Dispensational End Times Theology ;)

[sheshisown]

Hello~

To this VERY-abundant weight of Preterist Theology regarding the End Times I am adding a study in Dispensational Theology edited on June 17th>(written by Charles Larkin)

Though I expect to get much flack~ I do not expect to answer any that are simply out to bash my view~ What would be the possible edification in that? I will be quoting the KJV and the NKJV text for referrence.

So~ We begin with Daniel's prophecy focusing on the antichrist and whether this can possibly be Antiochus Epiphanes or not, and why...

Daniel’s Prophecy of the origin of antichrist.

Daniel saw come up among the “ten horns†…on the head of the fourth wild beast a little horn… and that this little horn had “eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things.†Dan. 7:7+8. Daniel was told that this little horn was a king that should arise, and that he would be a ‘person’ of remarkable intelligence and great oratorical powers, having a “mouth speaking great things.†That he would be audacious, arrogant, domineering and persecuting, and change “times and laws†and that the “saints of the Most High†(Daniel’s own people, the Jews) would be given into his hands for a “time and times and the dividing of time,†or 3½ years… Dan. 7:23-26.

Later Daniel had a vision of a ram and a he goat contesting for supremacy. Dan. 8:1-27.

The he goat had a “notable horn between his eyes.†This great horn was broken, and in its place four notable horns sprang up, and out of one of them sprang forth a little horn.

“which waxed exceedingly great toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the 'Pleasant Land' (Jerusalem). And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven, and it cast down some of the host and of the stars (angels) to the ground, and stamped upon them. Yea, he (the little horn) magnified himself even to the “prince of the host†(the Lord God, Joshua 5:13-15, 1 Sam. 17:45), and by him (the little horn antichrist) the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary (the Temple) was cast down.†Dan. 8:9-11.

Now when Daniel asked for the meaning of the vision he was told that the ram stood for the Medo-Persian Kingdom, and the he goat stood for the Grecian Kingdom, and that the four horns that came up in the place of the great horn stood for four kings and that the little horn that came up on one of the four horns stood for a King of "fierce countenance, who in the latter time of their kingdom†(the Four Worldwide Kingdoms and not the four Kingdoms into which the Grecian Empire was divided, for the ‘time’ will be that when the ~transgressors are come to the full~), "shall stand up."

This King shall understand “dark sentences,†and…

“His power shall be mighty, but not by his own power (Satan shall incarnate himself in him), and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper and practice and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people (the Jews). And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand (no one shall be able to buy without the “mark of the Beast.†Rev. 13:17), “…and he shall magnify himself in his heart (2 Thess. 2:3,4), …and by peace shall destroy many; he shall also stand up against the prince of princes, but he shall be broken without hand.†Dan. 8:23-25.

This clearly identifies the little horn or king of fierce countenance which came out of one of the four horns that took the place of the notable horn on the head of the he goat as the antichrist.
Neither has Antiochus Epiphanes (B.C. 175-165) nor any other ruler of the past has ever stood up against JESUS, the “Prince of Princes.†:eyebrow

Neither was Antiochus Epiphanes “broken without hand;†he died a natural death at Tabae in B.C. 165. :yes But the antichrist is to be “broken without hand.†His Kingdom is to be destroyed by a “stone cut out of the mountain without hands,†the Kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ, Dan. 2:34,35,44,45, and “he himself shall be paralyzed by the brightness of the Lord’s Coming†(1 Thess. 2:8), and “be cast alive into the lake of fire.†Rev. 19:20. :yes

Two godly men, Enoch and Elijah, were translated to heaven “without dying,†and two wicked men, spoken of officially as the beast and the false prophet, will be cast into the lake of fire “without dying.â€Â
Those who claim that the little horn of Daniel 7, and the little horn of Daniel 8, are not the same, because the little horn of Daniel 7 arises amid the ten horns, of the fourth beast, which represents the Roman Empire, and the little horn of Daniel 8, arises on one of the four horns, that take the place of the great horn on the head of the he goat, which represents the third beast, the Grecian Empire… FORGET to compare the vision that the Apostle John had of the revived Roman Empire (Rev. 13:1,2 the Roman Empire in its last stage). Which reveals the fact that the “last stage†of the Roman Empire will include “ALL of the characteristics†of ALL four Empires, Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Grecian, and old Roman.

This is seen in the character of the beast that John saw come up out of the sea… It was like unto a Leopard (Greece), with the feet of a bear (Medo-Persian), and the mouth of a lion (Babylon). The fact that the body of the beast was like a leopard (Greece) reveals the fact that the dominant feature of the revived Roman Empire will be Grecian, and that therefore the ten Federated Kingdoms will include the four kingdoms into which the Grecian Empire was divided which include … Egypt, Macedonia, Thrace, and Syria. It follows therefore that the little horn that arises on the fourth horn of the he goat (Greece) is identical with the little horn of the fourth beast (Rome). :nod

Those who claim that the little horn that came up on one of the four horns of the he goat was fulfilled in Antiochus Epiphanes (who was a king of Syria) overlook the fact that while Antiochus Epiphanes devastated Israel and caused an “idol altar†to be erected on the altar of the temple, on which he offered swine’s flesh, which was an abomination to the Jews… he does not fulfill the description of the little horn of the he goat. Dan. 8:9-13. Antiochus Epiphanes also does not compare with this he goat for satanic malice.

The “abomination of desolation†that Daniel refers to in (Dan. 9:27) is to occur in the “last half†of “Daniel’s seventieth week,†and as Jesus spoke of it as still unfulfilled in His day… “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy placeâ€Â(whoever reads, let him understand), (Matt. 24:15). Therefore, it is clear that Antiochus Epiphanes was NOT the fulfillment of the little horn of Dan. 8:9-13. :crazy

While it was revealed to Daniel that the little horn (or antichrist) should come out of one of the four horns that took the place of the great horn on the head of the he goat… Daniel needed further understanding as to which one.

We now know from history that the great horn represented Alexander the Great, and that the four notable horns that took the place of the great horn at the death of Alexander the Great… represented the four Kingdoms into which his Kingdom was divided, visibly, Egypt, Macedonia, Thrace, and Syria (which included Assyria). These four Kingdoms were (in time) all absorbed into the fourth world Kingdom the Roman Empire. Of which the last to lose its identity was Egypt, which surrendered in B.C. 30.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now so that Daniel would know in which one of these four Kingdoms the little horn (or antichrist) would arise~ he was given a third vision 15 years after his vision of the ram and he goat. The third vision was of two kings, the king of the north and the king of the south. Daniel 11:1-45.

The king of the north was the king of Syria, his character and conduct is described (Dan. 11:36-38) as similar to that of the little horn that came out of one of the four horns. This suggests that the antichrist will come from Syria.

That the king of the north spoken of in Dan. 11:21-31 was Antiochus Epiphanes there can be no question. However, he was not the little horn, nor was he the antichrist, who is still to come. Possibly out of Syria in the “latter days.†The remainder of the chapter from the 35th verse on describe the conduct of the future antichrist.

The intervening verses, the 32 through 35, fill in the gap between the time of Antiochus Epiphanes and the appearance of the antichrist.

Those who do wickedly against the covenant he shall corrupt with flattery; but the people who know their God shall be strong, and carry out great exploits. And those of the people who understand shall instruct many; yet for many days they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plundering. Now when they fall, they shall be aided with a little help; but many shall join with them by intrigue. And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time. Daniel 11:32-35 NKJV

There is no intimation that Antiochus Epiphanes is even to be regarded as a ‘type’ of antichrist. They are distinct historical personages, each dealt with in his own place, and though they resemble each other in some respects, they must not be confused with each other.

