Divorce

[stovebolts]

Is it true that the Roman Catholic Church will not grant a divorce?

I would take a wild guess and think that most Prot's would agree that a biblical divorce could be granted if adultry were a factor.

An Orthodox view.

http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/artic ... le7110.asp

The Law On Divorce, 5:31-32
"It hath been said, 'Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement.' But I say unto you that whosoever shall put away his wife, saying for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery; and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced cometh of evil."

Jewish men at the beginning of the Christian era had the right to divorce their wives and marry again. Jesus Christ forbids divorce save for the cause of fornication. The Eastern Orthodox Church permits divorce only on the grounds of adultery and reasons such as insanity, abandonment and changing of faith. Under these conditions, second and third marriages are permitted in the Orthodox Church

.


http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/ortho_cath.html

For Roman Catholics, Holy Matrimony is a binding, ostensibly an unbreakable, contract. The man and the woman marry each other with the "church" (bishop or priest) standing as a witness to it. Hence, no divorce under any conditions - no divorce but annulment of the marriage contract if some canonical defect in it may be found which renders it null and void (as if it never took place).

In Orthodoxy, Holy Matrimony is not a contract; it is the mysterious or mystical union of a man and woman - in imitation of Christ and the Church - in the presence of "the whole People of God" through her bishop or his presbyter. Divorce is likewise forbidden, but, as a concession to human weakness, it is allowed for adultery. Second and third marriages are permitted - not as a legal matter - out of mercy, a further concession to human weakness (e.g., after the death of a spouse). This Sacrament, as all Sacraments or Mysteries, is completed by the Eucharist, as St. Dionysius the Areopagite says.

Again, if this is correct, why such a hard line by the RCC?

Thanks!

 

[thessalonian]

Well the problem in Catholicism is not divorce in the secular sense. If a woman and a man are in a relationship where there is abuse for instance or where one or the other persists in adultery the Church does not say that they cannot separate for a time and even that they cannot divorce in a secular sense for the purpose of securing support of the children. Remarriage is what is not allowed. A couple who is divorced in the secular sense however is still married in the eyes of the Church.

Now the Church does grant anullments. Some see these as divorce but they are not. They are more like a revoking of a non-binding contract under false pretenses. For a marriage to be valid in the Catholic Church the couple must see it as permant and must be open to life and the couple must give themselves to one another freely. If these conditions are not met then there was never a marriage in the first place. Such marriages will commonly fail because they do not have the sacramental grace that is available through the Church for marriage.

So in summary, one can get divorced (secularly so) in the Catholic Church (yes for adultery) but they cannot get remarried because in the eyes of the Church unless the marriage is declared null, they are still married.

Hope that helps.

 

[stovebolts]

Me doing a double take :smt025
Maybe I misunderstood you? In the corporate world, we call that dancing, lol :smt026

Did you just say that the church will grant an annulment, but not a divorce? But the annulment wasn’t really for a marriage since the marriage didn’t meet the specification set forth by the church. Yet, this woman can’t re-marry because of this annulment that wasn’t really a marriage to begin with?

Am I confused at what you said? Is this a case of my inability to read? {seriously, I’ve been known to do that in the past lol}

 

[thessalonian]

Me doing a double take :smt025
Maybe I misunderstood you? In the corporate world, we call that dancing, lol :smt026

Did you just say that the church will grant an annulment, but not a divorce? But the annulment wasn’t really for a marriage since the marriage didn’t meet the specification set forth by the church. Yet, this woman can’t re-marry because of this annulment that wasn’t really a marriage to begin with?

Am I confused at what you said? Is this a case of my inability to read? {seriously, I’ve been known to do that in the past lol}

You misread it.
The specifications are not set by the Church. They are set by God. He says " be fruitful and multiply" for instance yet some people say "we will not have children". That is not a marriage of God. It is no marriage at all. Pre-nuptuial agreements invalidate a marriage when they say things like "if x happens the marriage is over". A God ordained marriage is one that is to last a lifetime. It is a contract and if one or the other party does not enter in to the contract honestly and willingly according to the conditions of what is a marriage, there is no marriage in the first place. It is the same thing if someone signs a fraudulent contract. Those who have an anullment can "remarry" because in the eyes of the Church (and God) they were never married. Those who do not, though they may have a cival divorce decree and no longer live together, can not.

