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Divorce and Luke 16:18

P

Poster

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NIV: Luke 16:18"Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.


King James: Luke 16:17And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
18Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.
19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,


I'm just curious, how is it that Christians have divorce and remarry, given Luke 16:18?

Note that I believe divorce is an important tool and don't believe that Christians should follow verse 18.

I'm just curious as to what the theological justification is.

Respectfully,

Poster
 
What you don't think we should follow verse 18?


well I would say a true believer wouldn't divorce his/her husband or wife. But that is most likely because their marriage is good.

And there are people who will not get married like Paul did.
 
I think a lot of Christians get divorced, remarry, for the right reasons. Either the chemistry was terrible, or one is very abusive, perhaps there is constant marital rape, perhaps he is hopelessly addicted to drugs and the wife takes the kids and moves on, thank goodness....

I don't consider her second marriage 'adultery'.

Yet, Luke 16:18 clearly says it is.

Do you agree with Luke 16:18?
Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

?
 
Poster said:
I'm just curious, how is it that Christians have divorce and remarry, given Luke 16:18?


Most people who "get married" really do not understand the theological aspects of what is happening. In other words, they do not understand love, devotion, and total giving to the other. People go into such relationships ignorant of what they are about to undertake and what it means. They fail to rely on God and their priorities are usually themselves rather than the other person. Our culture of death and recreational sex takes the meaning out of marriage.

I don't think a lot of people understand what "one flesh" means - and so, 50% of "marriages" fail - although can we truly call this a "marriage" if they do not understand the covenental meaning of the term? Most get married because it seems to be the next step in their relationship. Marriage preparation classes are a good idea for Christians. But these classes need to point out that contraception is a major cause of problems in our society.

sorry, I'm getting off topic now. But I think most people separate because they didn't know what they were getting into. Those who DID know but STILL desire a divorce need to analyze what has changed in their relationship, because we commit to a lifelong relationship in marriage.

Regards
 
I agree divorce is sometimes a great idea.

So is Luke 16:18 a mistake, false?

Or are you saying that you agree with Luke 16:18, that there is no real divorce, people stay married no matter what?
 
Poster said:
I agree divorce is sometimes a great idea.

So is Luke 16:18 a mistake, false?

Or are you saying that you agree with Luke 16:18, that there is no real divorce, people stay married no matter what?


I agree SEPARATION is a good idea, but you can't remarry! Perhaps if people took their committment more seriously and thought over the consequences BEFORE marriage, they would work harder to make it last. However, people drop out very quickly if things don't go their way. I think only an annulment would work in these cases, since a marriage never existed, since a covenantal relationship requires two people who know what they are doing and commit to that promise.

What God has joined together... If we take the Scriptures seriously, I think we need to consider that our cultural formation is incorrect.

Regards
 
So Christians can't remarry?

I thought they did.

A Preacher who performs a second marriage is not really a Christian?
 
Poster said:
So Christians can't remarry?

I thought they did.

A Preacher who performs a second marriage is not really a Christian?

I didn't say that - but they are living in sin, according to Christ. Adultery. Paul tells us that those living in adultery cannot inherit the Kingdom (1 Cor 6; Gal 5), so I think an honest person can do the math.

Regards
 
I don't see a significant difference.

But you did answer my question, thanks.

I didn't know there was another thread on the exact same topic, I'm sorry I am duplicating a small part of it here.

Without me having to read the other thread (reading taxes my brain) do any Christians who believe in divorce as legitimate / a good thing to do, do any of those Christians defend the practice of divorce, and if so, how do they justify their belief in divorce given the verse?

Respectfully submitted.
 
Poster said:
I don't see a significant difference.

Once baptized, a person has received an indelible mark, the mark of the Holy Spirit. He is an adopted son of Christ and remains a Christian. Whether he later inherits the promise given to all Christians, that is another story. There ARE "poor" Christians in the world - they are Christians who need to be called back to God. But we don't move in and out of Christianity because we fall into sin.

One of the biggest heresies today is liberalism. Secularism. It is basically justifying our actions and thinking "Oh, God loves me, divorce isn't really that bad" "He wants me to be happy, and I am not happy with this woman..."

We can convince ourselves we are not in sin, but the Bible tells us otherwise. Such people who are infected with the above mindset must be handled very carefully and prayer is in order. I feel many marriages that end in divorce could have worked if they both called upon God and remembered their vows to each other and God.