The terms north and south may be applied to Syria and Egypt because of their geographic relation to Israel (the pleasant or glorious land. Dan. 8:9; 11:16,41). Certainly, in the thought of God, Jerusalem is at the same time the geographic and moral center of the earth. We may understand that the “king of the north†is the King of Syria, which also includes Assyria; and may be the area from which the antichrist will come, for we read in Isa. 10:12~

“That when the Lord hath performed His whole work upon Mount Zion and on Jerusalem (which will not be until Christ comes back), I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria (antichrist) and the glory of his high looks.â€Â

And we read in Isa. 14:25

“I will break the Assyrian (the antichrist) in my land (Israel), and upon my mountains ‘tread him under foot;’ then shall his yoke depart from off them (Israel), and his burden depart from off their shoulders.â€Â
The context shows that this prophecy is connected with the restoration of Israel to their own land and of the downfall of antichrist.

The Antichrist, will possibly then be a Syrian Jew, for it is not likely that the Jews will accept as their Messiah one who is not a Jew, unless the claimant by false pretence makes them believe he is one. This, however, does not prevent the antichrist being a Roman citizen, and a king of the revived Roman Empire, for Saul of Tarsus was both a Jew and a Roman citizen. (Larkin)

As I noted biblical confirmation or correction is welcomed...in my holding this view... but let's keep it biblical, and please stick to the area of text in question here, thanks. :D

:shades In Christ... bonnie

 

[Matthew24:34]

bonnie: I don't know about anyone else here, but I do not want to get into any of this because it is not your work. It is easy to copy and paste something (and it should be acknowledged). This is not your work, bonnie. If you would like to actually "keep it biblical from your own work," I would be happy to discuss these issues.

What you posted is from Clarence Larkin's book, Dispensational Truth or God's Plan and Purpose in the Ages, chapter 19.

 

[sheshisown]

Matthew~ :D

Oh~ I am so sorry you are right, I should have included Clarence Larkin's name, I know better than that brother... I said it was a study, not my study, and I should have included his name to it. :shades

I do believe in a Futurist View though and some of his dispensational teachings are very adept at detailing this difficult portion of scripture in the Futurists View which includes Pre-Tribulational rapture. My problem is that I have only most recently (last summer) begun to study End Times in earnest for myself~ and it is not simple to understand, or even to discuss.

However I am interested... I suppose you all lean on previous authors who describe your own personal view best, hm? Maybe I am wrong though, you may have studied this for years like some of my brothers at my church.

Would you be willing to delve into this study, by Larkin? Or is his reasoning in the Word harder to defeat than mine? I would only seek to support his view with my own understanding of it and the scriptures...

bonnie

Let me know :nod

 

[Matthew24:34]

Matthew~ :D

Oh~ I am so sorry you are right, I should have included Clarence Larkin's name, I know better than that brother... I said it was a study, not my study, and I should have included his name to it. :shades

I do believe in a Futurist View though and some of his dispensational teachings are very adept at detailing this difficult portion of scripture in the Futurists View which includes Pre-Tribulational rapture. My problem is that I have only most recently (last summer) begun to study End Times in earnest for myself~ and it is not simple to understand, or even to discuss.

However I am interested... I suppose you all lean on previous authors who describe your own personal view best, hm? Maybe I am wrong though, you may have studied this for years like some of my brothers at my church.

Would you be willing to delve into this study, by Larkin? Or is his reasoning in the Word harder to defeat than mine? I would only seek to support his view with my own understanding of it and the scriptures...

bonnie

Let me know :nod

Greetings, sheshisown: I am not totally opposed to using other people's studies. I, too, read things by others more learned than myself. But I always try to put those things on which I agree--things I have thoroughly checked out in the Scriptures--into my own words. When it involves another's research, I try to give credit where credit is due.

Most people who copy and paste and fail to acknowledge the author do so quite innocently. From the spirit of your posts, I believe you meant no harm. The problem is that when so much information is posted, most people won't take the time to read it. I admit that I merely skimmed Larkin's words. There is simply just too much there to handle without spending a great deal of time reading his thoughts and studying in depth the Bible verses he used for support. I am also sure that you agree with him, but we must all be careful that we are not agreeing with a particular author apart from our own investigation of the Word of God. Like me, I am sure you have read books and found that you agreed with some of the author's perspectives but disagreed with others.

The point for me is that I like to stick with the Scriptures as much as possible by studying a particular topic or passage. Disagree with me if you must (and you probably will), but I will try as much as is humanly possible to post only those passages and verses which I have personally studied in their contexts because another pet peeve of mine is the posting by others of multitudes of verses that have been stripped out of their contexts (sadly, these are often lists that have been compiled by someone other than the poster). It is so easy to use verses to support our presupposition simply because they have similar terminology. Upon closer examination, however, we may find that a verse does not at all support our premise.

I guess what I am asking is this: Can you narrow this topic down in some way so that it is manageable? And can you use verses or passages that you yourself have studied in their context by giving proper attention to the historical setting, the purpose of the author, the audience relevance, and the impact the author's words would have had on those to whom they were first directed?

Even though I have settled on a particular view through my own personal study (i.e. preterism), I always approach the Scriptures afresh to do as much as possible to make sure that I am indeed understanding correctly. I ask of myself the same thing I ask of others on these threads--will we accept what the Scriptures clearly teach regardless of how many long-held, precious beliefs we might have to abandon in the process? Does what we believe really match the truths in the Scriptures? This is not a one-time endeavor. It must be the spirit of our entire approach to Bible study every time we open the Book!

Please be assured that what I say to others here about these things I first of all say to myself! Let us do all that is within our power, through the Spirit's guidance, to rightly divide the Word of Truth! I always look forward to sound Bible study and would be interested in doing just that with you.

Sincerely, in Christ, Matthew24:34

 

[Vic C.]

Ok Bonnie, ready. Copyrights have been acknowledged and we can proceed ahead, on topic. :yes

So you all know, this was at my request and for my benefit too because I just don't have much working knowledge of the standard seven point dispensational theology.

Discuss and correct as necessary, but lets try not to turn this into a debate. I know, tall order! :biglaugh

 

[Sinthesis]

My first question is:
How does dispensational end times theology establish that any of Daniel's prophecies involve 'the antichrist'?

 

[inhopeofglory]

I'm not strictly dispensational, but I am a pre-millennial futurist.

How does dispensational end times theology establish that any of Daniel's prophecies involve 'the antichrist'?

Off the top of my head, simply because Daniel's prophecies clearly portray the succession of earthly kingdoms (Babylon, Assyria, Greece, Rome, another (whatever you interpret it to be, whether a re-established Roman Empire or something similar but different)...) until the establishment of Christ's (physical) kingdom. Antichrist (the name comes from various references in 1 John) is understood to be the world ruler at the end of this age before Christ's return, and thus his rule must be covered by Daniel's prophecies.

More specifically, Daniel speaks of a "little horn" who speaks great blasphemies and makes war against the saints (Daniel 7:8, 20-22). This description is also found in Revelation 13, of the "beast from the sea", someone who clearly rules the world (Revelation 13:7-8). This world leader is evidently the last world leader before Christ returns, as seen in Revelation 19 (see references to "the beast"). Thus we identify the "little horn" as Antichrist.

