Do those believing in “grace only” fear the Lord?

[ezra]

Bro', I explained once before to you ...
... from evangelists returning from visiting churches
... from God's messages to His prophets/watchmen
(an excerpt from one of these messages follows:
"shepherds leading multitudes to hell")

written documentation please

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

If you didn't have faith you would of never got on.

That's exactly the foundation I mean by faith as well. If you believe in something you act on that belief. If you didn't believe you would never have gotten on the bus.

Nowadays though I hear of belief as if it is just need opinion. Reducing people's commitment of faith and belief to just having an opinion about something and not having something you're willing to act on. I see this kind of persuasion when nonbelievers critize Christian's faith. They present it as if it's just an opinion that they should keep to themselves and not act on. It's sad that belief and faith as a concept can be just as fickle among believers too.

I honestly think if we focus on what it means to believe and to be faithful that will flush out the debate of grace versus obedience. Both grace and obedience are supported in the bible, for young Christians that don't yet know what it means to be faithful, as well as to mature Christians that have forgotten what it means to struggle greatly in our sins and worry over our salvation.

 

[Senior]

If the Holy Spirit indwells a man then the Spirit will bear good fruit.

Jesus says believers bearing good fruit go to heaven.
Jesus says believers not bearing good fruit go to hell.
So, Jesus decides who is who?

The whole entire NT is about BACs choosing to be
slaves of sin leading to eternal death
or ...
slaves of God, who are ...
slaves of obedience leading to righteousness
slaves of righteousness leading to holiness.

Do you believe my signature?

 

[williamt]

The whole entire NT is about BACs choosing to be
slaves of sin leading to eternal death
or ...
slaves of God
slaves of obedience leading to righteousness
slaves of righteousness leading to holiness.

Do you believe my signature?

Of course I agree with the Scriptures. Again, you're going to have to deal with all those Scriptures which supports original sin, total depravity, and total inability.

The natural man is a slave to sin, that is his nature and natural disposition. No one is neutral, all are born in Adam.

And of course I believe one is either a slave to sin and the devil or to God. However, no man can come to Jesus Christ lest they were elected, called, and regenerated. Those God calls will come, lest you want to contend that man's will is more powerful than God's?

Question, if a reprobate or a natural man that is at enmity against God, as we all were says I don't want God, as we all had, and God says I want that man does God have the ability to regenerate a man and draw them to Himself? Or does man's free will demonstrate more power than God? Who's sovereign exactly in your world?

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

I firmly stand by my position. The doctrine of the devil is found in Genesis 3:5: when Satan, disguised as a serpent, said to Eve, “For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.” Here are the double lies being offered to Eve springing out of the same principle behind his botched coup attempt; first, that she would be like gods, and thus independent, able to rule over herself apart from God, and secondly, there is not one God, but many gods; each is sovereign over himself or herself.

That's an autonomous and/or libertarian will. What you're referring to is simply a choice and a decision from which will be held to the person for making. You have to deal with all the Scriptures I previously listed and prove that there is an autonomous or libertarian will other than from the devil. There is no doubt that choices are given if that's what you mean by free will, and there's no doubt that a free will offering is also given in Scripture (one not compelled by the law), but you'll not find an autonomous or libertarian will other than in Genesis 3:5.

Now whose going to contend for the truth of the devil's lies?

STEP BACK A SECOND HERE! Your accusations have no merit here, nor do your conclusions. But before moving toward in a debate that holds no merit, I ask you to step away from your accusing tone.

Should you not recognize that we are all Christians here gathered for each other's well being as well as our own? That we are here to gain a better understanding among our brothers and sisters as well as to offer our own?

If that is so then the divisive talk of doctrines of evil has no place here. At least not unless there really is a threat within these kinds of doctrines.

Back up from this attitude of yours so that we can go forward in to the matter from the bible.

