn't normal? Then you slander St. John, St. Paul, St. Andrew, and all the other NT writers who did not marry.

Tradition has nothing to do with truth.

 

[Scotth1960]

No, you lie. Your institution slanders the word of God.

When the Catholic church rose up in control, they depended on the people's illiteracy, BECAUSE THEY WERE ILLITERATE!

I have already shown your the clear scripture that proves that Mary and Joseph had sexual intercourse, and the passage that shows that Jesus had siblings. Even James Himself states that he is Jesus' brother.

I am far from silent, mister.

You have been given the truth many times, yet you run right back to kneel before your institution.

Dear Alabaster, I am not lying what I have said. The Spirit "proceeds from the Father". Do you say otherwise? And also, how do you know the people were illiterate? WERE YOU THERE? Your arrogance is coming through clearly. We need to rely on humble witnesses, and the Church Fathers certainly were humble men. Also, true teaching comes through men, not through women. Mary's role as woman was as the THEOTOKOS and she merely said, "Whatever He tells you to do, do it". That is the extent of Mary's teaching to the Church. She teaches by holy example, not by many words only. For your many words against "weak old men" and "an institution", well, the Church, the Catholic Church, is not an institution. It is the Body of Christ. The identity of the Catholic Church is the controversy here. Does it exist in the East, without the Filioque? The historic, honest answer is YES. The ERROR OF CHARLEMAGNE is ROMAN CATHOLICISM'S CAPITULATION TO THE FRANKS, A LONG-DEAD GERMANIC TRIBE. Charlemagne's heresy continues TODAY in the "CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH', WHICH STATES A ALREADY ANATHEMATIZED FILIOQUE HEREESY. In Erie PA Scott Harrington

PS Alabaster dear friend, you, too, kneel before your private Protestant traditions and your C&MA tradition, if you are getting your opinions from "The Christian and Missionary Alliance" denomination. Did A.B. Simpson, the founder of that sect, believe Mary had other children? Are you following what a man says, or what the historic Church says about Ezekiel 44:1-2?

 

[whitney]

Dear Alabaster, Now you are losing self-control and are acting angrily. Your opinion does not agree with the early Church. You seem to think Christians simply ignore what has gone on in the past. They come to the Bible by themselves, and they tell the Bible what it means. They read the contents of their own minds, and make that the private interpretation which they take upon themselves as their own authority to read the Bible "for themselves". But 2 Peter 3 warns that no prophecy, of Scripture is of any private interpretation. Saying that Mary is not ever-virgin is just another private interpretation. In Erie Scott Harrington
Besides, I don't kneel. You are slandering me again. You have been given the truth by the historic Church, whose writings from Fr. Gillquist I quoted in a few places. He is an honest man, a kind and gentle man, and an Orthodox Christian. The C&MA wasn't around 2000 years ago. The Orthodox Church was. You have the right Saviour, Jesus Christ. We all do. It's just a matter of which Church tradition is closest to the original and true meaning of the whole NT. Is it "ever virginity" isn't normal? Then you slander St. John, St. Paul, St. Andrew, and all the other NT writers who did not marry.

The historic church is the church Jesus set up in His name, the Catholic church is a secterian religious organization, comprised of false doctrine which are forbidden per the Word of God. This said false religion is permeated with idolatry, rote prayer, and apostasy!

 

[Alabaster]

Dear Alabaster, I am not lying what I have said. The Spirit "proceeds from the Father". Do you say otherwise?

No.

And also, how do you know the people were illiterate? WERE YOU THERE?

They were illiterate people.

Your arrogance is coming through clearly.

Really? LOL! There is a boatload of arrogance in everything I read with your name on it.

We need to rely on humble witnesses, and the Church Fathers certainly were humble men.

Were you there?

Also, true teaching comes through men, not through women.

That is wrong.

Mary's role as woman was as the THEOTOKOS and she merely said, "Whatever He tells you to do, do it". That is the extent of Mary's teaching to the Church.

