Do people born in the US have a Salvation advantage?

[Soma-Sight]

Do we as members of the USA have an advantage over those in the rainforest or in the Mid east to be saved?

Think about it......

We are bombarded with the conservative media, Dr. Laura, Paul Mcgwuire, Dennis Praiger, etc....

We have TBN, we have missionaries everywhere handing out the "word" to the masses.....

We have no shortage of Bibles and groups that can tell us EXACTLY what to do to be saved.....

We have the advantage of being able to worship as we please...

In the Mid East you would get killed for half the stuff that goes on here......

IT SEEMS TO ME IN THESE LAST DAYS THAT THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE THAT GET IN THE PEARLY GATES WILL BE AMERICAN, REPUBLICAN, FUNDAMENTALIST BIBLE BELIEVERS!

IF SO HOW IS THIS INDICATIVE OF AN ALL LOVING, ALL FAIR GOD?

 

[lovely]

Soma,

I read an artical once on some persecuted Christians in China. These folks were being jailed for holding services, and even singing hymns, in their own home. I wish I could find the eact article...but I will paraphrase. The Missionary that was featured was from China. The author asked him about the difficulties of being a believer in such an enviroment. He said that it was not difficult at all because the line of right and wrong was clearly marked. All they had to do was serve God, in a country that was without Him, it was worth any risk. He then asked the author of the article a question. It was something like how do people in America do it with all the false teachings, and temptations there? To him, THAT was a real testimony of the faith in God's power.

The second point I would like to make, is that just because people have the Word, does not mean they hear it. In fact, it is almost cliche' now in America to call yourself a Christian. People associate Christians with other cultural things like apple pie, baseball, etc. It does not mean that we have more true believers...it simply means that we may possibly have many cultural Christians. Just as other countries have cultures of their own religions. And, those in other countries hear because of missionarys, and accept the truth because they have an ear to hear. I was raised by an atheist, but I believed. Many grow up in Christian homes, and do not believe at all.

 

[Quath]

Look back to around 300 AD, Rome had a salvation advantage over Africa, Hawaii and China since these places never heard of Jesus. Therefore, they had no choice but to go to hell since they never heard of Jesus whereas the people of Rome did.

So it seems location matters.

Quath

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Look back to around 300 AD, Rome had a salvation advantage over Africa, Hawaii and China since these places never heard of Jesus. Therefore, they had no choice but to go to hell since they never heard of Jesus whereas the people of Rome did.

So it seems location matters.

Quath

.....if you buy into Evangelical soteriology. Eastern Orthodox theology, on the other hand would tell you that you may be at greater risk when you're "in the know." Or, as Christ said "to they whom much is given, much is expected."

Parenthetically, Africa- North Africa- was a center of Christianity (Alexandria) in 300 AD.

 

[Quath]

.....if you buy into Evangelical soteriology. Eastern Orthodox theology, on the other hand would tell you that you may be at greater risk when you're "in the know." Or, as Christ said "to they whom much is given, much is expected."

Parenthetically, Africa- North Africa- was a center of Christianity (Alexandria) in 300 AD.

You are right.

My ex-girlfriend was Mormon. She said she was taught that everyone goes to heaven. The best Mormons make it to the best level of heaven. The backsliders of Mormonism are cursed and sound like that go to hell. (This was all confusing to me.) She said it had to do with "knowing and rejecting." So that led to the logical conclusion, that if everyone was ignorant of Mormonism, then noone would go to hell. So if Mormons wanted to save everyone, they should forget all they know and let the religion dry up.

Somehow, I doubt they would agree with my logic.

Quatj

 

[ThinkerMan]

Quatj

Is that a spanish pronunctiation of the "j" Quath? Like Mojave?

It makes you sound much more like an Aztec God...I suggest you go with it.

 

[Vic C.]

.....if you buy into Evangelical soteriology.

I have NO idea what you mean by that statement.

Eastern Orthodox theology, on the other hand would tell you that you may be at greater risk when you're "in the know." Or, as Christ said "to they whom much is given, much is expected."...

Ah, you consider that Eastern Orthodox theology? I see it throughout the NT. Paul gives us a fine example of it in Romans 2. It's what I believe also and I am cosidered an Evangelical.

Back to the OP. No Soma, it only gives us an advantage to hear and spread the Gospel. Are you suggesting that those who live and die, never hearing the Gospel preached to them, may not get saved? I think we've been down this road a few times... my soles (no pun intended) are almost worn through. :D

 

[Orthodox Christian]

.....if you buy into Evangelical soteriology. Eastern Orthodox theology, on the other hand would tell you that you may be at greater risk when you're "in the know." Or, as Christ said "to they whom much is given, much is expected."

