Do All Suicides (Christians) Die Lost?

[iLOVE]

Is there forgiveness for this sin by God?

 

[reba]

I believe God care for those who are ill ... be it a cancer .. mind or emotions. .. It is not a sin to have cancer why would be a sin to have a sick mind..

 

[dianegcook]

I believe God care for those who are ill ... be it a cancer .. mind or emotions. .. It is not a sin to have cancer why would be a sin to have a sick mind..

I agree with Reba on this one..
I believe "depression" is a disease .
They wasn't in their "right mind" per se....

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Pray and hope. It's not in our hands anymore at that point. Just have to pray and hope that God will help heal them and nurture them in a new better heavenly home.

 

[wwjd_kilden]

They are not lost
Why is there so little understand for depression / other mental illness.
Imagine if someone said "If you get hit by a drunk driver and die in the crash you go to hell"

 

[Wrg1405]

Jesus bore all our sins on the cross and this includes suicide.
There is only one sin that can't be forgiven and that's rejecting Jesus.

Whilst the majority of suicides are due to depression there are other forms of suicide as well.
People who partake in dangerous sports and pastimes & stunts do so in the knowledge that one wrong move could kill them. Their actions could lead to their death. If that happened and they were beleivers would we say they go to hell? Of course not.

So why would say of someone who suffers from a mental illness whose actions lead to their death.
The problem is mental health issues can be caused by past experiences and also medical reasons.
If it's medical a person may have no idea what's causing and unless it's diagnosed they will carry this baggage around.

A big issue for me is that for some reason the church seems to shy away from this. People who suffer mental health issues tend to be reluctant to talk about it. We need to realise that there genuine beleivers who suffer deeply. The church's attitude should be one of love and compassion and an outlet for people to feel safe and unashamed to be honest.

The church is guilty of this fluffy wuffy attitude of "your a Christian, what have you got to be depressed about, trust in Jesus and everything will be ok (note I'm not saying that is the case) but when a person struggling with depression that attitude does not help, they don't want this illness and even pray for healing but when it doesn't seem to happen they become further depressed and probably feel guilty because there must be some reason why God is allowing it and it could be sin related amongst other things and therefore God is punishing them.

The church needs to wake up and smell the coffee. It needs to a place of refuge, love, compassion, acceptance.
People need to feel safe to be honest and not fear being judged and told "read your bible more, pray more etc"

So in my humble opinion if a beleiver takes his own life is doing so to escape their hell on earth, and I beleive will be with Jesus no longer suffering their hell like life on Earth and praise Jesus will be living in heaven for ever.

 

[JohnDB]

Remember the story of Sampson?

How about when the different prophets told the kings the truth that they didn't want to hear?

How about Gideon?
200 guys to fight how many? (If that ain't a suicide mission I'm not sure what is)

How about one of David's mighty men...the one who stayed behind to fight so the others could escape...it didn't work out like he planned either. He ended up killing all the pursuers.

And then there is the story of Saul. His suicide is the opposite of these others. He killed himself to try and save his reputation.

The Bible is full of stories of suicide and attempted suicide.

Surely one of those stories can speak for themselves.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I've been diagnosed with a severe form of Bipolar I. Basically, when not treated...its like little episodes of Schizophrenia, followed by periods of semi-normalcy. Anyway...

...at 23, I had The Crackup. It got so bad that I was hearing voices...I could almost feel the voices, like hot breath on my ears. I walked against traffic on a busy road to get onto a bridge, and I pondered jumping. A cop car came, took me to my apartment. I was sedated and put into a mental hospital.

Point is...if I'd jumped while hearing voices and having gone without sleep for a loooong time, do you think God would judge this the same as someone who commits any number of sins while "playing with a full deck" ? I'm not God ((clearly)), but I think that while, yes, He judges sin, I also think He is more merciful, forgiving, and compassionate than most (all?) of us give him credit for.

Other cases...if a Christian has a painful, life-ending disease, and the choices are spend your last days in a pain killer induced fog (assuming they --can-- get proper palliative care) or get a prescription for a barbiturate and call it a day...I don't know that the 2nd option is necessarily a sin, either. Sometimes, hospice will end your life somewhat early, anyway. At a certain point, the amount of pain killer needed to keep someone comfortable gets kissin' close to the lethal dose, and sometimes...the pain killing dose ends up turning lethal. Of course, I've heard rumors of times hospice facilitates suicide w/ the pain killers and an older friend of mine said her husband's hospice team offered him a lot of Dilaudid or something so he could "go out with dignity." So...although the barbiturate OD option is obviously suicide, it seems that, in a lot of cases, the medical establishment is going to end your life earlier, one way or another....