Regards
 
Our first problem is the assumption that the Greek word "ἀÀολÅÉ" as used in Luke 16:18 means "divorce". To clear this up, let's consider the following passage:

And behold, a Canaanite woman from that region came out and cried, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David; my daughter is severely possessed by a demon." But he did not answer her a word. And his disciples came and begged him, saying, "ἀÀολÅÃον her, for she is crying after us." Matthew 15:22,23

Tell me, were Jesus' disciples asking Him to divorce the woman? Most translations render the word as "send away" in this passage. I think it is a mistake to assume that this refers to divorce when it applies to a man sending away his wife. The use of this word indicates a separation. That's why it's adultery. If a person separates from his wife and copulates with another woman (one of the meanings of "marry" in those days), he is committing adultery.

Paul, taught that divorce and remarriage is NOT a sin ---- and Paul was very familiar with the teachings of our Lord. When he wrote about such relationships, He often wrote "The Lord said thus and thus", or in some cases, "This is what I say, and not the Lord". So Paul definitely knew what Jesus taught. Yet Paul said this in I Corinthians 7:27,28

Have you been bound to a wife? Do not seek to be loosed.

If you have been bound to a wife, you must have been married to her. No? And if you seek to be loosed, you must want a divorce.

Have you been loosed from a wife? Do not seek a wife.

If you have been loosed from a wife, you have been divorced, have you not? Paul then recommends that is you have been divorced, you should not seek a wife.

But if you should marry, you have not sinned...

Is Paul not saying that if you do not take his advice, but marry anyway, you have not sinned?
 
1 Corinthians 7:25 Now I write about people who are not married. I have no command from the Lord about this; I give my opinion. But I can be trusted, because the Lord has shown me mercy.26 The present time is a time of trouble, so I think it is good for you to stay the way you are.27 If you have a wife, do not try to become free from her. If you are not married, do not try to find a wife.28 But if you decide to marry, you have not sinned. And if a girl who has never married decides to marry, she has not sinned. But those who marry will have trouble in this life, and I want you to be free from trouble.


Surely the above only applies to people who have never married (notice the bold letters above which I enlarged).

Or are you saying that verse 28 is applying to people who are divorced?

Which are you saying, that you believe Christians can remarry? Or that if they do, they are sinning on a par with adultery?

It's one thing for a Christian to say, "I shouldn't do X, but my will power is weak, I'm going to do it anyway."
I call that person a Christian.

But it's another thing for someone to say, 'Despite that Jesus says Q is wrong, I'm going to deem it permitted."
I don't think this latter version is a Christian, by definition, even if they personally do not do Q.

I don't count myself as a Christian, just so you know where I'm coming from.

I'm just trying to understand if some "Christians" think that divorce and marriage to another person is permitted (I mean to exclude from our conversation "Christians" who don't have a problem with adultery, I'm starting with the assumption that our "Christians" agree that adultery is forbidden, and therefore, my question to second marriage Christians is, "How do you see a second, different spouse as anything but Adultery as described in Luke 16:18?)

Again, I would be horrified if anyone walked away from their second wife or husband, I'm FOR divorce as a tool, an important tool.

When I read Luke 16, I tentatively conclude that Christianity fails to have this important tool, sadly, to the detriment of the religion.

I know that many Christians agree with my understanding of Luke 16:18, that divorce seems to be invalid. I hope, in practice, they are few in number. (I understand Catholics use annulment to get around this problem, so I'm only asking about those who don't use annulment, yet marry another but I don't know what they do with Luke 16:18... just ignore it?)

However, I'm asking, Do any Christians believe divorce is permitted, OK, fine, especially for the proper cases, thus permitting remarriage to another? (caps only to emphasize I'm looking to see if Christians defend the practice as a good idea in the right cases, legitimate in any case to marry a second person)
 
I don't know where you are getting your translation, Poster, but the Greek simply does not say, "if you are not married", etc. The translation I provided was correct.

True, in verse 25, Paul states that he is going to address the matter of virgins. And he gives his opinion in verse 26. Then in verse 27, he gives instruction for those who are married, and those who have divorced to remain as they are. In verse 28, he states that if a divorced person remarries, he has not sinned.

Let's stick with what the Greek text says, and not rewrite Paul's letter to make back a different understanding..
 
Adultery annuls the marriage. The marriage ceremony joins two people together. They become one flesh. Adultery by either partner, (REMEMBERING JESUS DEFINITION OF ADULTERY AS WELL), tears that joint apart. God allows a divorce to ratify shall we say the split already made by the unfaithful partner.
However, God's preference of course is for forgiveness. Through forgiveness there comes reconciliation .
It is the same in the spiritual sense. Through love of the world, or any form of idolatry whether your sport, TV, or whatever is number one in your life ahead of Jesus, (it maybe even your church) that is your idol and through your unfaithfulness to God you have commited spiritual adultery. (See James.)
A church commits spiritual adultery by fornicating with the kings of the world.
Forgiveness reconciles God to us despite our unfaithfulness.