Parenthetically, Africa- North Africa- was a center of Christianity (Alexandria) in 300 AD.

You are right.

My ex-girlfriend was Mormon. She said she was taught that everyone goes to heaven. The best Mormons make it to the best level of heaven. The backsliders of Mormonism are cursed and sound like that go to hell. (This was all confusing to me.) She said it had to do with "knowing and rejecting." So that led to the logical conclusion, that if everyone was ignorant of Mormonism, then noone would go to hell. So if Mormons wanted to save everyone, they should forget all they know and let the religion dry up.

Somehow, I doubt they would agree with my logic.

Quatj

lol
Ah, the paradoxes

On a much more sober note....
If the Innocents- those children who die in abortions- go directly to heaven- would it not be truly, wonderfully kind for all children to be aborted?

I don't imagine so. Who knows what each one could have been to others.



The whole salvation by ignorance of the Savior and/or the need to be saved doesn't work, for claimed ignorance of the Law doesn't work in traffic court, and it apparently will not work in the Day of Judgement, either. (If one believes that there is such a thing, as I do).

Paul points out that nature itself reveals what is right (Romans chapter one). So rather than being exempt from Judgement, the uninitiated (those who have not heard the gospel) will be judged, presumably, based upon what they came to know and do and be.

If there is a God- and I do believe there is- and if He reveals Himself by grace to those who call themselves Christians- then they most certainly will face a stricter judgement- for they have been given both knowledge and grace- and perhaps, wisdom.

Yet these Fundmaentalists are so certain of their righteousness and so very certain of your unrighteousness (according to them).

Each of us should look to ourselves, whatever we believe. If there is a Judgement, then we will have done well to do so. If there is not, we should have still become better humans in the process.

There, that's my two cents and then some.

James

 

[Orthodox Christian]

.....if you buy into Evangelical soteriology.

I have NO idea what you mean by that statement.

It was in reply to "seems that location matters'- which was another way of saying, if you are born in a place where the gospel is not preached, you are simply on your way to what I have heard Evangelical ministers refer to as "a Christless eternity."

They mean hell.

by 'Evangelical soteriology' I am referring to the commonly held doctrines of Evangelicalism regarding salvation.

Back to the OP. No Soma, it only gives us an advantage to hear and spread the Gospel. Are you suggesting that those who live and die, never hearing the Gospel preached to them, may not get saved? I think we've been down this road a few times... my soles (no pun intended) are almost worn through. :D

See above- this is in fact the logical summation of Evangelical doctrines of salvation.

example from an Evangelical site-

If we assume that those who never hear the Gospel are granted mercy from God, we will run into a terrible problem. If people who never hear the Gospel are saved…we should make sure that no one ever hears the Gospel. The worst thing we could do would be share the Gospel with a person and have him or her reject it. If that were to happen, he or she would be condemned. People who do not hear the Gospel must be condemned, or else there is no motive for evangelism. Why run the risk of people possibly rejecting the Gospel and condemning themselves – when they were previously saved because they had never heard the Gospel?

Ah, condemned by location. I guess my realtor was right- it's all about location, location, location.

 

[John the Baptist]

Christ's Words are clear in Luke 12:47-48
---John

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Christ's Words are clear in Luke 12:47-48
---John

Whaddaya know- for once I agree with JtB

 

[John the Baptist]

[quote="John the Baptist":a92eb]Christ's Words are clear in Luke 12:47-48
---John

Whaddaya know- for once I agree with JtB[/quote:a92eb]

*****
John here: I did not say anything? God's Word did. But lets not trust to luck, see another verse in Ezekiel 18:24-28

 

[Vic C.]

[quote="John the Baptist":d9f3b]Christ's Words are clear in Luke 12:47-48
---John

Whaddaya know- for once I agree with JtB[/quote:d9f3b]
I can agree with that too. Maybe the problem was miscommunication on my part. This is what I was suggesting to Soma; that those who never heard the Gospel, would not be judged as harshly as those who heard but continued to reject. I condemn no one due to their location... or misfortune.

 

[videocrafter]

[quote="John the Baptist":d9601]Christ's Words are clear in Luke 12:47-48
---John

Whaddaya know- for once I agree with JtB

I can agree with that too... that those who never heard the Gospel, would not be judged as harshly as those who heard but continued to reject. [/quote:d9601]

Yes I also agree that this passage indicates different levels or degrees of punishment in hell as well as rewards in heaven. Here's a message specifically on this subject and passage:

Much Given - Much Required

 

[Gary]

...by 'Evangelical soteriology' I am referring to the commonly held doctrines of Evangelicalism regarding salvation.

example from an Evangelical site-

If we assume that those who never hear the Gospel are granted mercy from God, we will run into a terrible problem. If people who never hear the Gospel are saved…we should make sure that no one ever hears the Gospel. The worst thing we could do would be share the Gospel with a person and have him or her reject it. If that were to happen, he or she would be condemned. People who do not hear the Gospel must be condemned, or else there is no motive for evangelism. Why run the risk of people possibly rejecting the Gospel and condemning themselves – when they were previously saved because they had never heard the Gospel?