If you look at the scripture on adultery closely, it does not say they can remarry. It simply says it is a different issue.

As for the hardness of the Catholic Church, I don't know how more direct God has to be "What God has joined let NO MAN PUT ASSUNDER".

Hope that clears things up.

 

[stray bullet]

Is it true that the Roman Catholic Church will not grant a divorce?

I would take a wild guess and think that most Prot's would agree that a biblical divorce could be granted if adultry were a factor.

The problem with such a perspective is that is intertwines a legal marriage with what is a sacramental one. The sacrament being what most protestants (and Catholics) see as "becoming one flesh".

The vows are until death do you part, because only by death does this unity end. Once this unity is established, it can not be undone. Sleeping with any other person becomes adultery. Now, it is important to understand that marrying someone does not automatically make you one flesh. It requires that one be baptized in the Body of Christ and understand marriage in the Christian way of life.

People who have been divorced can remarry in the Church- just as people who have divorced and remarried can join the Church. However, this requires that their marriage was not a sacramental one, only a legal one.

For example, if you ran off to Vegas with your girlfriend, got drunk, married and consumated the marriage- it probably isn't sacramental and you can get it undone. This is entirely different than a man and a woman waiting two years to get married, going to Church every Sunday for 30 years, teaching Sunday school and then applying for a divorce.

The divorce issue is complicated and I'm not knowledgable enough to tackle it except to point out the issue isn't 'marriage'- it is the forming of one flesh from two within the legal marriage. If this has occurred, then no divorce, because you would only be cheating on your own flesh.

 

[stray bullet]

Scripture:

"For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh." - Eph 5:31

 

[stovebolts]

Stray, Thess,
Thanks for clearing that up. It's actually refreshing that marriage is given such an important significance within the church.

Here's what I don't understand though. Lets say that a man and a woman grew up in the RCC and got married in the RCC. Before they were married, lets say that the guy liked to tip the bottle a tad too much as well as 'going out with the boys' and well, the woman wasn't wise enough to see what truly was before here (an abusive, cheating alcoholic).

A year or two later, she's been beaten up a few times and he's been sleeping around with other women. Sure, they go to mass every week (most of the time anyway) and the wife finally gets sick of it. So, she goes to the priest and he brings both of them toghether and he really repents and tries to change his ways... But it's short lived and the cycle begins.

A few more years go by, and the cycle still isn't any better so she files for a civil divorce.

How does the RCC look at this situation? Was it a "true" marriage to begin with? If so, is she required to stay with this guy or does she fall into a clause that meets the requirment for an annulment? Will the RCC approve or disaprove of her 'civil' divorce if they don't consider the marriage as an annulment and if she finally finds "The right guy", will the RCC perform another wedding for her or is she off to the justice of the peace? If the latter, how is she viewed by the Roman Catholic Church?

I think that these are important questions for reasons that I have not stated, but they should be pretty simple to see.

Thanks,
Jeff

 

[thessalonian]

Stove,

Senarios always tug at the heartstrings don't they. The poor 14 year old girl that got pregnant by her boyfriend who left her. What would the Church say, she should get an abortion. No. Sometimes life is hard and crosses must be born. Jesus says "take up your cross and follow me". We do it in faith knowing that Christ will help us bear the load and in my experience he does if we rely on him. When I have relied on myself I have stumbled greatly.


I cannot give you an answer on your senario because each anullment is on a case by case basis. Who knows, there may be something in the man's life that made it difficult for him to truly committ to one woman in a relationship and therefore contract a valid one. Perahaps some abuse or something. Infidelity can sometimes be a sign of this. But many times is just a falling in to sin. Marriage and Church do not guarantee that we don't sin as I am sure you are well aware. Sin does not invalidate a marriage. Infidelity before the marriage would be a strong indication as would living together. But the whole situation would have to be studied. There is something called a tribunal that examines the marriage. You pretty much have to give your life story and they want the same from the other spouse as well, though they don't always get it. I know because I have been through one. My ex-did not want children and so our marriage was anulled. She told this to a friend after we were married. It wasn't the cause of our breakup.

When we get married we say "for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, til death do us part". Those words are vows with meaning. They are to be taken seriously and they do not require a sinless husband or wife. Marriage is for helping men and women overcome sin.

If the woman is beaten by her drunk husband she does not have to live with him and in fact should not. But that does not invalidate a marriage.