 

[sheshisown]

Matthew~

Thank you for your kind reply, I have not been so graciously recieved where I have failed before in these open forums. Also, I agree whole-heartedly with your correction and take it to heart~ and will by the grace of God~ be enabled to follow those guidelines you set forth. I always pray for an open mind to the Word to present to me the truths I still lack, and an open heart to recieve it by faith.

New guidelines to work by:

Can you narrow this topic down in some way so that it is manageable? And can you use verses or passages that you yourself have studied in their context by giving proper attention to the historical setting, the purpose of the author, the audience relevance, and the impact the author's words would have had on those to whom they were first directed?

The historical inferences are very relative, however, I may take a tack which seeks to relate current history~ as it unfolds, and especially I will also seek to compare scripture with scripture as I believe the Bible is it's own best interpreter and expounder. You gentlemen can make me more aware of some of the more "intricate historical significance," as I have not it studied that well.

I have to admit that you are the one man I was a bit fearful of~ in approaching this subject, because you seem so adamant at times. However, I think I see a new side to your strong words in other posts. You see, I read a great deal more than I post, especially in this Forum. I believe there is a heart of zeal and a true desire for the word of God to be revealed as we study~ in you, and I am so thankful for it! :D

Okay Vic~ Thanks brother as ever~ for your diligent task of "taking me to the mattresses" on my error. I always appreciate your desire for straight honest discussions in the word, and your ability to laugh at my foibles. Also~ may the Lord protect us from debating His precious word. :yes

Let's start with Daniel 7 in my next post. ;)

bonnie

 

[sheshisown]

Get your popcorn out, guys... here come the Futurists or dispensational View from my own words...BTW I use NKJV almost exclusively, but i am not adverse to using other versions as long as intent of the original word is not corrupted... :D

It may sound like a fantasy to some of you, but look at the text, and as Vic and Matthew say let's take the Word of God as our authority... and be mindful that we are ALL dealing with plain old human beings who will probably err. I doubt that any of us has it "down so to speak, but anywho~ here's a start on the understanding i have from the word. :shades

The first six chapters are biographical and give us the historical setting, I don’t know whether it is important to re-hash Daniel’s captivity, obedience to God, exaltation to prominence, and the foes God fought for him.

These events in Daniel's life illustrate the prophecies to come in the last half of the book, which is often the case with prophets. The prophecies of chapters 7-12 were given to Daniel during the events that are unfolded in chapters 1-6. These prophecies of Daniel deal with future events, I think we can all agree that these were at least future events to Daniel himself, and I agree that much of this book’s prophecies have already been fulfilled as we look back into history.

However, where we will likely disagree is in my view that much of the prophecies also relate to the times we are living in presently, the last days.

So I begin in chapter 7, where most expositors do, but I will be referring to previous illustrated events in the prior chapters. Chronologically, chapter 7 is inserted between chapters 4 and 5. That would be the correct historical context, between the time when Nebuchadnezzar was humbled, becoming a beast for seven years and then was restored~ and his grandson (?) Belshazzar then in chapter 5 had the kingdom taken away from him when he saw the handwriting on the wall. :eyebrow

In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon, Daniel had a dream and visions of his head while on his bed. Then he wrote down the dream, telling the main facts. Daniel 7:1

The first year of Belshazzar is obviously spoken of here BEFORE the kingdom was taken away from him. He had just ascended to the throne… and this was WHEN Daniel had this vision from God.

It is a survey of "five" world Empires. :eyebrow

Daniel spoke, saying, “I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the Great Sea. And four great beasts came up from the sea, each different from the other.†The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings. I watched till its wings were plucked off; and it was lifted up from the earth and made to stand on two feet like a man, and a man's heart was given to it. And suddenly another beast, a second, like a bear. It was raised up on one side, and had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. And they said thus to it: "Arise, devour much flesh!" After this I looked, and there was another, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird. The beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it. Daniel 7:2-6 NKJV

This prophecy is giving us another view of Daniel chapter 2, it is like seeing underneath the proper outward human ideals of the world Empire’s to their inner workings of their evil power. :nod

In Daniel chapter 2 Daniel basically says to the King of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar, as he interprets his dream~ this represents the history of the world prophetically, as it relates to the nation Israel. He tells the King, you are the “head of gold†in your dream. The most powerful Empire and the most powerful king in history was Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. And his kingdom is followed by the “two arms of silver†the Medes and Persians, who overthrew the Babylonians in Belshazzar’s reign.

That Empire was next overthrown by the “belly of brass†which is the Grecian Empire historically, and the Greeks were overthrown by the “legs of iron†the Roman Empire~ the two legs are representative of the Eastern and Western aspects of that Empire.

I just finished studying these Empires and their succession two semesters ago in my history class, though of course no Biblical references were made, I looked for these Empires in my history books, they are named differently and are more segmented by human historians, however, these are basically the historical pattern. Besides, I would much rather believe what God has revealed about the past, than what human historians do. I found a constant subtracting and adding to actual history in their secular accounts. The Mayflower Compact, for instance, never includes its entire text, because the people who founded America made promises to the Lord in it which is no longer acceptable to most statesmen and leaders today. Never mind that the framework of our Constitution has been gerrymandered into a new document through constant re-interpretation over the decades.

Back to expounding the text…

Then at the end of the legs there extend the “ten toes†a mixture of clay and iron, which represent a ten nation federation or Empire of the last days. These are ten nations coming together OUT OF the old Roman Empire. In the days of the Roman Empire Israel was destroyed as a nation, in 70 AD. But the Futurists View sees it’s revival in 1948 April 14th, the day Israel became a nation once again; which has never happened in all history previously to any nation. In the days when Israel was birthed, a new Federation of nations began to develop in 1950. Though there were only six countries in Europe uniting then but they called themselves the “Big Ten†in those days. This reveals they have always planned a Ten Nation Federation. :yes

Now the reason I see these two prophesies compared is also because the first in chapter 2 was out of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream. That is a representation of world history by the ideals of humanity. Gold, silver, brass, iron and clay, this is how mankind exalts his view of human history, making humans look good though their designs and purposes are truly evil, beastly. Just as God reveals as He now describes history in His terms. God is not impressed; these governments are not orderly to Him as mankind sees them. God views these Empires as dangerous and beastly. :shocked!

The Great Sea (here in 7:1) is probably the Mediterranean Sea around which these nations sprang up. The national emblem of Babylon (established in many archeological finds) is the lion with wings. The wings being lifted off it, and the lion emblem being lifted off the earth was God’s revelation to Daniel of what was to happen to Nebuchadnezzar, because of the pride of his heart, God humbled him, and he became a beast… then he turned to the Lord and humbled himself and was given a new heart. This is a picture of what happened in chapter 2.

If humanity will not walk humbly before God, they will crawl in humiliation… :o

After him is a bear standing up on one side first, the Medes first stood up and then the Persians with them to defeat Babylon, together they formed an army of 2 and ½ men. Considering how a massive army traveled in that time, their forces lumbered along like a great bear. The three ribs in the mouth of the Medeo-Persians history tells us are the three kingdoms they chewed up…at their beginning; the Babylonians, the Egyptians, and the Lydians.