LOL!

She teaches by holy example, not by many words only.

There is nothing recorded about her example except in her submitting to God's will that she produce the Messiah in her body, and raise her son until he is emancipated into His ministry.

For your many words against "weak old men" and "an institution", well, the Church, the Catholic Church, is not an institution. It is the Body of Christ.

NO IT IS NOT. There are some member of that institution who are of the body of Christ by virtue of their salvation and personal relationship with Jesus Christ, but no affiliation with any church saves anyone.

PS Alabaster dear friend, you, too, kneel before your private Protestant traditions and your C&MA tradition, if you are getting your opinions from "The Christian and Missionary Alliance" denomination. Did A.B. Simpson, the founder of that sect, believe Mary had other children? Are you following what a man says, or what the historic Church says about Ezekiel 44:1-2?

False. My opinions are from the word of God, and no denomination. I invite you to allow the Scriptures to lead you also.

 

[Scotth1960]

Tradition has nothing to do with truth.

Alabaster, Do you not read 2 Thessalonians 2:15 about apostolic traditions? That mentions tradition. There is two meanings of tradition in the NT. Traditions of men, which Jesus warned against in the 4 Gospels. And tradition of God, which St. Paul and the other Apostles all taught. Tradition is good when it comes from God. No matter how much you make personal attacks, it will not change the truth. I have stated the truth. And the truth is no lie. You should read St. Paul more closely, after all is said and done. To know what St. Paul means, we need the teachers of the historic Church. These do not follow Luther, Calvin, A.B. Simpson of the C&MA etc. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[Alabaster]

Alabaster, Do you not read 2 Thessalonians 2:15 about apostolic traditions? That mentions tradition. There is two meanings of tradition in the NT. Traditions of men, which Jesus warned against in the 4 Gospels. And tradition of God, which St. Paul and the other Apostles all taught. Tradition is good when it comes from God. No matter how much you make personal attacks, it will not change the truth. I have stated the truth. And the truth is no lie. You should read St. Paul more closely, after all is said and done. To know what St. Paul means, we need the teachers of the historic Church. These do not follow Luther, Calvin, A.B. Simpson of the C&MA etc. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

Traditions of men is what you embrace. Christians need to reject it if they want freedom in Christ.

 

[whitney]

Traditions of men is what you embrace. Christians need to reject it if they want freedom in Christ.

And God KNEW Catholics would rise up and do just that, so He warned us:

Mark 7: 6 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
“‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’[a]
8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.†9 And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe[b] your own traditions!

 

[Scotth1960]

Traditions of men is what you embrace. Christians need to reject it if they want freedom in Christ.

Dear Alabaster, What tradition do I embrace that comes from men, and not from God. You haven't shown your tradition does not come from men. You are begging the question. You claim to know where the early Church taught what you teach. Could you show us one apostolic father who taught against infant baptism and against Mary's ever-virginity? If your teaching is the same as that of the NT Church, it should be apparent from many, many writings from all the Church Fathers. There were several church fathers. Your teaching is modern.
I have freedom in Christ. You assume false premises.
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[Alabaster]

And God KNEW Catholics would rise up and do just that, so He warned us:

Mark 7: 6 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
“‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’[a]
8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.†9 And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe[b] your own traditions!

Wow! I forgot about that passage! Good one!