Hope that helps.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

You can pray about this for yourself, but I believe that while God hates divorce, there are a few things that would be above it on His hate list.
1.) Deciding to get married without asking Him.
2.) Deciding who to get married to without asking Him.
3.) Not inviting Him to your wedding.
4.) Making a lifetime commitment to someone when you know it is just until things get bad, or something better comes along. (in other words, lying when you make your wedding vows)
5.) Never asking His help until things stop going your way.
6.) Never asking Him if He wants you to get divorced.
7.) Never asking Him if He wants you to stay in the marriage.


God loves it if, after you made a complete mess out of it, if you humble yourself and ask Him for help.

 

[stovebolts]

Thess,

Thank you for your well thought out reply. Know that I appreciate your response and the tone of your response. Thank you.

The scenerio was used not to tug at heart strings, it was to find out how the RCC would handle the situation. As you stated, I have learned that the parties go before a tribunal. I'm assuming that this is a group of bishop's or other clergy that has an indepth understanding of scripture and doctrine in this particular area.

Divorce is rarely simple, cut and dry and in reality, both parties are responsible to a degree. All too often, our nature to point the finger at the other person (even if justified) for all that they have done wrong in the marriage seems to act as a cover to hide what we've done wrong in the marriage. You've heard the saying, "Two wrongs don't make a right". It's a tough place to be, even if your the woman that got beat.

The thrust of my post is geared in that direction. 1st, How does the RCC define a true marriage and how do they define an annulment? In a marriage before God, that can never be broken. But it seems to me (and I hope I didn't misunderstand you) that in an annulment, the marriage was never truly considered a marriage in the presense of God. Is this an accurate statment?

Regardless, since we are sinful people, I think that it doesn't matter per say (ohh, treading lightly here, hope it comes out right), but it seems to me that both parties are accountable before God for the seperation and since the Church should be a place of healing for the sick, then how does the RCC view a woman or a man that has gotten a divorce? I'm not asking for the rules and regulations here, I'd kind of like to know what the "Buzz" would be.

One of the reasons I'm asking, is if divorce is such a big deal (AND IT SHOULD BE!~), could it become such a big deal that a woman would stay in an abusive situation based on a possibly distorted view of what the RCC doctrine actually says for fear of being downcast by the church? If so, what could be done to disperse that perception if indeed that perception exists?

Anyway, thanks again for taking the time to respond. I'm not digging for dirt.

Thanks,
Jeff

 

[thessalonian]

I don't think your digging dirt. Just answering the question the best way I can and sometimes that comes with a bit of toughlove (not for you) but to get the right disposition accross.

I'm assuming that this is a group of bishop's or other clergy that has an indepth understanding of scripture and doctrine in this particular area.

Yes. They are directly under the bishop at the diocesean offices.

How does the RCC define a true marriage and how do they define an annulment? In a marriage before God, that can never be broken.

See below on free, total, faithful, fruitful. "Till death do us part". We are married for life. At death of one spouse the other can remarry.

an annulment, the marriage was never truly considered a marriage in the presense of God. Is this an accurate statment?

That is true. I went to a class on what is called "Theology of the Body" last night of which I have a couple of threads and plan to do a few more. It is basically a deeper understanding of the redemption of Christ, redeeming our sin and healing it. Anyway last night he talked about the four promises we make when we are married as Catholics. Questions are asked for each of these at the wedding.

First we are to marry freely, secondly give our selves totally to that one person, third be faithful to that person, and fourthly we are to committ to being fruitful, i.e. open to life, bearing of children. These promises are made to eachother. If they are sincere and true then the marriage is a marriage in the eyes of the Church and in the eyes of God. It is as God intended marriage to be. Anything else is a lie.

Regardless, since we are sinful people, I think that it doesn't matter per say (ohh, treading lightly here, hope it comes out right), but it seems to me that both parties are accountable before God for the seperation and since the Church should be a place of healing for the sick, then how does the RCC view a woman or a man that has gotten a divorce? I'm not asking for the rules and regulations here, I'd kind of like to know what the "Buzz" would be.

Well I think there is alot more mercy and acceptance toward the divorced these days in all Christian denominations. As far as being a fully practicing Catholic there is not and never was a problem with attending the sacraments (i.e. the Lord's Supper) if one has been granted a cival divorce. The problem comes in if a person with a non-anulled marriage gets remarried. These cannot recieve the Eucharist until they either separate from the spouse, agree to live as brother and sister, or are granted an anullment and then have the marriage blessed. Are they shunned? I don't think so these days. At least they shouldn't be but people are what they are. Sinners. At any rate they are encouraged to attend Mass. Those who are divorced have divorced and separated groups and priest counseling of course. You are quite correct about both sides having issues in a divorce.