Without going into verses that teach to repent, to turn from evil, and from God giving commands so that we will follow them (showing we have a choice and a responsibility in the matter). Without even going to the bible I can confront that we have choices because of how we live our lives. We choose too many things to say we have no choice. We suffer the consequences of bad choices, as well as real the benefits of good ones. And though we have God to thank for our results for what He allowed to be accomplished and what to struggle through, we still have the responsibility to hold on our own the choices we've made. They are our burden to bare, our guilt that Jesus came and died for.

 

[williamt]

STEP BACK A SECOND HERE! Your accusations have no merit here, nor do your conclusions. But before moving toward in a debate that holds no merit, I ask you to step away from your accusing tone.

Should you not recognize that we are all Christians here gathered for each other's well being as well as our own? That we are here to gain a better understanding among our brothers and sisters as well as to offer our own?

If that is so then the divisive talk of doctrines of evil has no place here. At least not unless there really is a threat within these kinds of doctrines.

Back up from this attitude of yours so that we can go forward in to the matter from the bible.

Without going into verses that teach to repent, to turn from evil, and from God giving commands so that we will follow them (showing we have a choice and a responsibility in the matter). Without even going to the bible I can confront that we have choices because of how we live our lives. We choose too many things to say we have no choice. We suffer the consequences of bad choices, as well as real the benefits of good ones. And though we have God to thank for our results for what He allowed to be accomplished and what to struggle through, we still have the responsibility to hold on our own the choices we've made. They are our burden to bare, our guilt that Jesus came and died for.

Hey ma! Look no Scripture.

What are you the tone police?

I'm outta here.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Acts 3:19

Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord.

Deuteronomy 11:26-28

26 See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse— 27 the blessing if you obey the commands of the Lord your God that I am giving you today. 28 the curse if you disobey the commands of the Lord your God and turn from the way that I command you today by following other gods, which you have not known.

williamt, if you must go then go. Better that you leave under your assumption of winning a debate, then to troll on trying to divide Christians up.

 

[williamt]

@williamt, if you must go then go. Better that you leave under your assumption of winning a debate, then to troll on trying to divide Christians up.

Again, again, and again, no one is suggesting that the Elect will not repent.

After all doctrine doesn't divide the wheat from the tares or the sheep from the goats. What's most important is that we're one big happy family and condone any heretical or apostates under the same roof. Because love is ignoring all those things including worshiping the father in spirit and truth. <sarcasm>

1 Corinthians 11:19

In all seriousness, we can have both, we don't have to "choose" between heresy and fellowship.

And really, I'm outta here because I must go and attend to others.

 

[Senior]

Question, if a reprobate or a natural man that is at enmity against God, as we all were says I don't want God, as we all had, and God says I want that man, does God have the ability to regenerate a man and draw them to Himself? Or does man's free will demonstrate more power than God? Who's sovereign exactly in your world?

In my world, God does not force an unwilling soul to come to Him. God has many many to choose from, and He certainly does not need any who do not want Him.

We know from the NT that BACs were chosen and called.
But, was everyone in the world chosen and called?
IMO, it is obvious that not everyone is chosen and called.

 

[williamt]

In my world, God does not force an unwilling soul to come to Him. God has many many to choose from, and He certainly does not need any who do not want Him.

Thanks for not bothering to refute a single point or verse put to you.

God doesn't "force" anyone, he regenerates ....... yak yak yak yak.

 

[Truthfrees]

Hey ma! Look no Scripture.

What are you the tone police?

I'm outta here.

please speak to people with respect when discussing the topic or you will lose your privilege to post in this thread

 

[JLB]

I listed a proper theological definition from theopedia and can provide more from credible sources.

Please post the link and reference the source.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Man is incapable of first choosing God (synergism) without being regenerated. Why? Because they are enslaved to Sin.

The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation.


For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16


again


Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:22-23

• you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit

It is man acting in harmony with grace, to obey the Gospel in order to be regenerated.


A person must have the grace of God upon them to obey the Gospel.


However it is still the person who must to the obeying, in order to be saved.


Man is not regenerated apart from his own free will, otherwise all would be saved.



