sheshisown
Member
Hi Sparrow~
:D
Golly it looks like I have puzzled you rather than edify you.
That was not my intent at all, and I can TRY to explain these understandings of mine a bit better. However, I do not think I have any great theological wisdom or theory here. My knowledge of the end times is somewhat simple, like most of my knowledge of the word.
I cannot profess any ability to persuade anyone. What I am offering is a certainty and a hope in myself that may help guide another into truth. As I have often said, I do not think end times theology <what we believe about the end times> can make or break the faith of a Christian. However, I do believe that what we believe in anything… <but especially in these last days scenarios> will affect the WAY we live. :yes
So let me try to address a few of you first questions, those I do not think I can attempt I will not touch, rather I will allow you to glean understanding from another better equipped than I am.
Sparrow wrote;
I ...think... I answered this ~ I can certainly re-state what I said, and maybe embellish it.
~These wonders spoken of by John, are not physical from my understanding of them but immaterial… rather than use the word “sign†as many do~ and ten is taken as a symbolic type of sign, rather than a visual appearance. I prefer to use a grammatical term in explaining this wonder as a personification. This is an image drawn… not an actual occurrence at all. This “woman†is a personification of the nation Israel. As I noted and gave references for Israel is personified as a woman, as the wife of Jehovah, and as the “woman in travail… All the scriptures I found are listed in my post above~ which show this to be so.
I cannot say why it is difficult to see that God is referring to this truth about the Lord Jesus’ birth and the travail of His people Israel, and taking the dream of Joseph, who is a wonderful “TYPE†of Christ in the Old Testament, to re-state the relationship of His people Israel to Himself. Especially just before their greatest trials will ensue. . . I have often seen Him do this in the word, bringing an affirmation to those He loves prior to their testing.
Sparrow wrote;
You already know and don't need me to teach you that not every mention of the word "travail" is in reference to "the woman" spoken of in Rev 12.
And…
I would suggest that you look at each of those Scriptures where Israel is referred to in the Old Testament as in travail (over and over) with the idea of seeing what she is trying to bring forth. Did Israel indeed bring forth Jesus? Or was He sent by God to the lost sheep (Israel)?
I have “simply†looked into the word of God to see where the Holy Spirit used this phrase [woman in travail] to see who the Lord is speaking of here, it really is that simple. For the woman to be Mary, the mother of Jesus would infer, that God is not speaking of the spiritual incarnation of Christ ~ but is merely speaking of who gave birth to him physically. I do not think we can suppose that God would use a GREAT WONDER to describe Mary. The Catholic use of Mary is not well known to me. Sorry, I was not brought us in any church; I was reared as a pagan.
So, no, I would not be professing that Mary is any Queen of anything, let alone of heaven, in which the Godhead is referred to as MALE by the word.
My scriptures given showing the travailing woman and the other references that I also made~~~ Point to the pattern by which God refers to religious systems as female: The Bride of Christ, The wife of Jehovah, the Jezebel of False Teaching, and the Great Harlot of the False religion upon the earth during the tribulation. All of these show me~ that the Holy Spirit is using the woman in travail giving birth to Christ as HIS own people ~ His children.
During the tribulation God is working out the completion of His plan for Israel. He is fulfilling His promises to them made throughout their history with Him.
Sparrow wrote;
Did Israel indeed bring forth Jesus? Or was He sent by God to the lost sheep (Israel)?
Yes, Israel brought forth Jesus Christ. In order for God to bring the incarnate Son of God into this world to save it, He had to have a woman, yes… But God required much more than we might, He required a nation that He called His own children in which to instil His truth. The law and the Prophets came through Israel. So did the Messiah. :yes
By greater and greater revelation God made Himself manifest to all the world, first~ through a single man, Abraham. Then~ through a family, Jacob AKA Israel. Then through a nation. And Finally through the GREATEST revelation of all, His own Son… who was the image of the Father.
Sparrow wrote;
So, can we not look at the Bible to determine the timeframe for this time of travail you speak of, or must we ignore it? The time spoken of is when they shall say, "Peace and safety"
If you wish to look into the time frame… that would be another side issue. Of course you may, however that does not allow us to track with this particular scripture that we are discussing. However, if you want to ~ okay. However, I may not be so able to join in very much, as my understanding of the timing is bound up in many “otherâ€Âscriptures… and my time is limited.
Sparrow wrote;
I would agree with your statement that "Our brother Paul, a Jew, speaks of his travail… "
Would you agree that this travail spoken of happened AFTER the physical birth of Jesus?
Certainly Paul’s conversion happened after Jesus’s birth, that would be a moot point I believe. Again, I used this verse to show that the Holy Spirit often refers to Israel in travail… The Lord’s chosen Israel <meaning the Jews literally> have travailed in our generations as well. We all remember the Holocaust. I am noting this to say that the people who were appointed to “bring forth†the Messiah, Jesus Christ, have been hated and persecuted in EVERY generation. Because the enemy knew that it was God’s plan from the beginning, and he has always sought to destroy them! Just as today~ the enemy seeks to destroy all children of God whether they be Jewish or Gentile.
:nod
Well, it is off to do a bit of tutoring…
May Christ keep the peace between us as we differ and find the wholeness of His word, and may we strive to keep the unity of the faith ever. :amen
In Jesus… ever. Bonnie
:D
Golly it looks like I have puzzled you rather than edify you.