I would suggest, though I might be convinced otherwise, that because an unfaithful partner has by his/her actions annulled the marriage and divorce as permitted by God has been affected, then remarriage is legitimate. But only when the divorce is on the grounds of adultery.
 
brakelite2 said:
Adultery annuls the marriage.....

No it does not. This is another example of not taking into account the cultural context of the men who wrote the scriptures, a common failing among many protestants.

Because the "exceptive clauses" occur only in Matthew’s Gospel  the one written for a Jewish audience  it means that they reflect some issue of particular concern to Jews. The term used for "unchastity" porneia  is being used in a special sense. It refers to unchaste behavior before the marriage is consummated. At that point, it is possible to dissolve the marriage, for marriages become indissoluble only when they are consummated. Today, with the tradition of the wedding night, it is highly unlikely a spouse could be unfaithful between the marriage ceremony and the consummation. However, in Jesus’ time it was customary for a couple to be legally married for about a year before the consummation. The bride continued to live with her family while the husband prepared their home. At the end of this time there was the "fetching of the bride" ceremony, where the groom took her back to his own home with family and friends accompanying them. Then, during the wedding party, the couple would retire and consummate their union. Clearly, within this long time frame unchastity was possible on the part of one of the spouses. But once a marriage is consummated, divorce is forbidden.
 
brakelite2 said:
Adultery annuls the marriage. The marriage ceremony joins two people together. They become one flesh. Adultery by either partner, (REMEMBERING JESUS DEFINITION OF ADULTERY AS WELL), tears that joint apart.


That makes absolutely no sense. "What God joins, let no man tear apart" apparently is meaningless? Adultery is a sinful act, not something that allows a marriage to be annuled.

In the OT, God is seen as the spouse of Israel. Over and over, Israel is called "unfaithful", a "prostitute", a "harlot", etc... Did God then "divorce" Israel for her harlotry, her adultery? No. God's faithful do not "divorce" or tear apart what God has joined together. Hosea is a good example of what a man of God SHOULD do in the event of adultery...

Jesus told us why MOSES allowed divorce - the stubborn Jews. But that is not God's plan. Man and wife are to remain together, joined by God. In the event of adultery, the marriage is not nullified. What is needed is prayer and forgiveness. Attentiveness to WHY one would commit adultery. An intense and honest look into oneself and HOW this could happen and what role one has that allows the idea of adultery seen as feasible and desirable in a God-bound relationship.

Regards
 
Paidion,

Out of context, I agree that it looks like 'loosed' means "divorced" in verse 28.

I used NIV.

It looks to me that there is a pattern of conditions, which are not 'following' from the prior sentences.

Darby:

27Art thou bound to a wife? seek not to be loosed; art thou free from a wife? do not seek a wife.
28 But if thou shouldest also marry, thou hast not sinned; and if the virgin marry, they have not sinned: but such shall have tribulation in the flesh; but I spare you.


NIV:
27Are you married? Do not seek a divorce. Are you unmarried? Do not look for a wife.
28 But if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. But those who marry will face many troubles in this life, and I want to spare you this.

King James:
27Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife.
28 But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you.

In all three translations, if all we had was verse 28, yes, it looks like the begining of 28 is connected to the case we just left, which is the end of verse 27. Normally, I would assume the first case of 28 is the same person we just left at the end of 27.

But my problem is this:
The start of verse 27 is not the same case as the end of verse 27.

This means that the cases do not stem from each other. Notice also in verse 28, the 'virgin' case also is not connected to the first case of 28.

Since the first case of 27 is not the same person as the second case of 27;
and since the second case of 28 is not the same case of the first case of 28, then it follows that none of the cases are the same person.

Let's go back to earlier in the chapter:

8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I.

9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:

11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

Notice that in verse 8, he *ONLY* lists unmarried and widows. Never does he clearly say that 'divorced' can remarry another.

Verse 11 seems to uphold this notion.

Remember, Luke 16 clearly calls being remarried to another after a divorce as 'adultery'.

If Paul's letter permitted a divorced to remarry another, then Paul would be in violation of Luke 16.

Does the Greek actually say that a "divorced' person can remarry another, or did you just mention that you know Greek, and then without actually claiming the Greek says 'divorced' can remarry another, rather use logic to prove that verse 28 must be the same case as verse 27?

