Bible Study Do those not born-again go to Hell

[Rick W]

Topic continued from another thread

... but are you saying those not born-again go to hell?

If a person isn't "regenerated", which is to say acceptance of Jesus Christ as opposed to rebellion, then one must conclude that it's the desire to be without God. And I don't think God would make you be somewhere you don't want to be in the first place, that is, with Him in heaven.
Can one be with God in heaven without Christ? Deists believe so but that's not based on scripture.

 

[mutzrein]

... but are you saying those not born-again go to hell?

If a person isn't "regenerated", which is to say acceptance of Jesus Christ as opposed to rebellion, then one must conclude that it's the desire to be without God. And I don't think God would make you be somewhere you don't want to be in the first place, that is, with Him in heaven.
Can one be with God in heaven without Christ? Deists believe so but that's not based on scripture.

OK a couple of points here to ponder and a question.

This is a question that troubles many and it is not whether one can be in heaven without Christ. That wasn’t what I was asking. It is, ‘is a person who is not born again destined to hell?’

The ironic thing is you have already said, “ . . . I don't think God would make you be somewhere you don't want to be in the first place, that is, with Him in heaven.†Now I am only using your argument – which by the way is not sound - but nevertheless on that basis alone, if you were not born again it does not mean to say that you want to go to hell. So why would God make you go there.

What do you say of those who have never heard the gospel? What do you say of the handicapped who don’t have the intellect. What do you say of children who haven’t reached the age of understanding? None of these have chosen to go to hell. None of them are born again so therein lies the dilemma. What do you say happens to them?

 

[Rick W]

OK a couple of points here to ponder and a question.

This is a question that troubles many and it is not whether one can be in heaven without Christ. That wasn’t what I was asking. It is, ‘is a person who is not born again destined to hell?’

The ironic thing is you have already said, “ . . . I don't think God would make you be somewhere you don't want to be in the first place, that is, with Him in heaven.†Now I am only using your argument – which by the way is not sound - but nevertheless on that basis alone, if you were not born again it does not mean to say that you want to go to hell. So why would God make you go there.

He doesn't. That's the sad part of it. He'll wipe every tear but who will wipe His? He loves us enough that if we choose not to have God in this life then that decision will remain through freewill.
Ever try to make a child be someplace they don't want to be rebelling even to tantrum? Or try to hold something/someone in your arms that doesn't want to be there in the first place? It's tough. It'll wretch your heart out knowing full well that something or somebody is much better off with you than without. But He told us didn't He? Yet, many still push Him away. Avidly.

What do you say of those who have never heard the gospel?

That's to our shame isn't it?
Now if we don't reach them does that mean they have no chance? And since when does God need our help anyway? Remember, God used the unbeliever to do a devine act, the crucifiction of Christ. So due to our laziness or selfishness they hear not the Word. Should they be held accountable?
And there's something about sin without the law. Paul says it best in Romans chapter 7 asking if the law is against him.

Romans 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Romans 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

There's more in Romans if you back up a bit to get some context but I trust you know the scripture enough to know what I'm getting at.

What do you say of the handicapped who don’t have the intellect.

What intellect? Unless you're a total vegetable not to know love, to recieve and give love. We had a 37 year old fellow with the mind of a child in our congregation back in Salt Lake. He loved Jesus because he understood Jesus loved Him. That was enough for him. I sometimes wonder who the handicapped one really was. He's been an inspiration for me for a long time.

What do you say of children who haven’t reached the age of understanding?

Aren't we responsible to bring up our children with God? Are we not accountable for our children? The burden isn't theirs but ours. Man, I'd hate to see my son/daughter with me in Hell because I rebelled against the Word of God. Many think only of themselves in a lot of things though don't they? Just need a different way to look at it I suppose.

 

[mutzrein]

OK a couple of points here to ponder and a question.

This is a question that troubles many and it is not whether one can be in heaven without Christ. That wasn’t what I was asking. It is, ‘is a person who is not born again destined to hell?’

The ironic thing is you have already said, “ . . . I don't think God would make you be somewhere you don't want to be in the first place, that is, with Him in heaven.†Now I am only using your argument – which by the way is not sound - but nevertheless on that basis alone, if you were not born again it does not mean to say that you want to go to hell. So why would God make you go there.

He doesn't. That's the sad part of it. He'll wipe every tear but who will wipe His? He loves us enough that if we choose not to have God in this life then that decision will remain through freewill.
Ever try to make a child be someplace they don't want to be rebelling even to tantrum? Or try to hold something/someone in your arms that doesn't want to be there in the first place? It's tough. It'll wretch your heart out knowing full well that something or somebody is much better off with you than without. But He told us didn't He? Yet, many still push Him away. Avidly.