JLB

 

[JLB]

No doubt, none of the Elect in the world (from every tribe, tongue and nation) shall perish. It is why we are still here.

The scripture is clear about who will receive eternal life.



For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:-6


Whosoever believes.

It doesn’t say whosoever is elected.


Based on this scripture, who in the world does God hate?




JLB

 

[ezra]

Thanks for not bothering to refute a single point or verse put to you.

God doesn't "force" anyone, he regenerates ....... yak yak yak yak.

so would it be fair or correct to say you hold to calvinist teaching?

 

[JLB]

Election (God’s choice of people to be saved)

This is the easy part that we all should agree upon, for we all know it’s not God’s will that any should perish... For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

“The Order of Salvation”

The order of Salvation according to the scriptures:


How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:14-17

1. God chooses of His own freewill to send a preacher to a city or region to preach the Gospel.

2. Those to whom He sends the preacher to preach the Gospel, in which they hear the word, the Gospel message, and receive faith and power to believe and obey what they hear.​

3. Those who choose to believe and obey the truth of God’s kingdom, do so by the Spirit of grace , in which they are regenerated.​

Note: Man being in the image and likeness of God has the ability to choose to sin or not.


If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.” Genesis 4:7


Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Romans 6:12-14





JLB

 

[Senior]

The scripture is clear about who will receive eternal life.
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:-6
Whosoever believes.
It doesn’t say whosoever is elected.
Based on this scripture, who in the world does God hate?

I guess I should post a thread on who believes and why, etc.
Because ... sorry ...
it's not the above ... it's much deeper than that.

 

[ezra]

I guess I should post a thread on who believes and why, etc.
Because ... sorry ...
it's not the above ... it's much deeper than that.

how much deeper than whosoever shall will

 

[JLB]

I guess I should post a thread on who believes and why, etc.
Because ... sorry ...
it's not the above ... it's much deeper than that.

Yes much deeper.


This quote is found in the thread -


https://christianforums.net/Fellows...understanding-biblical-words-and-terms.78426/


The Bible is its own best interpreter, in that the scriptures themselves define for us in some cases what a word or phrase means, either by context or by direct definition.


Contextually we must allow the scriptures to define for us the Authors intent and use of a word to convey His meaning to us.


Here is an example of a biblical definition -

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1


Here is the definition of faith according to the Strongs -

Faith pistis. Strongs 4102 - Noun


I. conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it
A. relating to God
i. the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ
B. relating to Christ
i. a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God
C. the religious beliefs of Christians
D. belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same
II. fidelity, faithfulness
A. the character of one who can be relied on



The Point: Bible dictionary’s, lexicons, and study guides are a good place to start, but are not necessarily the final say on how a biblical word is defined.


Believe: - pisteuō Strongs # G4100 - verb


The KJV translates Strong's G4100 in the following manner: believe (239x), commit unto(4x), commit to (one's) trust (1x), be committed unto (1x), be put in trust with (1x), be commit to one's trust (1x), believer (1x).


I. to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
A. of the thing believed
i. to credit, have confidence
B. in a moral or religious reference
i. used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
ii. to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith
iii. mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith
II. to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
A. to be intrusted with a thing



He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NKJV


He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB



It is noteworthy to understand that unbelief and disobedience are the same Greek word and are used interchangeably in the Bible based on translation.


Example: Unbelief - Disobedience



Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 4:6 KJV


Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, Hebrews 4:6 NKJV


The word “believe” as it relates to Christ and His gospel, commandments and doctrine should be understood as follows.

Believe - Trust, commit; submit to obey





JLB

 

[Senior]

The word “believe” as it relates to Christ and His gospel, commandments and doctrine should be understood as follows.
Believe - Trust, commit; submit to obey

Yes, thanks, JLB.
I forgot to put in the OP:
True saving faith = deep heart-felt belief
+ enduring faith + strong trust + obedience

There is no word in any language which embraces
all of the above.

I'm hearing those cries again, "Please, no more!"