One of the reasons I'm asking, is if divorce is such a big deal (AND IT SHOULD BE!~), could it become such a big deal that a woman would stay in an abusive situation based on a possibly distorted view of what the RCC doctrine actually says for fear of being downcast by the church? If so, what could be done to disperse that perception if indeed that perception exists?

Yes, that is always a possibility. I have run in to people who thought they couldn't go to communion if they got a divorce. I think the Church tries to get information out on it's teachings. Usually people who are going through these kinds of things are not completely active Catholics and so they may not go to a priest for counseling. There they would recieve such information. I don't know an overall solution offhand. I do my best to explain it when I run in to such people. It's a good question though.

Blessings

 

[stovebolts]

Thess,
Thank you for taking the time to clarify that and dismiss some myths that I've heard.

Jeff

 

[golfjack]

Law of Love

Does the New Testament Church have a law about divorce, remarriage, and marriage? First of all, let's go to 2 Timothy 2:5, study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, Rightly dividing the Word of Truth. One simple rule of Bible interpretation is: Always ask yourself, Who's doing the speaking? What are they speaking about? And to whom are they speaking? I believe we must look at whom God was talking to. Sometimes He was speaking to Jews; and what He said didn'ty apply to anyone else.

Let's look in First Cor. where Paul is writing to the Church at Corinth. 1 Cor. 10:32: Give none offense, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentles, nor to the Church of God. Here, there are 3 classes of people: The Jews, God's covenant people; the Church, God's own family; and the Gentles, heathens people.

The Mosiac law was given to the Jews. God gave the Mosiac Law about marriage and divorce to the Jew only. We see this law in Deut. 24: 1-4. Also read Matt. 19:1-3. You see, Jesus was not giving this law to the Gentles. Jesus was simply answering the Pharisees questions about the Mosiac Law. Matt. 19: 9, Jesus said to the Jew under the Law, Whosoever puts his wife away except for fornification and shall marry another commits adultry. Jesus didn't say this to Born-again believers

After studying 1 Cor. 7:1-9, this verse made me ask God is there a law about marriage, divorce, and remarriage in the New Terstament Church? He surprised me and said No. Why? Because the New Testament Law is Love. We see this Law of Love in John 13:34, 35. Is this natural love? No, it's the God-kind of love.

As this is a big subject, let me say a few more things. First of all, God's does abhor divorce. Before one gets married, make sure it is of God's chosing. Yes, we must fall in love first, but the biggest thing is to chose your mate to love, and this kind of love will never fail. Can a Believer remarry after Divorce? Of course they can. Otherwise, they probably will commit fornification. Part of God's love is mercy. Divorce is just like any other sin that can be forgiven and completely forgotten about. If God forgets about it, then we should too.

I hope this is of some encouragement to others. I don't promote Divorce, but sometimes it just happens. The Bible says we must get over the old to obtain something new.


May God bless, golfjack

 

[ttg]

Golfjack, assuming someone was married in a religous ceremony, what action does your church take to recognize a divorce?

 

[francisdesales]

it seems to me (and I hope I didn't misunderstand you) that in an annulment, the marriage was never truly considered a marriage in the presense of God. Is this an accurate statment?

Yes, that is true. Marriage is a sacrament where an unbreakable bond and mark is created between the couple by God, akin to Baptism (although death of either spouse removes this bond). Since marriage is a sacrament, the minister MUST intend on performing what the Church states happens during the sacramental action. Thus, if a priest invalidly consecrates the bread and wine, it never became the Body and Blood of Christ. Since the COUPLE are the ministers of the sacrament, it is possible that the same sacrament can be null and void because it was invalidly performed. Canon 125-127 discuss what is an invalid act (ignorance or force, for example).

Thus, if someone is ignorant about what a Catholic marriage entails - and gets married, it can later be considered invalid by a tribunal.

One of the reasons I'm asking, is if divorce is such a big deal (AND IT SHOULD BE!~), could it become such a big deal that a woman would stay in an abusive situation based on a possibly distorted view of what the RCC doctrine actually says for fear of being downcast by the church? If so, what could be done to disperse that perception if indeed that perception exists?

