V
videocrafter
Guest
Vic said:
The article is not assuming that those who never hear the Gospel are going to be granted mercy. It's stating they will not receive mercy, thet they will still be accountable to God.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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The article is not assuming that those who never hear the Gospel are going to be granted mercy. It's stating they will not receive mercy, thet they will still be accountable to God.
J
John the Baptist
Guest
Romans 2:14-15. Is all inclusive. The Christ that they did know, they learned from Their (the Godheads) second Everlasting Gospel. Nature! See also Genesis 6:3 for the Lord's STRIVING!
The ETERNAL COVENANT was where? IN THEIR HEARTS! See Romans 2:28-29 for who a True Jew is!! They had never even heard of the Christ as we preach Him today, (most) of 'only believe', or as in the written Word.
These ones attested that Christ was totally correct in saying that 'YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN.' And they were. But not all, huh?
---John
The ETERNAL COVENANT was where? IN THEIR HEARTS! See Romans 2:28-29 for who a True Jew is!! They had never even heard of the Christ as we preach Him today, (most) of 'only believe', or as in the written Word.
These ones attested that Christ was totally correct in saying that 'YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN.' And they were. But not all, huh?
---John
S
Solo
Guest
Do people in the US to hear or read the gospel of salvation more than those that are in the rain forest and/or middle east? Yes.
Do the people in the US have an advantage of being saved? Yes.
When Jesus preached in his own country, doubt and unbelief hurt the spreading of the gospel. Those in his own country were hindered in accepting the gospel because of the unbelief. The US has been a country with a strong belief in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob while those in other nations have been riddled with beliefs that bring doubt and unbelief on the gospel of Jesus Christ.
54 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works? 55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? 56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things? 57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house. 58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief. Matthew 13:54-57
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Do the people in the US have an advantage of being saved? Yes.
When Jesus preached in his own country, doubt and unbelief hurt the spreading of the gospel. Those in his own country were hindered in accepting the gospel because of the unbelief. The US has been a country with a strong belief in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob while those in other nations have been riddled with beliefs that bring doubt and unbelief on the gospel of Jesus Christ.
54 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works? 55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? 56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things? 57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house. 58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief. Matthew 13:54-57
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
D
DivineNames
Guest
"In perhaps ninety-nine per cent of cases the religion to which one adheres (or which one specifically rejects) is selected by the accident of birth. When someone is born into a devout Muslim family in Pakistan or Egypt or Indonesia, it will nearly always be a safe bet that he or she will become a Muslim, either observant or nonobservant. When someone is born into a devout Christian family in Italy or Mexico, it will nearly always be a safe bet that he or she will become a Catholic Christian, again either observant or nonobservant. And so on. And of course it normally seems obvious that the religion that has been part of one from infancy is normative and basically superior to all others.
This relativity of religious conviction to the circumstances of birth and upbringing is so obvious that we seldom stop to think about it. But it nevertheless has immense significance. If there is a religious 'plus', a spiritual gain, advantage, benefit, in being a Christian rather than a Jew, Muslim, Hindu or Buddhist, then there is a corresponding 'minus', a spiritual loss or disadvantage, in being a Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim or Jew. It then becomes a proper question why only a minority of the human race, have been awarded this religious 'plus'. For if this 'plus' is a reality, divine providence has favoured those born into a Christian society over those born in non-Christian countries. And the greater the religious 'plus' for Christians, the greater the 'minus' for everyone else and the greater the discrimination that needs to be accounted for in our theology. Should we conclude that we who have been born within the reach of the gospel are God's chosen people, objects of a greater divine love than the rest of the human race? But then, on the other hand, do we not believe that God loves all God's creatures with an equal and unlimited love?"
"Suppose we think of salvation in a much more concrete and empirically observable way as an actual change in men and women from natural self-centredness to, in theistic terms, God-centredness, or in more general terms, a new orientation centred in the Ultimate, the Real, as conceived and experienced within one's own tradition. Salvation in this sense is the central concern of each of the great world religions. Within Christianity it is conceptualized and experienced as the state in which Paul could say, 'It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me' (Gal. 2:20, RSV). Within Judaism it is conceived and experienced as the joy and responsibility of life lived in accordance with God's Torah. Within Islam it is conceived and experienced as a personal self-surrender to God in a life lived according to God's revealed commands. With Advaitic Hinduism it is conceived and experienced as a transcending of the ego and discovery of unity with the eternal reality of Brahman. Within Buddhism it is conceived and experienced as a loss of the ego point of view in a discovery of the Buddha nature of the universal interdependent process of which we are all part. And in each case this transformation of human existence from self-centredness to Reality-centredness is reached by a moral and spiritual path.
So if we understand by salvation the transition to a life centred in the Divine, the Ultimate, the Real, we can properly look about us for the signs of it. To what extent is this transformation actually taking place among Christians, among Jews, among Muslims, among Hindus, among Buddhists? I suggest that, so far as we can tell, it is taking place to much the same extent within each of these traditions. It is true that we have no organized evidence or statistics to establish this. But we can properly put the issue the other way round. If anyone asserts that Christians in general are morally and spiritually better human beings than Jews, Muslims, Hindus, or Buddhists in general, the onus is on them to produce the evidence for this. It cannot simply be affirmed a priori, without regard to the concrete realities of human life."
