So, I have a little 16 month old son. This kid is very smart for his age. He will pick up on something the first time he sees it. he copies almost everything after seeing it just once. Well, he learned how to hit, and pinch from my cousin's small children who would hit and pinch him. He goes around hitting and pinching everyone now, from my husband to his 4 month old baby sister. I don't want to spank him because I don't think he will understand the concept of a spanking, and he'd probably try giving his baby sister a spanking after that. I have tried to tell him NO! in a firm tone and with a stern look on my face but he will keep doing it more. I have also tried the corner, but I don't think he gets the concept of that either because he will start doing the same thing as soon as he gets out of the corner. My son can be very difficult and I don't really know how I would go about disciplining a 16 month old. Any advice? :help
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
Disciplining a 1 year old.
- Thread starter micaela
- Start date
Danus
Member
micaela said:
Well, I think sometimes as parents we look for magic bullets to discipline when what we should do is focus on conditioning behavior. A one year old child is not going to understand much, but I think time out is effective when done right.
If you have a play-pen or some place like that where you can put him for a time then I would suggest doing that for a couple of minutes as soon as you see the negative behavior.
You're not going to be able to explain it to him, so just remove or distract him from the situation. Will it solve the problem immediately? NO, but over time it will condition the right behavior, and as your child grows you can become more sophisticated in the approach.
For example a 2 or 3 year old can usually reason a bit and talk some, so you might say; "We don't hit. Time out for 2 or 3 minutes".
Don't talk it up just place the child where you need them if they don't go on their own. When time out is up, don't talk about it just let them out but I would introduce some mental distraction. When time out is done you might say; "hey lets see what type of cars you have in that box of toys. Tell me what your favorite is." This get's the child thinking in another direction.
Someone once told me that Disciplining a child requires a disciplined parent. So, in other words it's work on your part and the results are more stretched out than immediate. Hope that helps.
heather
Member
I have to disagree just a bit.
When I raised my siblings, when they were 2 or 3 I would make them apologize for what they did specifically and give a hug. For example, if my sister took a toy from my brother, she would have to say "I'm sorry for taking your car." That way, the negative behavior was confirmed in her head as wrong. At the age of one, it got to the point where a firm "No." in a low voice became enough. Of course, they know at that age to push buttons and see how far they can go and get away with it. My niece spent a day here for a while and wouldn't leave the dog dish alone. After several "no"s she decided she was going to push it. I am not against a spanking (if done the right way) and got a wooden spoon out of the drawer and gave her hand a rap. Enough that she would feel it but not enough to hurt. Spankings should never be done out of anger. Always out of love. If you spank your child when you are upset or yelling, that is not good. As the child gets older, you can even explain to the child that you are spanking him because you love him and want to train him in the right ways or habits. The other thing is that any kind of spanking should be done with an object, like a spoon or belt, so that they associate your hand with love and that object with correction or discipline. Even the scriptures say "spare the rod, spoil the child" in Proverbs.
NOW, I am NOT for abusing a child, but I was spanked a child and will spank my child when needed.
When I raised my siblings, when they were 2 or 3 I would make them apologize for what they did specifically and give a hug. For example, if my sister took a toy from my brother, she would have to say "I'm sorry for taking your car." That way, the negative behavior was confirmed in her head as wrong. At the age of one, it got to the point where a firm "No." in a low voice became enough. Of course, they know at that age to push buttons and see how far they can go and get away with it. My niece spent a day here for a while and wouldn't leave the dog dish alone. After several "no"s she decided she was going to push it. I am not against a spanking (if done the right way) and got a wooden spoon out of the drawer and gave her hand a rap. Enough that she would feel it but not enough to hurt. Spankings should never be done out of anger. Always out of love. If you spank your child when you are upset or yelling, that is not good. As the child gets older, you can even explain to the child that you are spanking him because you love him and want to train him in the right ways or habits. The other thing is that any kind of spanking should be done with an object, like a spoon or belt, so that they associate your hand with love and that object with correction or discipline. Even the scriptures say "spare the rod, spoil the child" in Proverbs.