Next, the leopard is Alexander the Great, who was the original guerilla fighter, he moved quickly and struck strategically conquering the Medes and the Persians Empire. At the battle of Thermopolis he faced at least 1 million Medes and Persians~ and with his 35,000 panzer troops he moved so fast they could not predict where he would strike them next and defeated them. "The panthers were quicker than the bears." He had four generals who kept his troops moving, and once he died at only 33, they became the “four heads†of his Empire. The kingdom was then split into four parts.

The fourth beast is not compared to any we know of. It is a terrible brutal beast with teeth of iron and is stomping out everything in its way toward total dominion. Historically it is the Roman Empire. So what else would the ten horns relate to in Daniel chapter 2, except the ten toes? See~ this is why there are four beasts here and five Empires there, the ten Federated nations come out of the indescribable and dreadful fourth beast, the old Roman Empire.

Here is where I relate prophecy to current events... :D

Now we see the EU rising and uniting, pulling together a common currency, a common market, a common governance, a common trade, and the relaxing of tariffs, to compete with the financially powerful Asian countries around it, China, Japan and Korea (the tigers of the Pacific Rim BTW). To overcome the dominance of the oil powerful~ Muslim countries. I realize this number of Federated Nations has fluctuated over the years. However, God predicted clearly and perfectly the previous Empires, describing and detailing them for us, He will fulfill His word still.

How many countries were once a part of the Federated Nations and then pulled out? Ireland and Demark did back in 1992, but neither of these countries were part of the original Roman Empire. The EU has The European Union (EU) is an economic and political union of 27 member states, located primarily in Europe. It was established by the Treaty of Maastricht on 1 November 1993, upon the foundations of the pre-existing European Economic Community. With a population of almost 500 million, the EU generates an estimated 30% share (US dollars $18.4 trillion in 2008) of the nominal gross world product. (Wikipedia)

Not a great source, but probably less biased than many others. :yes

The path to a single market did emerge and is an absolute pre-condition to accomplish the long term European dream, a real political union that will restore Europe to its former role as a political power.
This is what the Bible is saying, ten nations will reappear, but this new Empire will not be as strong as the previous Empire it will not hold together as well as the old Roman Empire did.

Now if you want we can get into your Views at this point I will wait on your replies, and since we are not looking for a debate why don't we try to compare and offer our view in place of the other person's view. Instead of criticizing and degrading the other view. I think it is important to refute where scripture is incorrectly used. So feel free to do that, however condemnation, and judging the other person for their views will not be acceptible. :naughty

Also you may let me know if we can move on to the rest of Daniel 7.

In His light... bonnie

 

[Sinthesis]

Also you may let me know if we can move on to the rest of Daniel 7.

Please continue

 

[parousia70]

Antichrist (the name comes from various references in 1 John) is understood to be the world ruler at the end of this age before Christ's return, and thus his rule must be covered by Daniel's prophecies.

When you say "antichrist is understood to be the world ruler at the end of this age" what do you mean? Understood by whom?

You correctly cite that the name comes from 1 John (and 2 John BTW) but how or where does the Bible connect 'antichrist" of 1 & 2 John to Daniel's "Little Horn" (or Pauls "Man of Sin" or John's "Beast" for that matter)?

As many times as I read 1 & 2 John's EXPLICIT teaching on what antichrist is, I simply find no biblical instruction to apply that name to Daniel's Little Horn, Pauls "man of Sin" or John's "Beast of Revelation" as none of these figures meet the explicit requirements for antichrist spelled out quite specifically in 1 & 2 John.

So, help a brother understand.
Where is it you find the authority or instruction to apply the name antichrist to these other biblical figures?

 

[sheshisown]

:waving Sorry to be missing for a bit... I have had a summer cold. Pooey.

Okay here's where the rubber meets the road so to say, I may not do very well expalining my view but here goes nothin'.

Also~ in case you were wondering the dispensational aspects come in from each of these ages spoken of by the Lord in Daniel, I think most of you men can see where I get it, whether or not you agree with the view, hm? In this post I finish daniel 7, again NKJV and OKJV are the text referrances. :D

Daniel 7:7-8

Taking up where we were... The fourth beast was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words.

The bible tells us what happens to this ten Nation federation next.

Another little horn comes up from among the ten horns of this last Empire, horns denote power. These ten powerful nations, I believe are forming now. This little horn is synonymous with the antichrist. The explanation of who he is given to us later in the 7th chapter in verse 25;

“ And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.†b] Daniel 7:25

The Old Testament enfolds the New Testament, while the New Testament unfolds the old Testament. So we find further unfolding of this in Revelation 13:1-2

Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority.

The name antichrist is not specified, however, he is the beast here and in Daniel, and his character and blasphemy is detailed that he will do during the Tribulation. This little horn (antichrist) will emerge from among these ten nations. Then there will be a struggle for control~ because three nations will resist his authority and control over the Federation of Nations. Whether he will conquer them politically or militarily it does not say here, but we can look into it further in chapter 8. :nod

The antichrist will be the world leader, who will possess every ability men have had to lead; he will have the intellect of a Jefferson, the leadership of a Lincoln, the likability of an Eisenhower, the global strategies of a Nixon, the oratory skills of a Churchill, the iron fist of a Stalin, and the charisma of a Kennedy. This guy will have it all together, seemingly… This is the very one the world’s appetite is whetted for, in academic circles they ache for his power. :crazy

Now, he will not show up in a black cape saying, YU-AH-AH! Here I am The Antichrist! Hardly. He will present the appearance and power that the entire world is waiting for. The world is desperately looking for leadership, and looking at what kind of leaders are out there today can any of us blame them? Think of only our parents generation, there were giant men, Churchill, Moa Se Tung, Roosevelt, Stalin, (whether good or evil) these were powerful leaders. But in our generation… there are none… the stage is being set for one man to come on the scene.

But this is a good prophecy for after his evil reign is destroyed, then the Glorious kingdom of God will come~ and the saints of the Most High will receive from God the kingdom and possess it forever and ever. We keep this truth always in mind~ our enemy will be overcome, done away with, and cast into the burning flame. This is very visually and powerfully described for us.
"Then I wished to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its nails of bronze, which devoured, broke in pieces, and trampled the residue with its feet;
Daniel sought from God the truth about the fourth beast. Hitler’s oratory skills could mesmerize and hypnotize an entire nation. But antichrist will make Hitler look like a High School debater.
:D
On a side note: Vic~ on that study of the word persecution, this reference is not using that word, though many refer to it to confirm that believers today, will necessarily go through the Tribulation period. This word is Pael, meaning and written as “wear out†in the OKJV. An interesting note is that this is the single time it appears in the bible. Blue Letter Bible reference notes;
Strong's Number H1080 matches the Hebrew בלנ(bĕla' (Aramaic)), which occurs 1 time in 1 verse in the Hebrew concordance of the KJV. (Pael) to wear away, wear out. maybe you have a better explanation for wear out that proves this is persecution?

So who are these saints that the antichrist will wear out?

Revelation unfolds all of these truths more fully, Daniel is the foundation~ Revelation is the expansion.
These saints are spoken of in Revelation chapter 13: to see who the antichrist is warring against we go to Rev. 12:13-14
Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. (Chapter 12 verse 13)

Without going into detail the woman is the nation Israel, chapter 12 makes that very clear from a contextual standpoint, as long as “our†interpretation does not allegorize or symbolize the word here. Even though these descriptions are symbolic in the naming of entities, it is not an allegory nor is it entirely symbolic. Therefore, the dragon is Satan, (also cited under this name in several other texts BTW). No other person, creation if you prefer, is named the dragon in scripture, except Satan. He is cast out of heaven and he persecutes the Nation who gave birth to Jesus Christ. Isreal.

