Disprove Virgin Birth?

[tentex25]

Isn't it simply not true that the virgin birth took place since nobody wrote about the childhood of Jesus? If there really was a virgin birth, people would have made note before Jesus turned 30...and I don't believe there are any documents or evidence dating to 3-4 A.D. talking of the virgin birth. So how could a virgin birth take place with no record of it until Jesus was 30?!?

 

[thessalonian]

This is the fallacy that everything has to be written down for it to be true. The virgin birth was known publically and passed along orally until Luke wrote it down. The same question could be asked about the first five books of the Bible that were not written down during the times of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Joshua, etc. etc.

 

[tentex25]

Well true, but nobody would have been around during the time of Moses anyway except Moses (The Flood). A virgin birth seems to be something a little more noticable. I mean wouldn't more people have made notice? Give me some reasons that this virgin birth took place besides scripture.

 

[thessalonian]

Isaiha prohesies that it would happen and luke tells us it did. That's what we've got. There is plenty of evidence to show that the Bible is a book that comes from God. There is no reason to doudt the virgin birth claims of Isaiha and Luke other than it was very unusual (even a one time thing). It certainly is within the power of God if you believe in him so I'm having trouble understanding your problem and insistence on other evidence. Wasn't the very life of Jesus enough to convince you that his birth in to this world was unusual?

Your info says "christian rookie" if you are not Christian let us know so we can change the label. The virgin birth is a pretty neccessary doctrine to believe in Christianity.

 

[Quath]

From what I can tell, when Christianity started to pick up pagans, they brought their ideas to the new religion. To the pagans, a son of a god should be born from a virgin as most sons of gods were.

That and the misunderstanding of the Isaiah 7:14 prophecy got people believing that Jesus must have been born from a virgin.

The Isaiah 7:14 prophecy first of all refers to a young woman, not a virgin. And secondly, the prophecy was suppose to have been fulfilled long ago.

 

[thessalonian]

Sheee...don't let Mr. Versatile see your post. He thinks that only Catholicism has ties to paganism. Of course he doesn't read Acts 17 too often. "in him we live and move and have our being".

By the way Quath, you might want to get that Christian Pro taken from you.

 

[Heidi]

Isn't it simply not true that the virgin birth took place since nobody wrote about the childhood of Jesus? If there really was a virgin birth, people would have made note before Jesus turned 30...and I don't believe there are any documents or evidence dating to 3-4 A.D. talking of the virgin birth. So how could a virgin birth take place with no record of it until Jesus was 30?!?

They didn't believe it any more than you believe it. So why would people write about hings they don't believe? :o And nobody wrote about Christ's life before it was ended just like no one writes about anyone's life until they realize the impact that person will have on history. By your reasoning, then Jesus didn't say the words he did nor did Caesar say the words he did because people didn't write about them until after they died. :roll:

 

[Henry]

Oh brother, it was not exactly televised you know that Jesus was born of a virgin, it would have meant sure death to him and his family.

Some of the things people come up with blow my mind.

 

[Quath]

By the way Quath, you might want to get that Christian Pro taken from you.

I guess that is up to a moderator. I don't know how to set it.

Oh brother, it was not exactly televised you know that Jesus was born of a virgin, it would have meant sure death to him and his family.

So are you saying that while Jesus was talking about being Son of Man, he was worried what people would say about him if he said he was born from a virgin?

 

[TanNinety]

We can check the validity of the virgin birth from Jesus' words.

Then, surrounded by the Pharisees, Jesus asked them a question: 42 "What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?"
They replied, "He is the son of David."
43 Jesus responded, "Then why does David, speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, call him Lord? For David said,

44
`The Lord said to my Lord,
Sit in honor at my right hand
until I humble your enemies beneath your feet.'*

45 Since David called him Lord, how can he be his son at the same time?"
46 No one could answer him. And after that, no one dared to ask him any more questions.

Jesus knew that the prophecy of the messiah was mis calculated that the messiah must have an earthly lineage. So He asked them a question which debunked this myth that surrounded that the messiah would have an earthly David as father. They dared not to ask Him any questions after that because they realised they misunderstood the birth of the messiah.

Now why did Jesus ask the same question to His disciples and what was the right answer? .."You are the Son of God". Just as God formed Adam on earth, so did He form Jesus in the womb of mary. That was the revelation that peter got which Jesus reaffirmed that the knowledge was revealed to peter from above.

Of course if you want extra-biblical proof then I concede I dont have much to offer.

 

[TanNinety]

So are you saying that while Jesus was talking about being Son of Man, he was worried what people would say about him if he said he was born from a virgin?

Excellent question Quath. One that needs an answer.

1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Jesus was as much a "son of man" as men have been since Adam. God did not make Jesus a half spirit half human being. The reason why Jesus stressed the phrase "Son of Man" is to let us know He was a man just like you and me. And why is this important? Look around today and there are many that believe that Jesus is "fully God fully man" or "He came in the likeness of flesh". Thats the reason why Jesus stated that. And the author of 1 John uses that as a litmus test to identify the antichrist.