NOW, I am NOT for abusing a child, but I was spanked a child and will spank my child when needed.
Danus
Member
heather said:
OK, this may seem harsh, but No where in the bible doe it say; "spare the rod, spoil the child". No where. What you are referring to is Proverbs 13:24 He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him.
That is correct in terms of disciplining a child, but completely misconstrued in terms of corporal punishment; IE psychically punishing a child.
The Rod is a reference to the rod/staff used by sheep herders. It was a long stick with a hook on the end that fit around the neck of a sheep. Sheep herders did not beat sheep with it. They used it in many other ways. They poked sheep with it, They tapped them to get attention, they pulled them with it and they used it to fend off wolves and such. This is a huge misconception about the bible and what it says in regard to disciplining a child.
If you believe in spanking fine. Personally I don't. I think it is completely unnecessary and lazy and sends the wrong message. I'm I guilty of it? Yes, but we say don't hit and then we hit? justify that.
I remember the first time I spanked my daughter, She looked at me as if I had betrayed a trust and she was right. I decided from that point that I would be bigger than that. There is no such thing as striking a child in love. NONE what so ever. The two terms are diametrically apposed. Love does not equal hitting in any form. You will not find such a notion in the bible. The word Chasten used in the bible is of words not physically.
If you read Proverbs 23 all the way through you will see it is about words of instuction, not physical punishment.
12 Apply your heart to instruction, And your ears to words of knowledge.
13 Do not withhold correction from a child, For if you beat him with a rod, he will not die.
14 You shall beat him with a rod, And deliver his soul from hell.
15 My son, if your heart is wise, My heart will rejoice—indeed, I myself; 16 Yes, my inmost being will rejoice When your lips speak right things.
Do not let your heart envy sinners, But be zealous for the fear of the LORD all the day; 18 For surely there is a hereafter, And your hope will not be cut off. 19 Hear, my son, and be wise;......
It does not not say or imply feel the sting of my hand and be wise. It says HEAR. The term "Beat" does not mean to physically beat. It is a clear metaphor for words of instruction.
Nick
Member
I'm not a parent; I'm 17, but I do have two younger brothers, one is 14 and another is 3 years old. So I have helped my parents raise the youngest one quite a lot.
When he was about 1 year old, of course they don't understand the reasoning, but telling them "No" in a firm voice, giving them 'time-out' in a corner or just busying them with something else can help as well. Also, ignoring the bad behaviour and not giving it attention and distracitng them with other things can help to the trick as well. If the child is getting attention for doing it, especially at that age when they don't understand much, it can sometimes send the opposite message theat you're trying to give them.
Definately at that age, spanking won't do much, in fact it will probably only make the situation worse, as they are too young to understand.
But whatever you do, make sure the source of the bad behaviour - the bad examples of other children and adults - stops. Once you've stopped the source of the fire, then you can control the blaze much more effecitvely, so to speak.
When the child gets older, around 2, and especially 3, then they can get the reasoning, so getting them to say sorry and go up to their room is often a good approach. Make them understand why this is happening and why it's wrong.
I'm not against spanking, in certain situations. If they just continue to do it and it's getting very bad, some light spanking is good. But make sure it's done with the love of disciplining them, and make sure not to hurt them too badly. From my memory as a young child, the reason why the spanking works (when it's done right and at the right stage) is not because of the pain, but becasue of the humiliation.
Also, don't let them see you getting worked up. The calmer you are, the calmer the whole situation is.
That's my
.
When he was about 1 year old, of course they don't understand the reasoning, but telling them "No" in a firm voice, giving them 'time-out' in a corner or just busying them with something else can help as well. Also, ignoring the bad behaviour and not giving it attention and distracitng them with other things can help to the trick as well. If the child is getting attention for doing it, especially at that age when they don't understand much, it can sometimes send the opposite message theat you're trying to give them.