 

[whitney]

Dear Alabaster, What tradition do I embrace that comes from men, and not from God. You haven't shown your tradition does not come from men. You are begging the question. You claim to know where the early Church taught what you teach. Could you show us one apostolic father who taught against infant baptism and against Mary's ever-virginity? If your teaching is the same as that of the NT Church, it should be apparent from many, many writings from all the Church Fathers. There were several church fathers. Your teaching is modern.
I have freedom in Christ. You assume false premises.
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

Here are but a few traditions they follow and why their traditions are false doctrine:

Only certain Christians are saints - WRONG -
"To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours" 1 Corinthians 1:2

Repetive praying with rosary beads - FORBIDDEN - (and was borrowed from the pagans)
"And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. Matthew 6:7

Calling a spiritual leader their Father - FORBIDDEN -
"Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. Matthew 23:9

Confessions to a Priest (who is their Father) - WRONG
1 Timothy 2:5For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

Idolizing Mary, the Pope and "Saints" - FORBIDDEN

3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me. 4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

A very harsh warning for those following their own traditions:

 

[Alabaster]

Dear Alabaster, What tradition do I embrace that comes from men, and not from God. You haven't shown your tradition does not come from men. You are begging the question. You claim to know where the early Church taught what you teach. Could you show us one apostolic father who taught against infant baptism and against Mary's ever-virginity? If your teaching is the same as that of the NT Church, it should be apparent from many, many writings from all the Church Fathers. There were several church fathers. Your teaching is modern.
I have freedom in Christ. You assume false premises.
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

I do not maintain tradition. It is not important. What is important is the Word of God and what He tells me there.


There is no apostle ever who has taught anything like what your institution has concocted about Mary as virgin, as a Co-Redemptrix, as Translated/Ascended; about Purgatory; about infant baptism; about beatification of saints; about veneration of relics, etc. etc. etc.

Freedom in Christ is had when one relieves oneself of such encumbrances of error.

 

[Scotth1960]

I do not maintain tradition. It is not important. What is important is the Word of God and what He tells me there.


There is no apostle ever who has taught anything like what your institution has concocted about Mary as virgin, as a Co-Redemptrix, as Translated/Ascended; about Purgatory; about infant baptism; about beatification of saints; about veneration of relics, etc. etc. etc.

Freedom in Christ is had when one relieves oneself of such encumbrances of error.

Alabaster, You confuse Orthodoxy with Catholicism. Mary is ever-virgin. True. Mary is not Co-Redemptrix. There is only one Lord and Redeemer, Jesus Christ. Mary was falling asleep in the Lord, her dormition, and was assumed bodily into heaven. Purgatory does not exist, and there is no second place of punishment. There is a period of transition after death of the departed (dead) in Christ, and these are prayed for by the Church. But no purgatory. Saints are beatified by God the Holy Spirit, and recognized in the Church. Relics are venerated and honored as gifts of God. Nothing is worshipped and adored but God the All-Holy Trinity. The Ever-Virgin and all the Saints are venerated, but not worshipped.
Freedom in Christ is when one is born again in Christ (John 3:3,5,16) and sanctified by God by and in the sacraments of the Church. In Erie PA Scott Harrington

 

[Eventide]

Why would so many exalt Mary when she's really not a whole lot different than any other believer in the NT.. ?

Mary believed the message from above and Christ was conceived in her by the power of the Holy Spirit...

A person believes the message from above and Christ is conceived in them by the power of the Holy Spirit...

So what makes Mary any different ?

Is she different because she carried Jesus in her earthen vessel in a physical way rather than in a spiritual way ?

All true Christians have Christ in them, so why is Mary exalted ?

 

[francisdesales]

Here are but a few traditions they follow and why their traditions are false doctrine:

Ah, apparently, I must address these stock issues yet again. Amazing how often, considering that Catholic issues are not supposed to be spoken of here at the Apologetics site.

Only certain Christians are saints - WRONG -
"To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours" 1 Corinthians 1:2

I fail to see this as a problem. We are all saints in one manner of speaking. But the term has another meaning, as well. It refers to those canonized saints in heaven, those the Church recognizes are already with God in heaven and held up as examples for those still working out their salvation here on earth.

Repetive praying with rosary beads - FORBIDDEN - (and was borrowed from the pagans)
"And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. Matthew 6:7

The point of Jesus' warning here is that a person is not to speak a formula over and over thinking that they can control God if they say something so many times. Sort of like a faith-healer who must get someone to repeat "yes I believe" 127 times before he is healed. Only then, can it happen. Formulas cannot conjure up a certain response from God. The rosary is a meditative prayer, the beads merely mark time while we reflect.