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There is only one sin that can't be forgiven and that's rejecting Jesus.

Like all questions about if a certain sin causes a person to be lost, it depends on WHY the person is committing the sin. If they commit suicide because they no longer know him or never did in the first place, that is when one's sins condemn them.

People who partake in dangerous sports and pastimes & stunts do so in the knowledge that one wrong move could kill them.

As an aside, I refuse to watch videos of people doing stupid stunts that can go terribly wrong.

A big issue for me is that for some reason the church seems to shy away from this. People who suffer mental health issues tend to be reluctant to talk about it.

I resist the mentally ill person when their condition causes them to be dangerous or emotionally/ mentally hurtful. They need professional help, not anything I can give them. Same for drug addicts.

they become further depressed and probably feel guilty because there must be some reason why God is allowing it and it could be sin related amongst other things and therefore God is punishing them.

Surely God will eventually tell the saved but depressed person if their depression or mental illness is because of sin. The Bible is clear that it can be. The promises of God are conditioned on not harming other people. You can't dwell in the manifest promises of God and be a jerk at the same time. Especially to the body of Christ. God won't allow it.

The church needs to wake up and smell the coffee. It needs to a place of refuge, love, compassion, acceptance.

But not for the abusive believer.
They need to go home until they are ready to repent.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm not God ((clearly)), but I think that while, yes, He judges sin, I also think He is more merciful, forgiving, and compassionate than most (all?) of us give him credit for.

Someone intervened and you didn't jump. That was God's mercy.

it seems that, in a lot of cases, the medical establishment is going to end your life earlier, one way or another....

We think my brother purposely stopped taking his meds before his stroke in January. While in the hospital he contracted two bacterial infections from the filthy place, which surely made any possibility for recovery virtually impossible.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But not for the abusive believer.
They need to go home until they are ready to repent.

...including the pastor if he's the one being abusive.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Remember the story of Sampson?

How about when the different prophets told the kings the truth that they didn't want to hear?

How about Gideon?
200 guys to fight how many? (If that ain't a suicide mission I'm not sure what is)

How about one of David's mighty men...the one who stayed behind to fight so the others could escape...it didn't work out like he planned either. He ended up killing all the pursuers.

And then there is the story of Saul. His suicide is the opposite of these others. He killed himself to try and save his reputation.

The Bible is full of stories of suicide and attempted suicide.

Surely one of those stories can speak for themselves.

How about Judas?
The point being, it's WHY you commit suicide that determines your fate.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

My brother-in-law committed suicide a few months ago. It's disturbing because my wife had indicated from her last visit with him that he'd found some measure of peace with God. But then I considered how woefully inadequate the church is at nurturing new believers (evangelism is what the church is supposed to be doing, they say).

 

[Wrg1405]

But not for the abusive believer.
They need to go home until they are ready to repent.

I agree but this post is not about them.

resist the mentally ill person when their condition causes them to be dangerous or emotionally/ mentally hurtful. They need professional help, not anything I can give them.

Also I am not saying that the church should be qualified to help with a mental illness. What I'm trying to say is that a person with a concealed mental illness should not feel ashamed to approach trusted Godly people. If professional help is needed they should be encouraged to seek it.

Like all questions about if a certain sin causes a person to be lost, it depends on WHY the person is committing the sin. If they commit suicide because they no longer know him or never did in the first place, that is when one's sins condemn them.

My assumption based on the title of this thread is that such a person is a believer.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why is there so little understand for depression / other mental illness.

For me it's because they can be real jerks.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I remember reading somewhere...maybe The Catholic Encyclopedia...that suicide is the logical end to a life poorly lived. Ouch. Harsh words. And yet...often true, I think.

I duno. I do think that sometimes people get so sad it goes over into bona fide depression territory and Rx treatments are needed, at least for a while. Psychosis...not fun at all, probably contributes to some suicides. But I don't know that medicalizing these problems--"depressive disorder," "psychotic disorder," etc.--does most of us any big favors. I'm blessed that, for now, I take Rx treatments that keep me in a place where I can start (re)building a life, now that I'm saved and my people have forgiven me, all that. That's wonderful, and I hope God saves more wretched "mental patients" and gives them these sorts of blessings.

Having said that...while I'm perfectly willing to take meds for the foreseeable future, I don't think I have a brain disease, and I don't think I want to be on meds indefinitely. I made a lot of mistakes, committed a lot of sins, sought "help" from so-called "professionals" who were too self-important to do much of anything, and...I went stark, raving mad. "Bipolar I" may be accurate right now, as much as any DSM code is accurate, but I don't think its always a lifelong problem.