Definately at that age, spanking won't do much, in fact it will probably only make the situation worse, as they are too young to understand.
But whatever you do, make sure the source of the bad behaviour - the bad examples of other children and adults - stops. Once you've stopped the source of the fire, then you can control the blaze much more effecitvely, so to speak.
When the child gets older, around 2, and especially 3, then they can get the reasoning, so getting them to say sorry and go up to their room is often a good approach. Make them understand why this is happening and why it's wrong.
I'm not against spanking, in certain situations. If they just continue to do it and it's getting very bad, some light spanking is good. But make sure it's done with the love of disciplining them, and make sure not to hurt them too badly. From my memory as a young child, the reason why the spanking works (when it's done right and at the right stage) is not because of the pain, but becasue of the humiliation.
Also, don't let them see you getting worked up. The calmer you are, the calmer the whole situation is.
That's my
.
jasoncran
Member
i was spanked alot, but when i did recieve it, most of the time i deserved it, and i was told why i got it. my dad did go overboard at times.
many army brats are subjugated to the pt exercises that all soldies go through. that is worse then any spanking. try sitting in the iron chair and tell me which do you prefer.
many army brats are subjugated to the pt exercises that all soldies go through. that is worse then any spanking. try sitting in the iron chair and tell me which do you prefer.
micaela said:
Little rascal. One of my kids got into biting, and another one liked to punch her older brother and sister in the stomach. I tried to save spanking for outright rebellion. If I were you, I'd try a basket hold if you can catch him in the act. Just wrap his little arms up and hold him tight...he won't like it, but if you watch him close, a few of those and he should get the idea. :halo
Disciplining a 1 year old
The subject of spanking can draw deep emotions. The first order of business is to define terms. No one serious about spanking is describing an out of control parent filled with rage taking a weapon to his child.
When our children were about 2 1/2 and older, we would offer them a choice of three swats on the hand or five minutes on the chair. They would almost always select the swats on the hand because it would be over sooner. Offering a child less than 2 1/2 a choice may not be productive.
We selected a paint stirrer (available at hardware stores) because the mass is so low that no damage can be done. We tried it as hard as we could on our own hands to make sure.
With a one year old, you are not going to engage in much logic or understanding. However, you do have an opportunity to establish a pattern for how infractions are dealt with.
Parent: "Did you hit your sister?"
Child: "Yes"
Parent "Should you have hit your sister?"
Child: "No"
Parent what should you have done instead of hitting your sister?"
Child: "Said help please, Mama."
Then administer three swats to the back of the hand.
The verbal dialog establishes a framework of confession and repentance. This puts the consequence in an administrative and parental context so the child does not see it as another "play" activity.
In general hand swats can cover almost all infractions. The child is placed in a position of having to learn to regulate his behavior in order to avoid consequences.
Things like tantrums and emotional overload situations are not punished but still disciplined. For example, a child can be placed on a chair or in a corner until they have regained sufficient self-control to be able to address a situation.
Having small children gives significant insight into the sin nature. Parents have a crucial role to play in helping children learn to control their unbelievable selfishness. As the parent establishes patterns for behavior, the parent can also help establish a pattern for the child that integrates Jesus into every aspect of life.
Many children grow unsaved because their only exposure to Jesus is Sunday School or church. The parent can demonstrate how Jesus is important every minute of the day. The child who is saved and starts to call on the name of Jesus has a tremendous advantage in that the Lord who created the universe is inside him wanting to help him with a new heart that can demonstrate self-control, selflessness, and love.
The parent who can help his child grow into the image of Jesus truly does the Lord's work.
The subject of spanking can draw deep emotions. The first order of business is to define terms. No one serious about spanking is describing an out of control parent filled with rage taking a weapon to his child.