But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. (Verse 14)

In biblical terminology a time is one year; times are two years; and a half time is half a year, thus 3 ½ years. This is the mid-point of the Tribulation when suddenly antichrist wages war against Israel, half way through the tribulation period. At first all the people including Israel are amazed by this man of peace who speaks great words, full of good-sounding ideals. However, his real identity will be seen as he turns his violent hatred against Israel. But as Satan through antichrist moves to destroy Israel the Lord protects them.

And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
But also the true seed of Israel, those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ will suffer persecution by the antichrist. Notice the beast here, referring back to Daniel 7, the Holy Spirit is correlating the two passages together for us. Hopefully, the evidence I have offered that Daniel refers to antichrist is clear enough.

He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time. Daniel 7:25 again

What does the bible mean when it refers to antichrist intending to change the times and the laws? Did you know that they tried that once before? During the French revolution in 1792, the revolutionaries sought to make a new week~ 10 days long. The reason they tried this was to remove the religious inferences in each week, month, and year that the church had instituted. They were trying to erase the calendar reminders of God. Perhaps that is what antichrist will do, only in a more successful way. He knows he’s going into the Lake of fire, He knows that he has only a limited time… maybe he is trying to confuse humanity so they will not count down the days to his end ? I don’t know about you guys, but I am so glad that we will be rid of him, that old liar, accuser, deceiver. Thank you~ Jesus Christ!

Then the kingdom and dominion, And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.' Daniel 7:27
When will we learn this truth, and how awesome and wonderful it truly will be. What will it be like? Wars will stop~ spears will become tools that we prune trees with.

Written on the United Nations building is this verse from Isaiah 2:4
But they neglected to include the first sentence in that verse; He shall judge between the nations, And rebuke many people;

That is when nation will no longer rise up against nation, when true peace will come, after He~ the Judge of all humanity brings His righteous Judgment on the nations, and AFTER He rebukes many people. We cannot expect the UN to bring this peace, though it seems that men today (just as in Jesus time) are just as zealous for the reign of peace. These verses prove again, that humanities attempts at government are at “best†in the Lord’s estimation… BEASTIAL! What does a beast do? He angers easily. He guards his territory ferociously, he sheds blood mercilessly. No group of bears ever marched to save the rabbits, leapords are not worried about the deer they eat them! Beasts expand their territory whenever possible, they take whatever they can.

Not by the UN or any political party, or the devises of man will ever “learn war no more,†until we have all come under the Person of Jesus Christ’s authority, He will judge, that is the key. That is the proof and assurance of peace.

In Daniel 7 God is saying mankind’s thinking that he can usher in a new age of tranquility and peace~ is a joke. Prime Time TV is now Shock Time TV. Gruesome imagery, the evil imaginations of humanity run rampant there and on the Net. Sexual deviations are not only allowed, they are rejoiced in, and flagrantly depicted to call others into their evil snare. The media is only pandering to the appetites for more sex, blood, and gore. Standards are no longer loosening, they are completely untied on Cable TV, and in any medium that is rated “adultâ€Â. The majority of Americans sit at home and grab for every gory detail of murder rape and incest they can get. In Europe~ an adult is as young as 13 years old. What were you like at 13? Could you say you were an adult? Beasts, simply honestly beasts.

In Disneyland they used to have a ride called the GE World of Progress. If you rode it~ you may still remember the song. There’s a Great Big Beautiful Tomorrow… shining at the end of every day, there’s a great big beautiful tomorrow…

The bible says, not so, not true… and our newspapers say, not so, not true. Things are gone beyond weird! But we can be like the frog placed in a pan of water, if you very slowly heat it up, the frog will never jump out, he will get boiled to death. That can happen to people. Have you seen the movie, Time Changers? It’s about a Christian man who comes into our age from the turn of the century and is horrified at what he finds outside and “inside†the church. We may not really notice it~ we may be supporting it~ buying it. There were 1.5 million babies killed again last year. The morning after pill aborts any new fetus the next morning after it is conceived. Roe vs Wade is not really an issue anymore, we cannot even count our murders. But God does and God will judge.

Let’s face it~ human governments are beastly. Jesus will return and Judge, and change it all.

I am sure my work here is incomplete, and you can add your fuller expounding of this text. :yes Again, if you disagree, do so with the word too, as I have.

The Lord bless you men as you study His word…

In Christ our solid rock… bonnie

 

[turnorburn]

Reading these posts is like being on a merry go round, ever learning and not able to come to the knowledge of truth..

I John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. 29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

 

[sheshisown]

Turn~

I can't say I understand your response, but I can say that if reading the posts is dissying you, you are certainly allowed to get off the merry-go-round... I won't stop you.

Do you have something more constructive to say, perhaps edifying or challenging?

bonnie :nod

 

[MMarc]

Usually dispensation is related to the dispensation of the law.

When Jesus fulfilled Passover the dispensation of the law changed so anyone could receive the Holy Spirit by coming to Jesus. They become reconciled with the Father on earth.

Jesus left to go to heaven, so the end time feast could only be fulfilled in Spirit, in Heaven. Jesus must fulfill Atonement in Heaven so that we may be reconciled with the Father in Heaven....

Those of first resurrection will rise first and not know the second death, (death of the soul).

Afterwords all those who are alive will never die (souls).

 

[sheshisown]

Hi MMarc~

Dispensation of the law is one of the dispensations from my prespective. God gave the Jews the law, and said do the law and be blessed, or do not the law and be cursed.

Then as you noted Jesus came, and fulfilled the law by offering the dispensation (or dispensing of God's grace) as the way of blessing. Now we believe and are blessed, those who do not believe are cursed.

bonnie :D

 

[Sparkey]

... [truncated for the sake of brevity and colored for emphasis

• by Sparrowhawke]

So who are these saints that the antichrist will wear out?

Revelation unfolds all of these truths more fully, Daniel is the foundation~ Revelation is the expansion.
These saints are spoken of in Revelation chapter 13: to see who the antichrist is warring against we go to Rev. 12:13-14
Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. (Chapter 12 verse 13)

• Without going into detail the woman is the nation Israel, chapter 12 makes that very clear from a contextual standpoint, as long as “our†interpretation does not allegorize or symbolize the word here. Even though these descriptions are symbolic in the naming of entities, it is not an allegory nor is it entirely symbolic. Therefore, the dragon is Satan, (also cited under this name in several other texts BTW). No other person, creation if you prefer, is named the dragon in scripture, except Satan. He is cast out of heaven and he persecutes the Nation who gave birth to Jesus Christ. Isreal.

But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. (Verse 14)

In biblical terminology a time is one year; times are two years; and a half time is half a year, thus 3 ½ years. This is the mid-point of the Tribulation when suddenly antichrist wages war against Israel, half way through the tribulation period. At first all the people including Israel are amazed by this man of peace who speaks great words, full of good-sounding ideals. However, his real identity will be seen as he turns his violent hatred against Israel. But as Satan through antichrist moves to destroy Israel the Lord protects them.

And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
But also the true seed of Israel, those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ will suffer persecution by the antichrist. Notice the beast here, referring back to Daniel 7, the Holy Spirit is correlating the two passages together for us. Hopefully, the evidence I have offered that Daniel refers to antichrist is clear enough.

