Do non-Christians ever walk the streets of Heaven in NDEs?

[James_Robertson]

So do you really believe God constructed a confined and limited city somewhere with streets paved of a hard, unyielding, glaring metal? The way some people take the Bible really blows my mind.

Hi Willie!

"My Father's house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?" -John 14:2

I do believe this to be true. What is your take on it?

 

[reba]

It is The Scriptures that point to the Truth... not some extra Biblical heretical teaching

 

[James_Robertson]

For Me or against Me, for instance. Everybody's headed to Hell, until and unless they somehow come to genuine, saving faith in Christ.

Besides...the heart is deceitfully wicked above all things; who can know it? Who knows where these visions and such are coming from?

I used to think the same way, but many Christians who were falling away from Christ turned back to him after their NDEs or visions when they were shown that the way they were living was wrong. Many non-Christians have also been shown that they were not living a life of love, but rather were conceited, self-centered and wrathful. So, they changed their lives and stopped being materialistic.

So, there is a positive effect on many people's lives after these experiences when they either see Jesus or hear his voice. I don't feel like that is the devil talking.

 

[James_Robertson]

It is The Scriptures that point to the Truth... not some extra Biblical heretical teaching

Amen I agree. I don't take NDEs or visions above the bible. But I do think those people experience something real. Was your grandmother's NDE a powerful experience in your opinion?

 

[reba]

Seems you are bent on pushing this ... as was said not here

 

[reba]

Her testimony was not for sale.. selling books talking about trips to heaven and back are not scriptural .. I suggest you put these things away get away from the strange fire. Pick of His Letter to us ..

 

[reba]

Amen I agree. I don't take NDEs or visions above the bible. But I do think those people experience something real. Was your grandmother's NDE a powerful experience in your opinion?

posting those sites and U-tubes here says differently

 

[Eugene]

I have some thoughts on Near Death Experiences that I'd like to share.
Maybe you all have some thoughts on this?

Brother James_Robertson, the largest study of NDE’s is available at http://www.nderf.org/

Paul could not describe the things he heard with his available language, nor the things occurring; he couldn’t even discern whether he was in body or spirit.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Different religions experience NDE’s normally associated with their beliefs making me think that NDE’s may be more associated with physical rather than spiritual.

John in Revelation was also caught up to heaven (Rev 4:1), and Jesus’ angel of Rev 1:1 showed him things to be written to us. Now did John fully understand the things he saw and heard? He described himself as the one Jesus loved in Joh 13:23, and you would think that john would recognize Him in heaven, but he didn’t? John actually bows down to the angel in Rev 19:10 & Rev 22:9, and is rebuked for it.

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[James_Robertson]

Paul could not describe the things he heard with his available language, nor the things occurring; he couldn’t even discern whether he was in body or spirit.

Yes, it is definitely an out-of-body experience he was having and certainly from God. It does seem harder to tell what is going on in the experiences we hear today.

Different religions experience NDE’s normally associated with their beliefs making me think that NDE’s may be more associated with physical rather than spiritual.

I'm still wondering about this and haven't been able to decide either way. An atheist name Howard Storm found himself in hell during an NDE and ended up praying and got pulled up out of the pit by Jesus. He was shown how his life was full of selfishness and wrath. He changed his life and is now a minister and very much on fire for the Lord.

It seems that an atheist's beliefs wouldn't lead them to experience anything at all after death. But I'm still unsure and forming my opinions.

Brother James_Robertson, the largest study of NDE’s is available at http://www.nderf.org/

Thanks for this Eugene. Most of the NDE testimonies I cited in the original post were from that site. The links were removed.

 

[Edward]

There sure is a lot of NDE testimonys out there. Some of them can be assumed to be fakeries, but due to the sheer number of them, one has to assume that some are real. So something happens to these people. Something real.

They may not be expressly talked about in scripture, but I don't think that that fact alone makes them heresies. Just because something is not in scripture doesn't mean that it can't be true.

There's a lot of prophecies in scripture which speak about revelation by God. Is this true? Does God give people revelations about Himself? Scripture says yes to this. So when anyone posts that they had a revelation from God, why is it denounced as a heresy because the revelation is not in scripture. Either scripture is true or it is not. I don't understand why everything non biblical is denounced and all revelation is denounced...but scripture says that revelation will happen. A conundrum...

 

[James_Robertson]

[NDEs] may not be expressly talked about in scripture, but I don't think that that fact alone makes them heresies. Just because something is not in scripture doesn't mean that it can't be true.

I agree with you. I also agree with those who say we should be careful and allow the scripture to be the authority.

I find that these experiences point to the God of the bible and to Jesus Christ when you step back and look at them as a whole. Jesus said the most important thing is to love God with all you heart and to love your neighbor as yourself.