When our children were about 2 1/2 and older, we would offer them a choice of three swats on the hand or five minutes on the chair. They would almost always select the swats on the hand because it would be over sooner. Offering a child less than 2 1/2 a choice may not be productive.
We selected a paint stirrer (available at hardware stores) because the mass is so low that no damage can be done. We tried it as hard as we could on our own hands to make sure.
With a one year old, you are not going to engage in much logic or understanding. However, you do have an opportunity to establish a pattern for how infractions are dealt with.
Parent: "Did you hit your sister?"
Child: "Yes"
Parent "Should you have hit your sister?"
Child: "No"
Parent what should you have done instead of hitting your sister?"
Child: "Said help please, Mama."
Then administer three swats to the back of the hand.
The verbal dialog establishes a framework of confession and repentance. This puts the consequence in an administrative and parental context so the child does not see it as another "play" activity.
In general hand swats can cover almost all infractions. The child is placed in a position of having to learn to regulate his behavior in order to avoid consequences.
Things like tantrums and emotional overload situations are not punished but still disciplined. For example, a child can be placed on a chair or in a corner until they have regained sufficient self-control to be able to address a situation.
Having small children gives significant insight into the sin nature. Parents have a crucial role to play in helping children learn to control their unbelievable selfishness. As the parent establishes patterns for behavior, the parent can also help establish a pattern for the child that integrates Jesus into every aspect of life.
Many children grow unsaved because their only exposure to Jesus is Sunday School or church. The parent can demonstrate how Jesus is important every minute of the day. The child who is saved and starts to call on the name of Jesus has a tremendous advantage in that the Lord who created the universe is inside him wanting to help him with a new heart that can demonstrate self-control, selflessness, and love.
The parent who can help his child grow into the image of Jesus truly does the Lord's work.
GodspromisesRyes
Member
If telling them NO doesnt work, then I would begin with a time out and then make them apologize to the person they hurt- and when someone they are learning it from hurts THEM, have them hug the one who hurt them or tell them they love them anyways.
I would try that for awhile, and if it has no effect after a couple days then i would give them a small swat on the diaper when they do it and then have them apologize.- Often until they are much much older, the spanking is not given to hurt them but a small swat is enough to catch their feelings and turn them around.
to those who say the " rod" is not about literal spankings- they have bought a liberal lie, no offence intended seriously.
o 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for [if] thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
Pro 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
Pro 26:3 A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool's back.
Even God has a ROD that He uses on His people! He often uses the ROD OF MEN and He sent the assyrians against His people and called them HIS ROD.
NOW we dont have to abuse them,but spanking is good. when done in love.
I would try that for awhile, and if it has no effect after a couple days then i would give them a small swat on the diaper when they do it and then have them apologize.- Often until they are much much older, the spanking is not given to hurt them but a small swat is enough to catch their feelings and turn them around.
to those who say the " rod" is not about literal spankings- they have bought a liberal lie, no offence intended seriously.
o 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for [if] thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
Pro 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
Pro 26:3 A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool's back.
Even God has a ROD that He uses on His people! He often uses the ROD OF MEN and He sent the assyrians against His people and called them HIS ROD.
NOW we dont have to abuse them,but spanking is good. when done in love.
heather
Member
GodspromisesRyes said:
Thank you.
It's all in the translation. I don't understand why physical punishment is so hated. I have no problem with physically correcting your child. I have a problem with abuse, but we're not talking about abuse here. There have been plenty of times when God has used physical correction/punishment with me. It may not be a literal spanking...but it's been no less physical.
And if we are to learn from Him, why can't we follow His example?
Danus
Member
Well, I guess I've either been very lucky or I just have well behaved kids. I've adopted a no spanking policy and it's worked very well for me and my kids.
Don't get me wrong, my girls do all sorts of things, but I understand them. We talk about it and they are punished for their misbehavior. These days it means taking away a privilege or an extra choir or two. My favorite chore for them is "Dog Doody". That involves a scoop and a pale in the back yard; and that's a full half acre. They hate that. I am proud to say I have not had to resort to physically striking them in any way.