He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time. Daniel 7:25 again
...
The Lord bless you men as you study His word…

In Christ our solid rock… bonnie

-----Do I understand you to state that the "male child" spoken of in Rev 12:5 refers to the "first coming" of Jesus? Do you mean that the "National Israel" you reference as "the woman" was Israel at the time of the birth of Christ Jesus? Here is the "context" you state makes your view "very clear":

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.

And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.

Without going into detail the woman is the nation Israel, chapter 12 makes that very clear from a contextual standpoint, as long as “our†interpretation does not allegorize or symbolize the word here.

We don't need to go into [great] detail nor do we need our interpretation to use allegory nor symbols other than what the clear text indicates.

From the context alone:

• (Rev 12:1) we see "a woman" who "appeared in heaven". [/*:m:345xfite]
• (Rev 12:2) She was in travail and about to give birth.[/*:m:345xfite]
• (Rev 12:4) The dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.[/*:m:345xfite]
• (Rev 12:5) The male child was born and "caught up" (Greek: á¼ÂÃÂÀάζÉ, Transliteration: harpazÃ…Â)[/*:m:345xfite]
• (Rev 12:6) The "woman" fled into the wilderness[/*:m:345xfite]

Can we really think that Israel (at the time of the birth of Jesus) was "the woman" spoken of in Rev 12? If so, kindly explain what it means when we see Satan standing before her ready to devour Jesus. Can you detail through hindsight how the "Israel" of our past was seen to have fled into the wilderness? I can not understand what you mean here.

Turning back to Revelation we must take note of the references both to time and location. Please pay due attention to the locations mentioned in Rev 12:12 [quoted below] as well as the time reference, "he knoweth that he hath but a short time".

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Therefore rejoice, [ye] heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man [child].

In conclusion (and again for the sake of brevity) it seems that "the woman" appeared in heaven and it seems a stretch to me to say that "she" was "national Israel" at the time of the birth of Jesus. Is there no other possibility that we can consider? Three questions then:

Why does Paul make a distinction between the "Jerusalem which now is" and "the Jerusalem which is above" (who is the "mother" of us all) in Galatians 4:26?

How does this view correlate to the teaching of Jesus in John Chapter 16? <especially John 16:21>

Could the prophecy found in Isaiah 66:6-9 have anything to do with our subject according to your view?


Bonnie, thank you for your consideration, I eagerly await your reply.

Cordially yours,
~Sparrowhawke

 

[sheshisown]

:waving Sparrow~

Revelation chapter 12

~Chapters 6-19 tell of an unparalleled time of terrible tribulation. In God’s necessary (I believe) and merciful judgment is extended and poured out in order to wake people up who desire to SEE in order to believe. Chapter twelve seems to be one of the most allegorized and symbolized scriptures in these days.

~Meanwhile we (those who look for His appearing) are in heaven on a holy honeymoon with our Lord and Savior.

~This coming world leader will surface and demand to be worshipped as God. But this first relates to the devil himself.

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

~Who is this woman? Revelation is chocked full of Old Testament allusions. Of the 404 verses~ 287 of them, almost 70%... are direct allusions to Old Testament scriptures. This is probably no surprise for you, who have studied the Old Testament so diligently. So, of course we both know, the best commentary on the Bible is the Bible. So when we wonder about any “wonder†in the word we can look into the word to help us understand it. John knew the people he was writing to would have a good grasp on Old Testament scriptures. :yes

~Going on, John speaks of a wonder. Not a symbol, not an allegory, yet not an actual real appearance of something either… because he calls it a great wonder. Or as David Guzik so well explains it… a sign:

This is the first of seven wonders that John relates in the book of Revelation.
1. The woman, representing Israel
2. The dragon, representing Satan
3. The man-child, referring to Jesus
4. The angel Michael, head of the angelic host
5. The offspring of the woman, representing Gentiles who come to faith during the Tribulation
6. The beast out of the sea, representing the antichrist
7. The beast out of the earth, representing the false prophet who promotes the
antichrist(David Guzik from Enduring Word.com) see -
http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/6612.htm

~So these wonders are not physical from my understanding of them but immaterial. I prefer to use a grammatical term in explaining this wonder as a personification. This woman is a personification of the nation Israel. These personifications are given to us by God, so we can understand how to relate them in His revelation of future end times. Israel in the Old Testament is called the wife of Jehovah. AND Israel is referred to as in travail over and over again in the Old testament too!

And Moses told his father in law all that the LORD had done unto Pharaoh and to the Egyptians for Israel's sake, and all the travail that had come upon them by the way, and how the LORD delivered them. Genesis 38:27

And Moses sent messengers from Kadesh unto the king of Edom, Thus saith thy brother Israel, Thou knowest all the travail that hath befallen us: Numbers 20:14

~And again…

For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewaileth herself, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers. Jeremiah

They shall lay hold on bow and spear; they are cruel, and have no mercy; their voice roareth like the sea; and they ride upon horses, set in array as men for war against thee, O daughter of Zion. We have heard the fame thereof: our hands wax feeble: anguish hath taken hold of us, and pain, as of a woman in travail. Jeremiah 6:23-24

~ From my estimation, the scriptures “overwhelmingly†point to Israel as the woman in travail… In this next verse Jesus Christ is also in travail, as a member of Israel in linage and the nations soon coming Glorious Head, this cinches the judgment for me.
He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Isaiah 54:1

~ If some may say this is only an Old Testament witness let’s look into the New Testament as well…

For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 1 Thessalonians 5:3

~ Our brother Paul, a Jew, speaks of his travail…

Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you: 2 Thessalonians 3:8

~Further, I see this woman is a personification of religion. You Sparrow, have eyes to see that the Bride is personified as the church throughout the word of God. :yes The Bride represents the church in Revelation 19:7+8 again. Perhaps you can also see my logical connection to the woman here as Israel, who are a people set apart for God, Israel has always been a religion first as well as a nation.

~Along these same lines of reasoning, Jezebel in 2:20 of Revelation is a personification of religious false teaching. Last, I logically associate the Great Harlot as a personification of false religion in Revelation 17:2.

~I am simply using a few of the tools I gained in my recent education. Studying proper grammatical references in the word have helped me a great deal to understand that the Holy Spirit is simply using the various forms of accepted grammar rules which humans have always written in.

~Why oh why would God hide from His people the very truths of these perilous last days in shadows and allegories<as so many say> ? I think not. The Heavenly Father we both know and adore is not like that, at least I think not. . .

~Also, instead of re-inventing the wheel so to speak~ in looking for MORE evidence of Israel referred as a woman, I have gleaned from David Guzik’ more thorough studies of this subject;

In other Old Testament passages, Israel (or Zion or Jerusalem) is often represented as a woman (Isaiah 54:1-6, Jeremiah 3:20, Ezekiel 16:8-14, and Hosea 2:19-20). (Guzik) <same website above>

~So this woman is described as clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, with a crown of 12 stars on her head, and she is travailing in birth… We can recall the story of Joseph’s dream in Genesis 37. Now his father was renamed Israel by God, and in Joseph’s dream Israel is the sun, and his mother Rachel, is the moon, and his brothers are the eleven stars he sees. Here we have the sun and the moon and now~ twelve stars. Yet we are able to see that Joseph is included here in the twelve sons who became the twelve tribes of Israel ~ so of course there are twelve stars in this wonder. . .