The Church DOES allow a separation of a couple, discussed in Canon 1151-1155. Here is the link, if you desire to read it: http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0017/_P44.HTM Basically, it says that if a person has committed adultery, and the other spouse cannot forgive and has not had sexual relations with the cheating spouse for at least 6 months, the injured spouse can bring a case for separation before ecclesiastical authority. Also, a spouse in grave danger can do the same thing. It appears that sexual relations terminates one's right to separation in these cases. The bond remains, but the Church allows the spouses to separate (not free to marry others!)

I hope this helps. This is always a pastorally difficult situation.

Regards

 

[golfjack]

reply

TTG, All the members in my Church are in the family of God. No Church should ever set any kind of rules because like I said, we live by the law of Love Period. I know that Catholic's have many rules and regulations that they have to go by. Their cannon must be about a millioin pages long. If this is not legalistic, I don't know what is.




May God bless, golfjack

 

[ttg]

So you're saying that your church gives civil authorities the right to declare the actions taken in the name of God null and void?

Maybe you don't like the Catholic Church having the authority to bind and loose, but this power was granted by Jesus, not city hall.

 

[thessalonian]

What canon are you talking about. Or maybe you don't know what you are talking about? Canon law is hardly a million pages.

So noone hurts anyone else in your church. There is no divorce or lawsuits. Everybody loves everyone perfectly and completely with no sin? BIG HUG! :roll:

 

[golfjack]

reply

My friend, I was a Catholic for a long time. Therefore, I know some things about this denomination. As far as the cannon goes, I watched EWTN one time and this Priest had this big book, which I think was called a cannical book. It was very big, but it just seems to me that did have many pages. A million, I don't really know, but I bet most Catholics don't read it or even live by it. I do remember a question that was asked of the priest about watching boxing. He said it was a mortal sin. Give me a break.

I did see a glimmer of hope when the first John Paul was pope for a about one year because he was going to make many changes in the church, and he did, but they went back to the old way. I remember when the church use to have general confession at mass, but it was dropped.

I will turn it around to you. How do you know what my church does? Do you understand it? I believe there was and maybe still is a Charismatic movement in the Catholic Chuirch. They even pray in tongues.

There is not a bunch of gossips, and busy bodies in my church. We don't mess around with the legalities of divorce, other than to council if one wishes. I always look for a marriage renewal. If a person in my Church is divorced and wants to remarry, we council, and do our best to see if they have their emotions under control. We absolutely would marry them, but not any unbelievers.

Being raised a Catholic, I knew almost nothing about the Bible after 16 years of education. When I was saved, I had a real desire to study the Word. I eventually went to a Bible traing center, and became a Minister of the Gospel.

Do you think Believers are sinners? I challenge you to find me one Scripture where it says that a Believer is called a sinner. They are called saints, and New Creatures in Christ Jesus. Yes, we can do acts of sin, but our recreated spirits are perfect in the sight of God. A Holy God cannot reside in a spirit that is not perfect. Our problem is the soul and flesh. We can deal with this problem by renewing our minds by hearing and by the Word of God. Also, we should make our bodies a living sacrifice to God.

I have pretty much forgiven the Catholic Church, but will have some problems with my thinking, as we all do. Jesus Christ has done it all by shedding His Most precuous blood on the cross for the forgiveness of all sins (past, present, and future. Also, I will not comprmise the Word of God to anyone. One last thought: If God said it, I believe it, and that just settles it.

You have a great day my Catholic friend.


May God bless, golfjack

 

[thessalonian]

Being raised a Catholic, I knew almost nothing about the Bible after 16 years of education.

Well then you must not have paid attention in Mass. Because if you had listened every sunday, over seven years you would have pretty much had the whole thing read to you. Don't blame the Church if you didn't listen. From Sunday school I got the stories of the Old Testament and the new. Not sure what kind of CCD program you attended if they didn't talk about the stories of Adam and Eve and Genesis and Noah. I remember them from a very young age. Maybe your parents didn't sign you up for CCD. Or perhaps you paid about as much attention as you did in Mass. Once again, why is the Church to blame for your inattention?

Other comments you have written show you don't know that much about Catholicism. We will see in time.

Yes, Christians sin. John says "if any man says he is without sin, he is a liar". I would let that one convict you.