Physically striking someone for their behavior; aside from defending ones self, teaches nothing more than oppression. It says I am larger and stronger than you and I don't have the time patience or perhaps even the intellect to deal with what I believe is your insubordination so I am simply going to use a show of force.......Because I love you....??? I know of no teaching from Jesus that would support that.
How does one administer a physical punishment with love behind it? How lightly should one strike a child? Should they cry? Every spanking I ever got when I was a child made me cry; One because it hurt and two because I felt betrayed, and three because I felt misunderstood by the one who was supposed to be more than that to me in my life.
The term Spanking...sounds a lot better than beating, but then Proverbs 23:13 does say BEAT them doesn't it? In fact I don't know of the word SPANK anywhere in the bible. So, why do we even say "I believe in "spanking"? Why not say I believe in Beating? That's what the bible says after all "beat them", and if it in fact means to literally beat someone with a rod why not say what it says? Is it more conservative to use the word Spank than the word Beat? Even better would be to say "spank with love". Sounds very gentle. How does that not spoil a child? "Spoil" - To impair the value or quality of; To damage irreparably; ruin....Spanking, striking, beating call it what you will, but how does such an act, in and of itself, not live up to the very definition some say it is supposed to keep a child from.
Finally a view on the term ROD as used in proverbs by one of the most widely respected Christian psychologist, biblical scholar and syndicated author, John Rosemond. ....Hardly Liberal
http://www.parentingbythebook.com/Proverbs-1324.html
Don't get me wrong, my girls do all sorts of things, but I understand them. We talk about it and they are punished for their misbehavior. These days it means taking away a privilege or an extra choir or two. My favorite chore for them is "Dog Doody". That involves a scoop and a pale in the back yard; and that's a full half acre. They hate that. I am proud to say I have not had to resort to physically striking them in any way.
Physically striking someone for their behavior; aside from defending ones self, teaches nothing more than oppression. It says I am larger and stronger than you and I don't have the time patience or perhaps even the intellect to deal with what I believe is your insubordination so I am simply going to use a show of force.......Because I love you....??? I know of no teaching from Jesus that would support that.
How does one administer a physical punishment with love behind it? How lightly should one strike a child? Should they cry? Every spanking I ever got when I was a child made me cry; One because it hurt and two because I felt betrayed, and three because I felt misunderstood by the one who was supposed to be more than that to me in my life.
The term Spanking...sounds a lot better than beating, but then Proverbs 23:13 does say BEAT them doesn't it? In fact I don't know of the word SPANK anywhere in the bible. So, why do we even say "I believe in "spanking"? Why not say I believe in Beating? That's what the bible says after all "beat them", and if it in fact means to literally beat someone with a rod why not say what it says? Is it more conservative to use the word Spank than the word Beat? Even better would be to say "spank with love". Sounds very gentle. How does that not spoil a child? "Spoil" - To impair the value or quality of; To damage irreparably; ruin....Spanking, striking, beating call it what you will, but how does such an act, in and of itself, not live up to the very definition some say it is supposed to keep a child from.
Finally a view on the term ROD as used in proverbs by one of the most widely respected Christian psychologist, biblical scholar and syndicated author, John Rosemond. ....Hardly Liberal
http://www.parentingbythebook.com/Proverbs-1324.html
From the article...
I would agree with this. Spankings have their place...that would be rebellion. I'm sure most of us realize disciplining with love as opposed to venting our anger and frustration. If our children grow up thinking others will distract or talk them into obeying, they'll be sadly mistaken. They must learn to obey their parents, and, unfortunately, too many children today are raised not to.
I would agree with this. Spankings have their place...that would be rebellion. I'm sure most of us realize disciplining with love as opposed to venting our anger and frustration. If our children grow up thinking others will distract or talk them into obeying, they'll be sadly mistaken. They must learn to obey their parents, and, unfortunately, too many children today are raised not to.