Genesis 37:9+10 Then he dreamed still another dream and told it to his brothers, and said, "Look, I have dreamed another dream. And this time, the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars bowed down to me."And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?

~It is obvious that Israel, Joseph’ father, understood this dream to allude to their own families, which were then the only members of the nation to come.

~ So in this revealed scripture we see Israel in her travailing bringing forth a son. Now who might this son be? Look at verse 5, the lord tells us.

And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. Revelation 12:5

Who is this man, male child, who will surely RULE the world with a rod of iron? Look at Psalm 2: He is none other than Jesus. Who else was snatched or raptured up to His Fathers throne? Jesus, Jesus, Jesus…

Now the plot thickens ~ but I must turn to this study tomorrow when I have more time to do so… until then~ the Lord our Gracious Redeemer bless and keep you Sparrow~ keep and protect and guide you with His awesome Eye! May He grant you rest and may He work in you mightily all His wonders to perform! May he grant you His speed in all His will and works to perform for His marvelous name in you. I say~ Yes even so~ and amen!

In His light~ Bonnie

 

[Sparkey]

:waving Sparrow~

Revelation chapter 12

~Chapters 6-19 tell of an unparalleled time of terrible tribulation. In God’s necessary (I believe) and merciful judgment is extended and poured out in order to wake people up who desire to SEE in order to believe. Chapter twelve seems to be one of the most allegorized and symbolized scriptures in these days.

• [list:2yiwrmtw]
  If we insist on not using allegory or symbols and at the same time insist that the man-child is Jesus being born - the only "woman" who this could possible be would be his mother, Mary.

[/list:u:2yiwrmtw]

~Meanwhile we (those who look for His appearing) are in heaven on a holy honeymoon with our Lord and Savior.

• [list:2yiwrmtw]Can you show me this chronology in the Bible, please? Not that I don't want to take your word for it, but I'd rather see it for myself. Are "we" really in heaven at the time of the birth of Jesus?

[/list:u:2yiwrmtw]

~This coming world leader will surface and demand to be worshipped as God. But this first relates to the devil himself.

• [list:2yiwrmtw]
  Wait! I must have misunderstood you. Pardon me, you mean that the woman spoken of in Rev 12:5 appears in heaven at the time (or the approximate time) that the Antichrist comes, right? You're saying that we will have already been taken - snatched up and raptured, right?

[/list:u:2yiwrmtw]

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

~Going on, John speaks of a wonder. Not a symbol, not an allegory, yet not an actual real appearance of something either… because he calls it a great wonder. Or as David Guzik so well explains it… a sign:

This is the first of seven wonders that John relates in the book of Revelation.
1. The woman, representing Israel
2. The dragon, representing Satan
3. The man-child, referring to Jesus

• [list:2yiwrmtw] I can't agree that this "man-child" is in reference to Jesus at the time of His birth. I've asked how you arrive at this conclusion before. Is it because the man-child is said to "rule with a rod of iron"? Or is there more? Frankly, I came from a Catholic background and am surprised to hear their teaching in your mouth. This is exactly the image they give when they deify Mary and describe her as the "Queen of Heaven." I'll need more than your statement to support this.

[/list:u:2yiwrmtw]

4. The angel Michael, head of the angelic host
5. The offspring of the woman, representing Gentiles who come to faith during the Tribulation
6. The beast out of the sea, representing the antichrist
7. The beast out of the earth, representing the false prophet who promotes the
antichrist(David Guzik from Enduring Word.com) see -
http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/6612.htm

~So these wonders are not physical from my understanding of them but immaterial. I prefer to use a grammatical term in explaining this wonder as a personification. This woman is a personification of the nation Israel. These personifications are given to us by God, so we can understand how to relate them in His revelation of future end times. Israel in the Old Testament is called the wife of Jehovah. AND Israel is referred to as in travail over and over again in the Old testament too!

• [list:2yiwrmtw]I would suggest that you look at each of those Scriptures where Israel is referred to in the Old Testament as in travail (over and over) with the idea of seeing what she is trying to bring forth. Did Israel indeed bring forth Jesus? Or was He sent by God to the lost sheep (Israel)? It is not my preference to force all OT scriptures to mean merely OT times. Yes, there are many prophecies of Jesus there, but there are also many that are still for a time to come <but then, you don't need me to instruct you on this>.

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And Moses told his father in law all that the LORD had done unto Pharaoh and to the Egyptians for Israel's sake, and all the travail that had come upon them by the way, and how the LORD delivered them. Genesis 38:27

And Moses sent messengers from Kadesh unto the king of Edom, Thus saith thy brother Israel, Thou knowest all the travail that hath befallen us: Numbers 20:14

~And again…

For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewaileth herself, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers. Jeremiah

They shall lay hold on bow and spear; they are cruel, and have no mercy; their voice roareth like the sea; and they ride upon horses, set in array as men for war against thee, O daughter of Zion. We have heard the fame thereof: our hands wax feeble: anguish hath taken hold of us, and pain, as of a woman in travail. Jeremiah 6:23-24

~ From my estimation, the scriptures “overwhelmingly†point to Israel as the woman in travail… In this next verse Jesus Christ is also in travail, as a member of Israel in linage and the nations soon coming Glorious Head, this cinches the judgment for me.
He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Isaiah 54:1

~ If some may say this is only an Old Testament witness let’s look into the New Testament as well…

For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 1 Thessalonians 5:3

• [list:2yiwrmtw]Good find there. So, can we not look at the Bible to determine the timeframe for this time of travail you speak of, or must we ignore it? The time spoken of is when they shall say, "Peace and safety". You already know and don't need me to teach you that not every mention of the word "travail" is in reference to "the woman" spoken of in Rev 12.

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~ Our brother Paul, a Jew, speaks of his travail…

Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you: 2 Thessalonians 3:8

• [list:2yiwrmtw]Yes indeed, Paul was a Jew and spoke of his travail. The word is being used to mean any work, and rightly so because "man's work" by the sweat of his brow and "woman's work" to bring forth children with difficulty and pain were both shown from the beginning -- yet one must consider that there is a difference between the labor mentioned here and a "woman in labor," right? Even so, Paul rightly included himself in the "travail" of 'the woman" (IMO). I would also include you, Bonnie, as one who is working toward the benefit and result we all hope for. As you strive to become more like the woman seen in Psalms 32 (or is that Proverbs 31? -inside joke), you are becoming more like her.
  
  I would agree with your statement that "Our brother Paul, a Jew, speaks of his travail… "
  Would you agree that this travail spoken of happened AFTER the physical birth of Jesus?

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~Further, I see this woman is a personification of religion. You Sparrow, have eyes to see that the Bride is personified as the church throughout the word of God. :yes The Bride represents the church in Revelation 19:7+8 again. Perhaps you can also see my logical connection to the woman here as Israel, who are a people set apart for God, Israel has always been a religion first as well as a nation.

• [list:2yiwrmtw]I have no problem with your belief that we (both Jew and Gentile) are called to the same place, but rather it is your insistence that "the woman" spoken of in Rev 12:5 is "National Israel" at the time of the birth of Jesus. When you say that our Christ is being born there, you refuse to see that He is being born in us is even now. If "the woman" who was actually seen in heaven as a sign is as you say, it follows that "her travail" is the suffering that came when Rome tore down the Temple. This simply can not be. What birthing process do you know of brings the travail AFTER the birth? Jesus directly states that immediately after the birth the pain of birth is forgotten because of the Joy.