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." - Jesus

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

James, you've talked about two intresting subjects. The geography of heaven and possibilities of nonbelievers being in the outer realms of heaven. Biblically though, there are many other things that are taught. Some of greater importance and a few that might hint in some of the things you've said or just as easily hint at something we don't know about also.

If it's true that nonbelievers are not sent to hell on the basis of their belief but on their disbelief and actions then that does give me hope for several people who I think of as good people, and those that I love and who love God but aren't Christian. But this is if these things are true. I don't know how many testomies of NDE to scruntize as false and how many to count as true. There are several scriptures of warnings to be cast into hell, and scripures that says Jesus is the only way to the Father.

So because of these things (not knowing which NEDS to trust and which are to be considered untrustworthy; and that scripture points to Jesus); because of these things here is my advise. Listen to NDE and let them give you hope, or let them give you more resolve to study Hod's teachings and live according to His ways. It seems to me these are the purposes of those kinds of experiences, to be warnings and encouragement. However let them only go that far. To encourage and to warn, but not to rely heavily on for teaching. that's my figuring. Read the bible, pray for all things, love one another and share in eachother's joys and sorrows, and try to apply to your life the teachings given in the bible.

There are also encouraging spiritual experiences outside of NDE as well. Take encouragement from these as well. Have a good one James.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

On NDE in General. Luke 16:19-31 (New Living Translation)

19 “There was a rich man who dressed in purple linen clothes everyday. He lived like a king would live with the best of food. 20 There was a poor man named Lazarus who had many bad sores. He was put by the door of the rich man. 21 He wanted the pieces of food that fell from the table of the rich man. Even dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The poor man who asked for food died. He was taken by the angels into the arms of Abraham. The rich man died also and was buried. 23 In hell the rich man was in much pain. He looked up and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus beside him. 24 He cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, take pity on me. Send Lazarus. Let him put the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue. I am in much pain in this fire.’ 25 Abraham said, ‘My son, do not forget that when you were living you had your good things. Lazarus had bad things. Now he is well cared for. You are in pain. 26 And more than all this, there is a big deep place between us. No one from here can go there even if he wanted to go. No one can come from there.’

27 “Then the rich man said, ‘Father, then I beg you to send Lazarus to my father’s house. 28 I have five brothers. Let him tell them of these things, or they will come to this place of much pain also.’ 29 Abraham said, ‘They have the Writings of Moses and of the early preachers. Let them hear what they say.’ 30 But the rich man said, ‘No, Father Abraham. If someone goes to them from the dead, they will be sorry for their sins and turn from them.’ 31 Abraham said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and to the early preachers, they will not listen even if someone is raised from the dead.’”

Verse 29-31 says a lot in my opinion. It points to how they will not listen to even one who is raised from the dead which is exactly what Jesus did and was still not believed by the religous leaders and by many people. But in the case of NDE I think it can also be applied. We have the prophets of the bible, we gave the bible itself, and we have preachers, bible studies and misionary groups. But perhaps NDEs even the ones that do happen, might not be the way to teach and preach. So what should we do? What can we apply from the bible. Anything we can apply in our lives I think is the answer. From our own behavior to our teachings and correct teachings. But in these cases 1 Corinthians 13 comes to mind.

13 I may be able to speak the languages of men and even of angels, but if I do not have love, it will sound like noisy brass. 2 If I have the gift of speaking God’s Word and if I understand all secrets, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I know all things and if I have the gift of faith so I can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give everything I have to feed poor people and if I give my body to be burned, but do not have love, it will not help me.

4 Love does not give up. Love is kind. Love is not jealous. Love does not put itself up as being important. Love has no pride. 5 Love does not do the wrong thing. Love never thinks of itself. Love does not get angry. Love does not remember the suffering that comes from being hurt by someone. 6 Love is not happy with sin. Love is happy with the truth. 7 Love takes everything that comes without giving up. Love believes all things. Love hopes for all things. Love keeps on in all things.

8 Love never comes to an end. The gift of speaking God’s Word will come to an end. The gift of speaking in special sounds will be stopped. The gift of understanding will come to an end. 9 For we only know a part now, and we speak only a part. 10 When everything is perfect, then we will not need these gifts that are not perfect.

11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child. I thought like a child. I understood like a child. Now I am a man. I do not act like a child anymore. 12 Now that which we see is as if we were looking in a broken mirror. But then we will see everything. Now I know only a part. But then I will know everything in a perfect way. That is how God knows me right now. 13 And now we have these three: faith and hope and love, but the greatest of these is love.

 

[James_Robertson]

Not_Now.Soon

I'm totally with you. Everything you're saying here is right on point in my opinion. I don't place anything above the Word of God. Some verses seem clear at first and then make us think deeper.