GodspromisesRyes
Member
Isa 10:5 ¶ O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.
Isa 10:6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
Isa 10:7 Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but [it is] in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.
Isa 10:8 For he saith, [Are] not my princes altogether kings?
Isa 10:9 [Is] not Calno as Carchemish? [is] not Hamath as Arpad? [is] not Samaria as Damascus?
Isa 10:10 As my hand hath found the kingdoms of the idols, and whose graven images did excel them of Jerusalem and of Samaria;
Isa 10:11 Shall I not, as I have done unto Samaria and her idols, so do to Jerusalem and her idols?
Isa 10:12 ¶ Wherefore it shall come to pass, [that] when the Lord hath performed his whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks.
Isa 10:13 For he saith, By the strength of my hand I have done [it], and by my wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant [man]:
Isa 10:14 And my hand hath found as a nest the riches of the people: and as one gathereth eggs [that are] left, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or opened the mouth, or peeped.
Isa 10:15 ¶ Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? [or] shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake [itself] against them that lift it up, [or] as if the staff should lift up [itself, as if it were] no wood.
The rod in scripture is clearly layed out as a tool for punishment that is physical.It appears that the main problems people have with this are their own ideas and what the culture says and not so much what God does. As children of God He chastens us with the rod if He does not chasten us we are not His but are illegitamate.
Hbr 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Hbr 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Hbr 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Hbr 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Hbr 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected [us], and we gave [them] reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Hbr 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened [us] after their own pleasure; but he for [our] profit, that [we] might be partakers of his holiness.
Hbr 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
To make sure we dunderstand this is physical he even says " scourages".
The question was asked how do you spank with love.- The answer is you love their soul and their salvation MORE than their flesh and you understand that their flesh is just as sinful as every mans and that if lef tto theif flesh they would run themsleves into sin and hell because the carnal nature is the enemy of God. Our desire is to raise children in the Lord to inherit salvation- not to please their flesh for a moment and spare it, becuase their flesh will not spare them.-God punishes His children in physical ways and teaches us to be like him.
If our " modern sensabilities" are above the ways of God then we will suffer for not heeding His wisdom- or our children will suffer for it. And it is true, we are bigger than our children- we are older also- they should fear us just as we are to fear God and they are to know that we love them.
Lev 19:3 Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and keep my sabbaths: I [am] the LORD your God.
We are not to think that our children are equal to us in postion or wisdom or understanding. They need to be under submission and trained up.
Isa 10:6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
Isa 10:7 Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but [it is] in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.
Isa 10:8 For he saith, [Are] not my princes altogether kings?
Isa 10:9 [Is] not Calno as Carchemish? [is] not Hamath as Arpad? [is] not Samaria as Damascus?
Isa 10:10 As my hand hath found the kingdoms of the idols, and whose graven images did excel them of Jerusalem and of Samaria;
Isa 10:11 Shall I not, as I have done unto Samaria and her idols, so do to Jerusalem and her idols?
Isa 10:12 ¶ Wherefore it shall come to pass, [that] when the Lord hath performed his whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks.
Isa 10:13 For he saith, By the strength of my hand I have done [it], and by my wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant [man]:
Isa 10:14 And my hand hath found as a nest the riches of the people: and as one gathereth eggs [that are] left, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or opened the mouth, or peeped.
Isa 10:15 ¶ Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? [or] shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake [itself] against them that lift it up, [or] as if the staff should lift up [itself, as if it were] no wood.
The rod in scripture is clearly layed out as a tool for punishment that is physical.It appears that the main problems people have with this are their own ideas and what the culture says and not so much what God does. As children of God He chastens us with the rod if He does not chasten us we are not His but are illegitamate.
Hbr 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Hbr 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Hbr 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Hbr 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Hbr 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected [us], and we gave [them] reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Hbr 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened [us] after their own pleasure; but he for [our] profit, that [we] might be partakers of his holiness.