That was not my intent at all, and I can TRY to explain these understandings of mine a bit better. However, I do not think I have any great theological wisdom or theory here. My knowledge of the end times is somewhat simple, like most of my knowledge of the word.I cannot profess any ability to persuade anyone. What I am offering is a certainty and a hope in myself that may help guide another into truth. As I have often said, I do not think end times theology <what we believe about the end times> can make or break the faith of a Christian. However, I do believe that what we believe in anything… <but especially in these last days scenarios> will affect the WAY we live. :yes
So let me try to address a few of you first questions, those I do not think I can attempt I will not touch, rather I will allow you to glean understanding from another better equipped than I am.
Sparrow wrote;
I ...think... I answered this ~ I can certainly re-state what I said, and maybe embellish it.
~These wonders spoken of by John, are not physical from my understanding of them but immaterial… rather than use the word “sign†as many do~ and ten is taken as a symbolic type of sign, rather than a visual appearance. I prefer to use a grammatical term in explaining this wonder as a personification. This is an image drawn… not an actual occurrence at all. This “woman†is a personification of the nation Israel. As I noted and gave references for Israel is personified as a woman, as the wife of Jehovah, and as the “woman in travail… All the scriptures I found are listed in my post above~ which show this to be so.
I cannot say why it is difficult to see that God is referring to this truth about the Lord Jesus’ birth and the travail of His people Israel, and taking the dream of Joseph, who is a wonderful “TYPE†of Christ in the Old Testament, to re-state the relationship of His people Israel to Himself. Especially just before their greatest trials will ensue. . . I have often seen Him do this in the word, bringing an affirmation to those He loves prior to their testing.
Sparrow wrote;
You already know and don't need me to teach you that not every mention of the word "travail" is in reference to "the woman" spoken of in Rev 12.
And…
I would suggest that you look at each of those Scriptures where Israel is referred to in the Old Testament as in travail (over and over) with the idea of seeing what she is trying to bring forth. Did Israel indeed bring forth Jesus? Or was He sent by God to the lost sheep (Israel)?
I have “simply†looked into the word of God to see where the Holy Spirit used this phrase [woman in travail] to see who the Lord is speaking of here, it really is that simple.
For the woman to be Mary, the mother of Jesus would infer, that God is not speaking of the spiritual incarnation of Christ ~ but is merely speaking of who gave birth to him physically. I do not think we can suppose that God would use a GREAT WONDER to describe Mary. The Catholic use of Mary is not well known to me. Sorry, I was not brought us in any church; I was reared as a pagan. So, no, I would not be professing that Mary is any Queen of anything, let alone of heaven, in which the Godhead is referred to as MALE by the word.
My scriptures given showing the travailing woman and the other references that I also made~~~ Point to the pattern by which God refers to religious systems as female: The Bride of Christ, The wife of Jehovah, the Jezebel of False Teaching, and the Great Harlot of the False religion upon the earth during the tribulation. All of these show me~ that the Holy Spirit is using the woman in travail giving birth to Christ as HIS own people ~ His children.
During the tribulation God is working out the completion of His plan for Israel. He is fulfilling His promises to them made throughout their history with Him.
Sparrow wrote;
Did Israel indeed bring forth Jesus? Or was He sent by God to the lost sheep (Israel)?
Yes, Israel brought forth Jesus Christ. In order for God to bring the incarnate Son of God into this world to save it, He had to have a woman, yes… But God required much more than we might, He required a nation that He called His own children in which to instil His truth. The law and the Prophets came through Israel. So did the Messiah. :yes
By greater and greater revelation God made Himself manifest to all the world, first~ through a single man, Abraham. Then~ through a family, Jacob AKA Israel. Then through a nation. And Finally through the GREATEST revelation of all, His own Son… who was the image of the Father.
Sparrow wrote;
So, can we not look at the Bible to determine the timeframe for this time of travail you speak of, or must we ignore it? The time spoken of is when they shall say, "Peace and safety"
If you wish to look into the time frame… that would be another side issue. Of course you may, however that does not allow us to track with this particular scripture that we are discussing. However, if you want to ~ okay. However, I may not be so able to join in very much, as my understanding of the timing is bound up in many “otherâ€Âscriptures… and my time is limited.
Sparrow wrote;
I would agree with your statement that "Our brother Paul, a Jew, speaks of his travail… "
Would you agree that this travail spoken of happened AFTER the physical birth of Jesus?
Certainly Paul’s conversion happened after Jesus’s birth, that would be a moot point I believe. Again, I used this verse to show that the Holy Spirit often refers to Israel in travail… The Lord’s chosen Israel <meaning the Jews literally> have travailed in our generations as well. We all remember the Holocaust. I am noting this to say that the people who were appointed to “bring forth†the Messiah, Jesus Christ, have been hated and persecuted in EVERY generation. Because the enemy knew that it was God’s plan from the beginning, and he has always sought to destroy them! Just as today~ the enemy seeks to destroy all children of God whether they be Jewish or Gentile.
:nod
Well, it is off to do a bit of tutoring…
May Christ keep the peace between us as we differ and find the wholeness of His word, and may we strive to keep the unity of the faith ever. :amen
In Jesus… ever. Bonnie
Turn~
COOL! Nothing like getting a hand in the work. 