So let us rather read the quote IN CONTEXT!

This is where OC copy-n-pasted from:
http://www.gotquestions.org/never-heard.html

What happens to those who have never heard about Jesus?

Question: "What happens to people who never have a chance to hear about Jesus? Will God condemn a person who has never heard about Him?"

Answer: All people are accountable to God whether they have “heard about Him†or not. The Bible tells us that God has clearly revealed Himself in nature (Romans 1:20) and in the hearts of people (Ecclesiastes 3:11). The problem is that the human race is sinful; we all reject this knowledge of God and rebel against Him (Romans 1:21-23). Apart from God's grace, God would give us over to the sinful desires of our hearts, allowing us to discover how useless and miserable life is apart from Him. This He does for those who reject Him (Romans 1:24-32).

In reality, it is not that some people have not heard about God. Rather, the problem is that they have rejected what they have heard and what is readily seen in nature. Deuteronomy 4:29 proclaims, “But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul.†This verse teaches an important principle: everyone who truly seeks after God will find Him. If a person truly desires to know God, God will make Himself known.

The problem is, “there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God†(Romans 3:11). People reject the knowledge of God that is present in nature and in their own heart, and instead decide to worship a “god†of their own creation. It is foolish to debate the fairness of God sending someone to hell who never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel of Christ. People are responsible to God for what God has already revealed to them. The Bible says that people reject this knowledge, and therefore God is just in condemning them to hell.

• Instead of debating the fate of those who have never heard, we, as Christians, should be doing our best to make sure that they hear. We are called to spread the Gospel throughout the nations (Matthew 28:19-20; Acts 1:8). The fact that we know people reject the knowledge of God revealed in nature must motivate us to proclaim the good news of salvation through Jesus Christ. Only through accepting the Gospel of God’s grace through the Lord Jesus Christ can people be saved from their sins and rescued from an eternity apart from God in hell.

If we assume that those who never hear the Gospel are granted mercy from God, we will run into a terrible problem. If people who never hear the Gospel are saved…we should make sure that no one ever hears the Gospel. The worst thing we could do would be share the Gospel with a person and have him or her reject it. If that were to happen, he or she would be condemned. People who do not hear the Gospel must be condemned, or else there is no motive for evangelism. Why run the risk of people possibly rejecting the Gospel and condemning themselves – when they were previously saved because they had never heard the Gospel?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Related Topics:
What is the plan of salvation?
What happened to the people who believed in God before Jesus came?
What happens to babies and young children when they die? Where do I find the age of accountability in the Bible?
Do mentally challenged people go to heaven?
What does it mean to be a born again Christian?

http://www.gotquestions.org/never-heard.html

 

[Orthodox Christian]

...by 'Evangelical soteriology' I am referring to the commonly held doctrines of Evangelicalism regarding salvation.

example from an Evangelical site-

If we assume that those who never hear the Gospel are granted mercy from God, we will run into a terrible problem. If people who never hear the Gospel are saved…we should make sure that no one ever hears the Gospel. The worst thing we could do would be share the Gospel with a person and have him or her reject it. If that were to happen, he or she would be condemned. People who do not hear the Gospel must be condemned, or else there is no motive for evangelism. Why run the risk of people possibly rejecting the Gospel and condemning themselves – when they were previously saved because they had never heard the Gospel?

So let us rather read the quote IN CONTEXT!

This is where OC copy-n-pasted from:
http://www.gotquestions.org/never-heard.html

What happens to those who have never heard about Jesus?

Question: "What happens to people who never have a chance to hear about Jesus? Will God condemn a person who has never heard about Him?"

Answer: All people are accountable to God whether they have “heard about Him†or not. The Bible tells us that God has clearly revealed Himself in nature (Romans 1:20) and in the hearts of people (Ecclesiastes 3:11). The problem is that the human race is sinful; we all reject this knowledge of God and rebel against Him (Romans 1:21-23). Apart from God's grace, God would give us over to the sinful desires of our hearts, allowing us to discover how useless and miserable life is apart from Him. This He does for those who reject Him (Romans 1:24-32).