Hbr 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
To make sure we dunderstand this is physical he even says " scourages".
The question was asked how do you spank with love.- The answer is you love their soul and their salvation MORE than their flesh and you understand that their flesh is just as sinful as every mans and that if lef tto theif flesh they would run themsleves into sin and hell because the carnal nature is the enemy of God. Our desire is to raise children in the Lord to inherit salvation- not to please their flesh for a moment and spare it, becuase their flesh will not spare them.-God punishes His children in physical ways and teaches us to be like him.
If our " modern sensabilities" are above the ways of God then we will suffer for not heeding His wisdom- or our children will suffer for it. And it is true, we are bigger than our children- we are older also- they should fear us just as we are to fear God and they are to know that we love them.
Lev 19:3 Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and keep my sabbaths: I [am] the LORD your God.
We are not to think that our children are equal to us in postion or wisdom or understanding. They need to be under submission and trained up.
Danus
Member
glorydaz said:
Ahh you read the link
I agree as well on that point. But, to further what John Rosemond is stating in that paragraph; he is specifically addressing the subject of "Discipline" in relation to what many Christians believe about spanking. For many discipline has become synonymous with spanking.
The concern is the misunderstanding of the term "Rod" as Dr Rosemond points out well above that paragraph for the benefit of anyone here who may not have taken the time to also read what he has to say.
In terms of the subject of spanking a child, the bible is often misused to justify it. It's often misquoted and misunderstood as to it's full meaning with the defense that any other interpretation is liberal hog-wash when in fact there are other interpretations, quite old and well before our time even, that have become very standard, and have derived from honest scholarly study of the scriptures.
If the only defense of such study is that it comes from modern day liberals in San Fransisco, or what ever; That's a weak argument at best and does not do justice to some of the great minds who have spent their lives studying this sacred text.
http://www.parentingbythebook.com/Proverbs-1324.html
I believe If we are going to quote the bible, we should; 1 quote what it actually says rather than boiling critical verses down to cliches that are not found in the bible. (Fair enough?) and 2 defend our understanding of it so that interpretation has a chance to be weighed correctly.
This might be a great topic for one of the other areas on this forum as well.
Good post from all, Something to think about.
heather
Member
In one of Paul's letters (I'm not sure which book and am unable to look it up at this point in time) he talks about individual sins. These are sins that are different for everybody. For example, for me, personally, it is not a sin to have an alcoholic drink with dinner while it is a sin to smoke. Whereas, for my husband, smoking an occasional cigar is not a sin but going into church on a Sunday morning unprepared (as in practicing before since he is on the worship team) is.
I believe spanking/physical correction or punishment is one of those individual sins. Each person must decide for himself if spanking their child will cause them a separation from the Holy Spirit. Spanking is not one of the things that is made clear cut in the Bible as right or wrong. It's not like murder or adultery or worshiping false idols or hating your brother. It's one of those individual sins. So, I will not be adding scripture (as clearly that "cliche" remark was directed towards me.
And for those saying the rod was used to bring sheep back or guide them, that was the staff. It is located at the other end of the rod. The rod was a ball of roots that was used as a club end of the shepherd's tool. It was used to beat lions and bears. Got that? Beat. Like in the Proverbs passage that Danus quoted after the whole "spare the rod, spoil the child" not being said. This passage does tell the child to hear (like you said, Danus) but it also says "Do not withhold correction from a child, for if you beat him, he will not die." This is directed towards the parent.
SO, if we're going to
And that is my opinion on spanking a child, when necessary. As for each of us, we will have to decide individually if spanking our children separates us from God. If it is a sin for you, then you should not do it. It is absolutely something to spend much time in prayer and meditation about.