Calling a spiritual leader their Father - FORBIDDEN -
"Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. Matthew 23:9

apparently, Paul or John didn't get the memo, if we are to interpret that literally...

Confessions to a Priest (who is their Father) - WRONG
1 Timothy 2:5For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

Being the "one mediator" does not mean that the priest cannot participate in the priestly role of forgiving sins. God forgives sins through the visible priest.

Idolizing Mary, the Pope and "Saints" - FORBIDDEN

I agree. We don't, so what's the point?

A very harsh warning for those following their own traditions:

I have a strong feeling that you do not know what Jesus was addressing in Mark 7 when He was speaking about "traditions of men".


It is quite sad how many people hate the Church and are so confused on what it actually teaches.

Oh, and happy birthday to eternal life to St. Francis de Sales.

Pray for us.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Why would so many exalt Mary when she's really not a whole lot different than any other believer in the NT.. ?

The humble will be exalted. All will call her blessed. (well, except Protestants...)

Mary believed the message from above and Christ was conceived in her by the power of the Holy Spirit...

A person believes the message from above and Christ is conceived in them by the power of the Holy Spirit...

So what makes Mary any different ?

Do you treat all of the mothers of those you supposedly love this way? She is honored so highly because God so chose to honor her, as well.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Mary is not Co-Redemptrix. There is only one Lord and Redeemer, Jesus Christ.

Another gentleman who doesn't know what "co-redemptrix" means... The term does not deny that Jesus is the One Lord and Redeemer.

Purgatory does not exist, and there is no second place of punishment. There is a period of transition after death of the departed (dead) in Christ, and these are prayed for by the Church. But no purgatory.

An Ecumenical Council has solemnly defined that Purgatory exists, since NOTHING unclean shall enter heaven. We both know that councils are infallible when proclaiming dogma. A number of Eastern Fathers admit to believing the idea, so it is part of the Apostolic Tradition (that the East refuses to uphold while in schism).

Regards

 

[Eventide]

The humble will be exalted. All will call her blessed. (well, except Protestants...)

And this is just as true for every Christian who has Christ IN THEM.. they're blessed beyond measure in Christ. So that's the point, why is Mary exalted above any other Christian when every Christian has Christ in them just as Mary did, only n a physical way... and I'm sure that Mary was born again spiritually and had Christ in her after Pentecost, when the promised Comforter was sent.

Do you treat all of the mothers of those you supposedly love this way? She is honored so highly because God so chose to honor her, as well.

Regards

God chooses to honor every man, woman, or child who trusts in the precious shed blood of His Son, by birthing Christ in our earthen vessel.. do you agree that every born again Christian has Christ IN THEM ?

How is that not the highest honor given to any creature.. having Christ in you ?

 

[francisdesales]

And this is just as true for every Christian who has Christ IN THEM.. they're blessed beyond measure in Christ. So that's the point, why is Mary exalted above any other Christian when every Christian has Christ in them just as Mary did, only n a physical way... and I'm sure that Mary was born again spiritually and had Christ in her after Pentecost, when the promised Comforter was sent.

Do sons no longer have a relationship with their mother after they are born? We believe that Jesus still continues to honor His mother (one of the commandments, correct?) and listens to her intercessions for our sake. Any special honors that we give to Mary says something about either Jesus Christ or the Church.

Regards

 

[Eventide]

Do sons no longer have a relationship with their mother after they are born? We believe that Jesus still continues to honor His mother (one of the commandments, correct?) and listens to her intercessions for our sake. Any special honors that we give to Mary says something about either Jesus Christ or the Church.

Regards

Who suggested anything remotely close to what you're saying here ?

I asked a simple question about how a Christian is not just as honored as Mary was because of their having Christ in them ?

Any answer for that ?