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~Along these same lines of reasoning, Jezebel in 2:20 of Revelation is a personification of religious false teaching. Last, I logically associate the Great Harlot as a personification of false religion in Revelation 17:2.

• [list:2yiwrmtw]Agreed. If you wish to use the word "personification" and don't like the words "allegory" or "type" or "symbol", fine.

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~I am simply using a few of the tools I gained in my recent education. Studying proper grammatical references in the word have helped me a great deal to understand that the Holy Spirit is simply using the various forms of accepted grammar rules which humans have always written in.

~Why oh why would God hide from His people the very truths of these perilous last days in shadows and allegories<as so many say> ? I think not. The Heavenly Father we both know and adore is not like that, at least I think not. . .

~Also, instead of re-inventing the wheel so to speak~ in looking for MORE evidence of Israel referred as a woman, I have gleaned from David Guzik’ more thorough studies of this subject;

• [list:2yiwrmtw]Perhaps you misunderstand me. Again, I have no problem seeing "the woman" spoken of in Rev 12:5 as a group of people, be that Israel (who at that TIME will be both Jew and Gentile) or as "National Israel" as you say. Can we agree that "she" is the church (perhaps Hebrew only? I don't prefer this interpretation but at least it has a consistent timeframe) or must we insist that this is only in reference to Jesus being born, hence 2,000+ years ago?

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In other Old Testament passages, Israel (or Zion or Jerusalem) is often represented as a woman (Isaiah 54:1-6, Jeremiah 3:20, Ezekiel 16:8-14, and Hosea 2:19-20). (Guzik) <same website above>

~So this woman is described as clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, with a crown of 12 stars on her head, and she is travailing in birth… We can recall the story of Joseph’s dream in Genesis 37. Now his father was renamed Israel by God, and in Joseph’s dream Israel is the sun, and his mother Rachel, is the moon, and his brothers are the eleven stars he sees. Here we have the sun and the moon and now~ twelve stars. Yet we are able to see that Joseph is included here in the twelve sons who became the twelve tribes of Israel ~ so of course there are twelve stars in this wonder. . .

Genesis 37:9+10 Then he dreamed still another dream and told it to his brothers, and said, "Look, I have dreamed another dream. And this time, the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars bowed down to me."And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?

~It is obvious that Israel, Joseph’ father, understood this dream to allude to their own families, which were then the only members of the nation to come.

• [list:2yiwrmtw]Paul knows these Scriptures also and concluded that there is now no difference between Gentile and Jew. We simply can not insist that the work of the Holy Spirit at the time of Pentecost had no effect.

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~ So in this revealed scripture we see Israel in her travailing bringing forth a son. Now who might this son be? Look at verse 5, the lord tells us.

And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. Revelation 12:5

Who is this man, male child, who will surely RULE the world with a rod of iron? Look at Psalm 2: He is none other than Jesus. Who else was snatched or raptured up to His Fathers throne? Jesus, Jesus, Jesus…

• [list:2yiwrmtw]Now wait just a second here. I thought that there was "somebody else" that is to be raptured. Do you now insist that only Jesus was raptured? May I ask if your insistence leads you to believe that Jesus was born and "caught up" (Greek: á¼ÂÃÂÀάζÉ, Transliteration: harpazÃ…Â), or was He taken up in the clouds?

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Now the plot thickens ~ but I must turn to this study tomorrow when I have more time to do so… until then~ the Lord our Gracious Redeemer bless and keep you Sparrow~ keep and protect and guide you with His awesome Eye! May He grant you rest and may He work in you mightily all His wonders to perform! May he grant you His speed in all His will and works to perform for His marvelous name in you. I say~ Yes even so~ and amen!

In His light~ Bonnie

Thank you for this, Bonnie. I'm sure you know that I really mean it. We seem to disagree buy you know that I love you. When you come back tomorrow I'll trust that you bring Scripture to address our difference in opinion so that I can be corrected. In the meantime and as I am fond of doing, please allow me to say "Amen" to your prayer and ask that the Lord reflect it into your heart and life also:

That the Lord our Gracious Redeemer bless and keep you, Bonnie~ keep and protect and guide you with His awesome Eye! May He grant you rest and may He work in you mightily all His wonders to perform! May he grant you His speed in all His will and works to perform for His marvelous name in you. I also say~ Yes even so~ and amen!

I would also ask:
"LORD, thou wilt ordain Peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us." (Isa 26:12) And that the Lord be gracious to you (as He has ever been) to grant you the desires of your heart.


Yours always,
Mike

 

[Sparkey]

Bonnie, if you plan on bringing the 70 week prophecy of Daniel into this I would ask you to first address the issues that have been raised in my past posts. I will grant that there is an "interruption" seen in the 70 week prophecy but unless we can definitively show that this means that Satan was standing and ready to devour Jesus at the time of his birth -AND- that Israel was "the woman" who gave birth to Jesus (how could that be?) and that "she" fled into the wilderness -And- that there is an unmentioned 2,000+ year gap found between Rev 12:5 and Rev 12:6 I would ask you to wait and not go further while we explore the issues at hand.

We do see in Daniel that "the Messiah is cut off". This says nothing about the timeframe mentioned in Rev 12 (unless you can show something I've not seen -that's always possible). Still, we know that Satan has access to heaven from reading the book of Job. We see in Rev 12:9 that he and his angels were cast out of heaven (finally). This (the war in heaven) appears right after the woman fled into the wilderness for a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days. Revelation establishes a definitive timeframe for us here. Some may wish to -- but we may not(!) interpret the Word of Truth so that very specific timeframes are abolished without conclusive proof.

Can we as believers think that the accuser of the brethren is no longer allowed to accuse us in heaven?
Revelation clearly shows a chronology and sequence of events. Each scroll that opens is shown to be consecutive, one following another, a running progression. Each vial also is shown one to follow the other in succession. When we interrupt that process and insert amongst all the "consecutive events" a single reference to a past event, it is confusing to me to say the least.

Rev 12:5-7 KJV - And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels...

So then again, for the sake of clarity - please endeavor to respond to the serious problems that have been raised with your explanation before continuing further.

• I would agree with your statement that "Our brother Paul, a Jew, speaks of his travail… "
  Would you agree that this travail spoken of happened AFTER the physical birth of Jesus?

Must we ignore those things that nature itself teaches (that pain precedes childbirth and JOY follows the birth as Jesus also taught in John 16) and think otherwise? Why? Has not the Bible taught us that all creation is in travail? To what end?

You've asked that we look at Psalm 2, I've asked that we look at the teaching of Jesus in Gospel of John, chapter 16. Psalm 2 it is then:

Psa 2:8-10 KJV - Ask of Me, and I shall give [thee] the heathen [for] thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth [for] thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

Are we being wise to think that we've already inherited the heathen as our possession or is this still some future event?

If the church is clearly seen in so many places as "the bride" and Jesus is seen as "the husband" how can we then believe that the fruit of this union is the first coming of Christ? How can "the woman" (IF "she" is backslidden Israel) be seen to have brought forth Christ while His disciples were told to wait 50 days after His resurrection for the baptism and power of the Holy Spirit? Perhaps this is the essence of my error (for I prefer to see myself <if true according to Scripture> as the one in error). I would rather prove you right (if possible) and find myself corrected, in any case though - my thanks again are offered both to you and to our Lord for your continued striving toward the good in me.

Cordially,
~Sparrowhawke