I like logic, I bow to logic, it's just that I don't think that verse 28 logically follows verse 27, in this case, given that the clauses within verse 27 are not the same cases, and given the clauses of verse 28 are not the same cases either.

Remember, I'm *for* divorce, in the right circumstances.

On the side, I subscribe to the theory that Paul remained an agent of the San Hedrin, and was here concerned that Jews who leave their husbands not remarry, as their children would have the 'unclean' status, yet be holy as all are God's children regardless of their status.

Jesus, of course, couldn't have married if he wanted to. His mother was married to Joseph, who was not his father. Sadly, nobody knew God was Jesus' father, but they did know Marry was pregnant not from Joseph.

Matthew 5:32
But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.

NIV: 27Are you married? Do not seek a divorce. Are you unmarried? Do not look for a wife.
28 But if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. But those who marry will face many troubles in this life, and I want to spare you this.

Now, which word in that passage did the NIV mis-translate from the Greek?
If translated legitimately, then notice that being 'unmarried' is not the same thing as being 'divorced' as Jesus and the author Paul earlier in this same chapter seem to think that being 'divorced' is not being 'loosed' or 'unmarried' at all in the first place.

I believe I see your point, do you see my points?
1. That we have two or more verses of JESUS saying you can't marry another after a divorce, and
2. Paul could be read as talking about an 'unmarried' or 'loose' person who has never been married at all. He's only repeating that one can marry, though not ideal.

I thank you for your post.


Brakelite2, if what you are saying is correct, then adultery could only occur once, correct? No formal divorce needed? If a husband cheats on his wife the first time, then he's not married, even if he repents, gets right with God, he can do as he pleases, no divorce needed for either him or his former wife? I am making a reductio argument against your suggestion, I don't think that's how it worked.

Thanks for your post.

St Francis:

Because the "exceptive clauses" occur only in Matthew’s Gospel  the one written for a Jewish audience  it means that they reflect some issue of particular concern to Jews. The term used for "unchastity" porneia  is being used in a special sense. It refers to unchaste behavior before the marriage is consummated. At that point, it is possible to dissolve the marriage, for marriages become indissoluble only when they are consummated.


I politely disagree. In Jewish terms, the Erusin is a legally binding state of marriage *before the consumation, the Nesuin. You have to get a document of divorce even before the consummation.
Notice:

Matthew 1:19
Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

'divorce' yet they had not consummated.

I believe this is the problem as to why Jesus could not get married, his mother conceived him not from her husband. The idea that God or an angel did it was a secret until near or after Jesus died.
Certainly we don't read the NT as everyone thinking Jesus was God (yet).

Matthew 19:
8 Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.
9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."
10 The disciples said to him, "If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry."

Notice that the prohibition between cohabiting with an *unmarried* woman is if you pay her money.

The argument at Mat 19 seems, to me, that the disciples are saying that it's better to have a woman (not for money, that would violate the laws of Moses) but not get married. The punishment for adultery is death. There is no punishment under the laws of Moses for failing to get married.

Notice the concubines of the forefathers... they were pretty close to God and no problem with having a 'significant other'.

I must point out that for full disclosure, I've been happily married for quite a long time, I'm extremely lucky, the woman still hasn't come to her senses.
 
Mat 19:9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."

I just noticed that. I remember it even from being a child, but I didn't think about it now.

Of course this means, on some level, that Jesus recognizes divorce as a legitimate instrument, so long as the motivation was a reaction to adultery, or something on a par with that.

I, respectfully, don't think 1 Corinthians 7 is clear to the point, but Mat 19:9 is clear as day, 'except for...' means you can if the conditions are right.

Sorry for the trouble and thanks for your help.

See, my mind can be changed.

If only I could do more remembering.
 
Poster said:
....Of course this means, on some level, that Jesus recognizes divorce as a legitimate instrument, so long as the motivation was a reaction to adultery, or something on a par with that.....

No it doesn't. As I stated in my last post:
......The term used for "unchastity" porneia  is being used in a special sense. It refers to unchaste behavior before the marriage is consummated. At that point, it is possible to dissolve the marriage, for marriages become indissoluble only when they are consummated. Today, with the tradition of the wedding night, it is highly unlikely a spouse could be unfaithful between the marriage ceremony and the consummation. However, in Jesus’ time it was customary for a couple to be legally married for about a year before the consummation. The bride continued to live with her family while the husband prepared their home. At the end of this time there was the "fetching of the bride" ceremony, where the groom took her back to his own home with family and friends accompanying them. Then, during the wedding party, the couple would retire and consummate their union. Clearly, within this long time frame unchastity was possible on the part of one of the spouses. But once a marriage is consummated, divorce is forbidden.
 
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