John Hick (2001) 'The Theological Challenge of Religious Pluralism' in John Hick & Brian Hebblethwaite (eds) Christianity and Other Religions: Selected Readings (Glasgow: Oneworld Publications)
This relativity of religious conviction to the circumstances of birth and upbringing is so obvious that we seldom stop to think about it. But it nevertheless has immense significance. If there is a religious 'plus', a spiritual gain, advantage, benefit, in being a Christian rather than a Jew, Muslim, Hindu or Buddhist, then there is a corresponding 'minus', a spiritual loss or disadvantage, in being a Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim or Jew. It then becomes a proper question why only a minority of the human race, have been awarded this religious 'plus'. For if this 'plus' is a reality, divine providence has favoured those born into a Christian society over those born in non-Christian countries. And the greater the religious 'plus' for Christians, the greater the 'minus' for everyone else and the greater the discrimination that needs to be accounted for in our theology. Should we conclude that we who have been born within the reach of the gospel are God's chosen people, objects of a greater divine love than the rest of the human race? But then, on the other hand, do we not believe that God loves all God's creatures with an equal and unlimited love?"
"Suppose we think of salvation in a much more concrete and empirically observable way as an actual change in men and women from natural self-centredness to, in theistic terms, God-centredness, or in more general terms, a new orientation centred in the Ultimate, the Real, as conceived and experienced within one's own tradition. Salvation in this sense is the central concern of each of the great world religions. Within Christianity it is conceptualized and experienced as the state in which Paul could say, 'It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me' (Gal. 2:20, RSV). Within Judaism it is conceived and experienced as the joy and responsibility of life lived in accordance with God's Torah. Within Islam it is conceived and experienced as a personal self-surrender to God in a life lived according to God's revealed commands. With Advaitic Hinduism it is conceived and experienced as a transcending of the ego and discovery of unity with the eternal reality of Brahman. Within Buddhism it is conceived and experienced as a loss of the ego point of view in a discovery of the Buddha nature of the universal interdependent process of which we are all part. And in each case this transformation of human existence from self-centredness to Reality-centredness is reached by a moral and spiritual path.
So if we understand by salvation the transition to a life centred in the Divine, the Ultimate, the Real, we can properly look about us for the signs of it. To what extent is this transformation actually taking place among Christians, among Jews, among Muslims, among Hindus, among Buddhists? I suggest that, so far as we can tell, it is taking place to much the same extent within each of these traditions. It is true that we have no organized evidence or statistics to establish this. But we can properly put the issue the other way round. If anyone asserts that Christians in general are morally and spiritually better human beings than Jews, Muslims, Hindus, or Buddhists in general, the onus is on them to produce the evidence for this. It cannot simply be affirmed a priori, without regard to the concrete realities of human life."
John Hick (2001) 'The Theological Challenge of Religious Pluralism' in John Hick & Brian Hebblethwaite (eds) Christianity and Other Religions: Selected Readings (Glasgow: Oneworld Publications)
S
Solo
Guest
The fallacy of most ecumenical proponents is that they misinterpret or fail to understand the Biblical truth.
Christians are no better than those of other religions. In fact, the Apostle Paul called himself the chiefest of sinners. Christians are those who have believed the God of creation, while those of other religions are practicing man-made institutions or demonic instruction introduced over the years.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:18
Jesus gave the command to go into all the world teaching all nations to observe all things that Jesus commanded, and to baptize them in the name of the Father, Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Matthew 28:19-20
No matter whether individuals have heard of Jesus or not, they have no excuse because the things of God are revealed to each one by the creation.
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Romans 1:16-32
Christians are no better than those of other religions. In fact, the Apostle Paul called himself the chiefest of sinners. Christians are those who have believed the God of creation, while those of other religions are practicing man-made institutions or demonic instruction introduced over the years.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:18
Jesus gave the command to go into all the world teaching all nations to observe all things that Jesus commanded, and to baptize them in the name of the Father, Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Matthew 28:19-20
No matter whether individuals have heard of Jesus or not, they have no excuse because the things of God are revealed to each one by the creation.
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Romans 1:16-32
J
John the Baptist
Guest
Vic said:
*****
Perhaps we are not of age yet?? :fadein:
D
DivineNames
Guest
Solo said:
Which could be seen as supporting what Hick was saying.
:D
S
Solo
Guest
They just have a savior that has forgiven them.DivineNames said:
S
Soma-Sight
Guest
For the record Krishna says that followers should "not grieve for past sins as they will be forgiven"
J
John the Baptist
Guest
Vic said:
***
And WHEN??
D
DivineNames
Guest
Hick said:
2 Corinthians 3:18 (NIV)
"And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit."
S
Solo
Guest
Not all Christs are of God according to the teachings of Jesus. In fact, as we get closer to his return, more and more false Christs will come to be, as in the New Age movement. Krishna is a Christ consciousness to some, but false just the same.
S
Soma-Sight
Guest
I cant beleive there is not more YESES for this......
D
D46
Guest
I don't think we have a better salvation advantage in light of the scriptures.
Hebrews 8:11 (KJV) And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
We DO have an advantage of hearing the Gospel probably moreso than many other geographical places...that's why there's missionaries. I don't believe the man in Kentucky has any more an advantage of being saved than someone in England or France, however. I suppose there's missionaries on all four continents bringing the word of God to those who may never hear it otherwise.
Hebrews 8:11 (KJV) And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
We DO have an advantage of hearing the Gospel probably moreso than many other geographical places...that's why there's missionaries. I don't believe the man in Kentucky has any more an advantage of being saved than someone in England or France, however. I suppose there's missionaries on all four continents bringing the word of God to those who may never hear it otherwise.