"All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."-Romans 2:12-16

 

[Runner]

It occurred to me early in the days of the NDE phenomenon that this might be a uniquely "high-tech" way for God to speak to humanity in these times where it can be difficult to grab peoples' attention with a standard gospel presentation. With many people, the first threshold to be overcome is their hard-boiled resistance to the notion of any spiritual realm. The NDE phenomenon provides pretty compelling evidence of a spiritual realm - evidence that is generally very consistent with the Christian message - in a format that even the medical and scientific community has been forced to take seriously and that cuts across all cultures and religions.

To a lesser extent, I see the Shroud of Turin the same way - a uniquely "high-tech" artifact that speaks to our times. NDEs and the Shroud are not substitutes for the Bible or the gospel message, of course, but they can be wonderful door-openers that I have no difficulty believing God is using in the same way He uses satellite and Internet technology. Alas, as with satellite and Internet technology, they can also be used to lure people into New Age silliness.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

It occurred to me early in the days of the NDE phenomenon that this might be a uniquely "high-tech" way for God to speak to humanity in these times where it can be difficult to grab peoples' attention with a standard gospel presentation. With many people, the first threshold to be overcome is their hard-boiled resistance to the notion of any spiritual realm. The NDE phenomenon provides pretty compelling evidence of a spiritual realm - evidence that is generally very consistent with the Christian message - in a format that even the medical and scientific community has been forced to take seriously and that cuts across all cultures and religions.

To a lesser extent, I see the Shroud of Turin the same way - a uniquely "high-tech" artifact that speaks to our times. NDEs and the Shroud are not substitutes for the Bible or the gospel message, of course, but they can be wonderful door-openers that I have no difficulty believing God is using in the same way He uses satellite and Internet technology. Alas, as with satellite and Internet technology, they can also be used to lure people into New Age silliness.

Good points Runner.

 

[Edward]

James, you've talked about two intresting subjects. The geography of heaven and possibilities of nonbelievers being in the outer realms of heaven. Biblically though, there are many other things that are taught. Some of greater importance and a few that might hint in some of the things you've said or just as easily hint at something we don't know about also.

If it's true that nonbelievers are not sent to hell on the basis of their belief but on their disbelief and actions then that does give me hope for several people who I think of as good people, and those that I love and who love God but aren't Christian. But this is if these things are true. I don't know how many testomies of NDE to scruntize as false and how many to count as true. There are several scriptures of warnings to be cast into hell, and scripures that says Jesus is the only way to the Father.

So because of these things (not knowing which NEDS to trust and which are to be considered untrustworthy; and that scripture points to Jesus); because of these things here is my advise. Listen to NDE and let them give you hope, or let them give you more resolve to study Hod's teachings and live according to His ways. It seems to me these are the purposes of those kinds of experiences, to be warnings and encouragement. However let them only go that far. To encourage and to warn, but not to rely heavily on for teaching. that's my figuring. Read the bible, pray for all things, love one another and share in eachother's joys and sorrows, and try to apply to your life the teachings given in the bible.

There are also encouraging spiritual experiences outside of NDE as well. Take encouragement from these as well. Have a good one James.

I'm not sure that it would be important how many NDE's are true or even which specific ones for that matter. I think the bigger point there is that any of them are true, or some of them are true. That's all that's needed because, like you say, there's really only one thing that we get out of them. Encouraged faith. That God is active and doing many things in the world. It's good to hear the NDE's where they go to hell occasionally also, but they're not as fun to listen to as the heaven ones.

I've been hearing stories about visitations also. They seem to be on the increase.

 

[James_Robertson]

My thinking is that if God is the one responsible for these NDEs, then I would expect for there to be order and reason for these experiences being the way they are for each individual. I would also expect for them to be compatible with the bible.

There are people who were born blind who have NDEs and they can actually SEE during their NDEs. It's hard to think that God wouldn't be responsible for that experience.

 

[reba]

Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

I'm not sure that it would be important how many NDE's are true or even which specific ones for that matter. I think the bigger point there is that any of them are true, or some of them are true. That's all that's needed because, like you say, there's really only one thing that we get out of them. Encouraged faith. That God is active and doing many things in the world. It's good to hear the NDE's where they go to hell occasionally also, but they're not as fun to listen to as the heaven ones.

I've been hearing stories about visitations also. They seem to be on the increase.

I only said that because it seems some NDEs are debated. So gathering specifics from them that are used to teach might be a gray area. Danta's book about traveling through the levels of hell comes to mind. I know it was written a few centeries ago but it seems to hold done cultural sway still. Honestly I would know what to day about it but woukd take it with a grain of salt.

Other stories I hear that are more modern, I'd put more faith in but I guess not enough to put a definative "this is how things will be when we die" kind of stance.

Sorry if I said something I didn't mean to say. I think there's merrit to NDE. I'm just not confidant in them to take more then encouragement or warnings from them.