Rambling...point is, calling sadness and madness by scientific-sounding DSM codes turns distress into diseases, but doesn't help anybody all that much (except the docs and Big Pharma). For me, a lot of my "progress" has been from piecing together why I was the way I was and working with Christ to change and move forward, maybe, hopefully one day out of the patient role (I'll probably have to move for that transition...).

I think of of King Nebuchadnezzar (spelling?) in the OT. Prideful. sinful...God made him crazy for 7 years, then restored him. If you look at data on the mentally ill, you see a lot of abuse, trauma, drug abuse, alcoholism, poverty, sketchy employment histories, messed up family systems....

...so, I think one reason psychiatry and the rest of Mental Health, Inc. is so big in the US, more so than elsewhere, is because they pick up people who can't make a go of things, both because of personal sins and because of (I think) an increasingly sick, hyper-competitive, materialistic society. So, its no longer "You grew up in poverty, you were abused, you made bad decisions," its "You have PTSD, depression, substance abuse disorder."

I've noticed that some Christians compain about psychiatry "letting people off the hook," taking away responsibility. I'd argue that what psychiatry is really, really good at is letting --society-- off the hook...the family, the community, the schools, the work place, etc...and then labeling those on the discard heap with some sort of "illness."

I dunno. I'm rambling, I know, but...its complicated. Like, with me...the Rx treatments do help some problems, for now, but I don't think "I will be on meds for the rest of my life," because...if I do stay on these meds for the rest of my life, the odds of really, really bad adverse effects goes up a good bit. If mental illness is a "brain disease," why do they still do shock treatments and (now and then) brain operations?

Rambling. I think suicide is often the end of a life of sin and pain, just as madness can be the result of sin and pain and oppression. I don't know that calling misery "depression" and madness "psychosis" necessarily helps people, although it does make psychiatry look like a field of medicine when really...its not.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I agree but this post is not about them.

But it is.
Mental illness often makes people jerks.

What I'm trying to say is that a person with a concealed mental illness should not feel ashamed to approach trusted Godly people.

I agree.
But the problem is mentally ill people can be very not humble and in fact very angry and abusive. They're suffering. I get that. But they need to be humbled before the church can minister to them. There are professionals that can deal with dangerous, hurtful mentally ill people. I don't think the church has any obligation to open it's doors to a hurtful, dangerous person. Not until they are humbled in some way and can then receive what the church does have that can help them.

My assumption based on the title of this thread is that such a person is a believer.

But we can't exclude the possibility that they had stopped believing before they killed themselves. In which case they no longer have Christ to cover any sin that would keep them out of the kingdom. They are lost.

 

[JLB]

I believe God care for those who are ill ... be it a cancer .. mind or emotions. .. It is not a sin to have cancer why would be a sin to have a sick mind..

I agree with Reba on this one..
I believe "depression" is a disease .
They wasn't in their "right mind" per se....

My short answer to this controversial question is No, they all don't go to hell.


Each case is to be taken on it's own, as Paul said.... The Lord knows those who are His...

Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” 2 Timothy 2:19


The only scripture I have found that shows that a person who committed suicide does not go to hell is:

4 Then Saul said to his armorbearer, “Draw your sword, and thrust me through with it, lest these uncircumcised men come and thrust me through and abuse me.” But his armorbearer would not, for he was greatly afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword and fell on it. 1 Samuel 31:4-5

Saul was on the verge of death from his wounds and didn't want to be tortured by the Philistines.

Saul knew by the word of Samuel that he would indeed die and go to be with Samuel in Abraham's Bosom.


Does this mean everyone who want's to escape the shameful abuse of public torture has a right to commit suicide and expect to go and be with the Lord?


Jesus didn't.

Peter didn't, though he knew that he would be crucified and publicly, and put to an open shame, he submitted himself to this painful death knowing that God was well able to strengthen him to endure it.

“The Lord knows those who are His,” 2 Timothy 2:19



JLB

 

[Wrg1405]

But we can't exclude the possibility that they had stopped believing before they killed themselves. In which case they no longer have Christ to cover any sin that would keep them out of the kingdom. They are lost.

And we can't assume they have either.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I think of of King Nebuchadnezzar (spelling?) in the OT. Prideful. sinful...God made him crazy for 7 years, then restored him.

Excellent example of, both, God isolating the sinner from blessing, and being merciful to them when they are then humbled.