I believe spanking/physical correction or punishment is one of those individual sins. Each person must decide for himself if spanking their child will cause them a separation from the Holy Spirit. Spanking is not one of the things that is made clear cut in the Bible as right or wrong. It's not like murder or adultery or worshiping false idols or hating your brother. It's one of those individual sins. So, I will not be adding scripture (as clearly that "cliche" remark was directed towards me.
And for those saying the rod was used to bring sheep back or guide them, that was the staff. It is located at the other end of the rod. The rod was a ball of roots that was used as a club end of the shepherd's tool. It was used to beat lions and bears. Got that? Beat. Like in the Proverbs passage that Danus quoted after the whole "spare the rod, spoil the child" not being said. This passage does tell the child to hear (like you said, Danus) but it also says "Do not withhold correction from a child, for if you beat him, he will not die." This is directed towards the parent.
SO, if we're going to
let's quote the whole thing and not pick and choose what we want from a passage and ignore the rest. Lying to ourselves make Christ out to be a liar.
And that is my opinion on spanking a child, when necessary. As for each of us, we will have to decide individually if spanking our children separates us from God. If it is a sin for you, then you should not do it. It is absolutely something to spend much time in prayer and meditation about.
Danus
Member
heather said:
True my post is directed at "Spare the Rod, Spoil the child". I in no way meant to stir anger or hurt feelings and If I did that I certainly understand. All you did was answer a post honestly. I picked up on that saying and seemed to attacked a little.Please except my apology for coming off as an opinionated jerk. Please also understand that that's my God given nature and while I understand the saying, I strongly disagree that we should say that the bible says that when it does not.
As I mentioned I do not spank my kids. I have, but I feel it's wrong and unloving. It serves no purpose for me and my kids are not "spoiled" for it. My daughters come to me often when they do something wrong. They don't "fear" me in my dominance to them, they fear me in loving respect to my Character, to my nature towards them and to my wisdom for them as their parent, their earthly father.
Do I disagree with others practicing spanking? To the point of abusing a child no, and I don't believe that the vast majority of Christian parents abuse kids by spanking them. So, no. I will however defend the view of not spanking as well as what I believe the bible says about the subject.
My problem, if you will, is about using a cliche and justifying spanking with it and further using biblical text that has other well defined and well excepted meaning among biblical scholars. Further I feel that those who strongly advocate spanking the most are often the ones who tend to take the text well beyond what it says and mixing sayings and words that are not there in virtually any translation with little regard to careful biblical scholarship.
http://www.faithtrustinstitute.org/down ... idance.pdf
As for your quote
Nick
Member
Heather, the individuals' sin is from Romans 14:
1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "[a] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "[a] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
heather
Member
Thanks Nick. That's where I was thinking but I had to go do something else and I didn't have time to really look, and I'm sometimes bad at addresses.
And Danus, I do appreciate your apology but simply hate when someone directs something at me without saying it to my "face" (if you will). That is where you may have heard some anger.
In your original reply is were putting the emphasis on the child hearing and leaving out the instruction to the parent. And that is where I was making a point of picking and choosing which scripture to follow. By picking what we want out of scripture, we, in essence, lie to ourselves (which makes Christ the liar in our eyes). I am by no means picking on you, as we are all guilty of this in one time or another.
And Danus, I do appreciate your apology but simply hate when someone directs something at me without saying it to my "face" (if you will). That is where you may have heard some anger.
In your original reply is were putting the emphasis on the child hearing and leaving out the instruction to the parent. And that is where I was making a point of picking and choosing which scripture to follow. By picking what we want out of scripture, we, in essence, lie to ourselves (which makes Christ the liar in our eyes). I am by no means picking on you, as we are all guilty of this in one time or another.
Danus
Member
heather said:
Fair enough. You are correct in the instruction to the parent to which the bible makes clear in many places, which I am sure we can all agree is to not withhold discipline or instruction to our children. Such discipline can be in many good forms.
Good reference to Romans 14. I was looking for 40 min to think what that was. Thanks Nick
Debate is healthy.