In reality, it is not that some people have not heard about God. Rather, the problem is that they have rejected what they have heard and what is readily seen in nature. Deuteronomy 4:29 proclaims, “But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul.†This verse teaches an important principle: everyone who truly seeks after God will find Him. If a person truly desires to know God, God will make Himself known.
This section has been, essentially, what I stated above in my reply to Quath.
The problem is, “there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God†(Romans 3:11). People reject the knowledge of God that is present in nature and in their own heart, and instead decide to worship a “god†of their own creation. It is foolish to debate the fairness of God sending someone to hell who never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel of Christ. People are responsible to God for what God has already revealed to them. The Bible says that people reject this knowledge, and therefore God is just in condemning them to hell.

• Instead of debating the fate of those who have never heard, we, as Christians, should be doing our best to make sure that they hear. We are called to spread the Gospel throughout the nations (Matthew 28:19-20; Acts 1:8). The fact that we know people reject the knowledge of God revealed in nature must motivate us to proclaim the good news of salvation through Jesus Christ. Only through accepting the Gospel of God’s grace through the Lord Jesus Christ can people be saved from their sins and rescued from an eternity apart from God in hell.

If we assume that those who never hear the Gospel are granted mercy from God, we will run into a terrible problem. If people who never hear the Gospel are saved…we should make sure that no one ever hears the Gospel. The worst thing we could do would be share the Gospel with a person and have him or her reject it. If that were to happen, he or she would be condemned. People who do not hear the Gospel must be condemned, or else there is no motive for evangelism. Why run the risk of people possibly rejecting the Gospel and condemning themselves – when they were previously saved because they had never heard the Gospel?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Related Topics:
What is the plan of salvation?
What happened to the people who believed in God before Jesus came?
What happens to babies and young children when they die? Where do I find the age of accountability in the Bible?
Do mentally challenged people go to heaven?
What does it mean to be a born again Christian?

http://www.gotquestions.org/never-heard.html

and thus, the remainder of the article (context) says EXACTLY WHAT I EXCERPTED.
So what exactly is your point, Gary- do you dispute that those who have not heard of Christ are damned?

 

[videocrafter]

Question: "What happens to people who never have a chance to hear about Jesus? Will God condemn a person who has never heard about Him?"

Answer: All people are accountable to God whether they have “heard about Him†or not.

That's good stuff Gary, their statement of faithis right on! thanks for the link!

 

[Vic C.]

Thanks for posting the article Gary. Despite reading it in it's context, I still have issues with some of the points in OC's outtake.

If we assume that those who never hear the Gospel are granted mercy from God, we will run into a terrible problem. If people who never hear the Gospel are saved…we should make sure that no one ever hears the Gospel.

Right there I believe they are making assumptions. It assumes that those who never hear the Gospel are saved by God's mercy. While I don't feel they are automatically saved, I believe we question the character of God if we think He will unfairly judge those who never heard the Gospel, or are incapable of understanding the Gospel (i.e.- mentally handicapped persons) or were too young to understand and died, etc. I thank the Good Lord that He doesn't see His Creation in the same light as we.

The worst thing we could do would be share the Gospel with a person and have him or her reject it. If that were to happen, he or she would be condemned.

Speaking of light, what I have gotten from being saved is now I get to live in the light of God's knowledge and wisdom, something I was not able to experience before I was saved. This is, in part, the Good News. Remember, I said, in part. Sure they run the risk of the penalties of rejecting the Gospel, but we are still commanded the spread the Good News nonetheless.

People who do not hear the Gospel must be condemned, or else there is no motive for evangelism. Why run the risk of people possibly rejecting the Gospel and condemning themselves – when they were previously saved because they had never heard the Gospel?

Again, the writer is assuming they are saved and not judged. We need to spread the Good News to bring hope of an everlasting life in Heaven with the Lord to the world. What the world does with this news is between them and God.

That site brings up some interesting questions that must be explored and possibly answered if we are to fully understand salvation.

Related Topics:
What is the plan of salvation?
What happened to the people who believed in God before Jesus came?
What happens to babies and young children when they die? Where do I find the age of accountability in the Bible?
Do mentally challenged people go to heaven?

It is unfortunate though this those who DO hear, but continue to reject, will not be saved. I think the Bible as a whole teaches us that there are no second chances for those who were preached the Gospel but rejected it. Even those in the OT heard it in one form or another.

 

[videocrafter]

Vic, I agree with everything your saying, but I think you have misinterputed the article. The article is saying the same thing you are saying. I think you might be overlooking the word "If"

Much Given - Much Required

 

[Vic C.]

Vic, I agree with everything your saying, but I think you have misinterputed the article. The article is saying the same thing you are saying. I think you might be overlooking the word "If"

Much Given - Much Required

:-D You may be right rabbit :-D but doesn't the word "if" connote a certain contition or assumption to the statement in which it is used?