Son of man refers to the being of what Jesus was made like not the process of His making. Hope this makes sense.

 

[Quath]

The virgin birth is problematic because Jesus is suppose to be from the lineage of David (also through Solomon). Women did not count for lineage (women were seen as fertile ground that a man puts his seed in). So with Joseph removed from being the father, Mary can not pass on David's lineage. The New Testament writers try to get around this, but the virgin birth messes it all up.

Some of the problems is that Jesus has to be in the lineage of David and Solomon by seed. Joseph's lineage is given twice and both are inconsistent. So Christians try to say one of them was Mary, even though a literal interpretation goes against that. The one that is claimed to be Mary does not go through Solomon.

So to get around it, some Christians claim that Joseph passes on "by seed" through adoption. However, even if there is a loophole, Jeconiah is in Joseph's lineage as well. Jeconiah is cursed to never have a descendent who would sit on the throne of David.

I think the Bible writers wanted the lineage to be true and they just made it up to satisfy prophecy.

 

[tentex25]

The funny thing here is this thread Thessalonian is that you are a moderator and are now doubting my spiritual strength. You stated I should believe in the virgin birth to be a Christian, well that is correct, I am simply asking questions in a straight-foward manner to attain answers quickly and boldly. However, now here is the funny part, your a moderator of a Christian forum and you cannot spell Isaiah correctly? Maybe your moderator status should be taken away? lol :roll:

 

[Vic C.]

Well true, but nobody would have been around during the time of Moses anyway except Moses (The Flood). A virgin birth seems to be something a little more noticable. I mean wouldn't more people have made notice? Give me some reasons that this virgin birth took place besides scripture.

Um, I think you meant Noah, maybe? There were an estimated million or two Hewbrews alive...not to count the many Egyptians.

That's the best we can do... attack another's spelling? Let's get back to the topic please.

 

[Imagican]

Scripture states that Mary did NOT sleep with Joseph, (or vice versa), until AFTER the birth of Jesus. Either you accept that or you don't. The miracle of Christ's birth is NO MORE miraculous than the 'other' miracles produced BY God through His Son. Do you doubt those too? Then you are NOT of The Spirit of Christ plain and simple.

No more miraculous for God to 'plant a seed' than for Christ to turn 'water into wine', or 'walk on water'. These miracles WERE needed to 'prove' what Christ offered. If you don't believe in them you most likely don't believe in Jesus Christ AS The Son of God either. In that case, your argument is moot among those that consider themselves Christian. And NO AMOUNT of debate is going to 'prove' ANYTHING to you. Just empty words from an empty heart.

MEC

 

[thessalonian]

The funny thing here is this thread Thessalonian is that you are a moderator and are now doubting my spiritual strength. You stated I should believe in the virgin birth to be a Christian, well that is correct, I am simply asking questions in a straight-foward manner to attain answers quickly and boldly. However, now here is the funny part, your a moderator of a Christian forum and you cannot spell Isaiah correctly? Maybe your moderator status should be taken away? lol :roll:

Talk to vic about that. :-D But he better pick someone to replace me that has good sentence structure. :-D ". You stated I should believe in the virgin birth to be a Christian, well that is correct, I am simply asking questions in a straight-foward manner to attain answers quickly and boldly. "

Glad you believe in VB.

 

[Vic C.]

:o Leave Mr. Vic out of it. Thess can defend himself, I just prefer none of the bashing and defending be done in public.

See this?

The button is your friend use it; but don't abuse it, please. 8-)

 

[thessalonian]

I took it lighthearted vic. Don't know if it was intended that way. My response was also to be taken in jest. I apologize for questing the OP's Christinity and am glad he is orthodox on the matter.

 

[Heidi]

The funny thing here is this thread Thessalonian is that you are a moderator and are now doubting my spiritual strength. You stated I should believe in the virgin birth to be a Christian, well that is correct, I am simply asking questions in a straight-foward manner to attain answers quickly and boldly. However, now here is the funny part, your a moderator of a Christian forum and you cannot spell Isaiah correctly? Maybe your moderator status should be taken away? lol :roll:

Talk to vic about that. :-D But he better pick someone to replace me that has good sentence structure. :-D ". You stated I should believe in the virgin birth to be a Christian, well that is correct, I am simply asking questions in a straight-foward manner to attain answers quickly and boldly. "

Glad you believe in VB.

I think you should address Thess's declarations of Mary's virgin birth. : For that bizarre belief there is zero biblical justification. The only one born immaculately from God is Christ which is why he's divine. But putting Mary in that divine category too is worshiping another god. So those who do that aren't Christians, but pagans. So they're the last people to accuse others of not being Christian. :roll:

 

[MrVersatile48]

Sheee...don't let Mr. Versatile see your post. He thinks that only Catholicism has ties to paganism. Of course he doesn't read Acts 17 too often. "in him we live and move and have our being".

By the way Quath, you might want to get that Christian Pro taken from you.

Just 2 mins to say that I have posted, inc in the Hislop thread, that Italy, in 2001, had 3 times as many pro occultists as RC priests

Just quickly mention the angels visiting Mary & Elisabeth

Must go

Ian