What do you say of those who have never heard the gospel?

That's to our shame isn't it?
Now if we don't reach them does that mean they have no chance? And since when does God need our help anyway? Remember, God used the unbeliever to do a devine act, the crucifiction of Christ. So due to our laziness or selfishness they hear not the Word. Should they be held accountable?
And there's something about sin without the law. Paul says it best in Romans chapter 7 asking if the law is against him.

Romans 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Romans 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

There's more in Romans if you back up a bit to get some context but I trust you know the scripture enough to know what I'm getting at.

[quote:47217]What do you say of the handicapped who don’t have the intellect.

What intellect? Unless you're a total vegetable not to know love, to recieve and give love. We had a 37 year old fellow with the mind of a child in our congregation back in Salt Lake. He loved Jesus because he understood Jesus loved Him. That was enough for him. I sometimes wonder who the handicapped one really was. He's been an inspiration for me for a long time.

What do you say of children who haven’t reached the age of understanding?

Aren't we responsible to bring up our children with God? Are we not accountable for our children? The burden isn't theirs but ours. Man, I'd hate to see my son/daughter with me in Hell because I rebelled against the Word of God. Many think only of themselves in a lot of things though don't they? Just need a different way to look at it I suppose.[/quote:47217]

Nice platitudes aren’t they – but that’s all I would say. Where is the foundation?
You know what has happened? We (Christendom) have developed such a distorted theology based on doctrines of men that when it comes to ‘tricky’ questions like this we try and find justification for a righteous God to not send such innocents to hell.

See, our theology says if you don’t go to heaven you go to hell. Meaning - if a person is not born again they would have to go to hell – right? BUT – we cannot see how God would do this so what do we do?

Aha!! – we look for a way to allow for these to be dealt with by God to appease our sense of justice. The problem is, it is not scriptural. So why do we do it?

The real problem is – we are not prepared to admit that our theologies are wrong. I mean we can’t even comprehend that, can we?

 

[Rick W]

You asked questions then made a rebuttal to a reply.
I'm interested in your answers to the questions you posed. Obviously you already had your answers before you asked.

"So why would God make you go there?

What do you say of those who have never heard the gospel?

What do you say of the handicapped who don’t have the intellect.

What do you say of children who haven’t reached the age of understanding?

 

[mutzrein]

You asked questions then made a rebuttal to a reply.
I'm interested in your answers to the questions you posed. Obviously you already had your answers before you asked.

"So why would God make you go there?

What do you say of those who have never heard the gospel?

What do you say of the handicapped who don’t have the intellect.

What do you say of children who haven’t reached the age of understanding?

Yes I had answers before I asked and I guess I want to provoke folks to think about what they believe and why. I've actually asked the same question on other threads on this forum and also on other boards and I have been 'interested' at the responses but mostly lack of response. It seems some (yourself not included) have wanted to avoid the issue and whether that is because people just don't know or whether they see it as contentious or whether the only answer they can give is, "they all go to hell" in spite of their undertsanding that God is righteous & just - I don't know.

So what am I saying?

For those who are not born again, they perish. The grave is their end. They are not resurrected. They are not judged. Not sent to heaven or hell. They just perish. Just like beasts of the field. Somehow Christendom has adopted the belief that to perish is to suffer in hell for ever. ie eternal life in hell. And so I ask - why?

Now don't get me wrong. I believe in hell, but besides the devil and his angels it is reserved for those who have received the gift of live (born of the Holy Spirit) and have turned back, as Paul puts it in his letter to the Galatians, 'to trying to reach their goal by human effort.' This is self righteousness.

BTW the document I sent you has a section on 'self-righteousness'

Regards

 

[Rick W]

I don't have much time today since I work the evening shift and i will be seeing Mom today in the hospital fot a blood clot found 3 weeks after her knee replacement. All is well with her, she's doing fine and will be home soon but it doesn't leave me much time for attention to a reply.
I'll catch up with this and won't ignore the ideas presented.

 

[Solo]

You asked questions then made a rebuttal to a reply.
I'm interested in your answers to the questions you posed. Obviously you already had your answers before you asked.

"So why would God make you go there?

What do you say of those who have never heard the gospel?

What do you say of the handicapped who don’t have the intellect.

What do you say of children who haven’t reached the age of understanding?

Yes I had answers before I asked and I guess I want to provoke folks to think about what they believe and why. I've actually asked the same question on other threads on this forum and also on other boards and I have been 'interested' at the responses but mostly lack of response. It seems some (yourself not included) have wanted to avoid the issue and whether that is because people just don't know or whether they see it as contentious or whether the only answer they can give is, "they all go to hell" in spite of their undertsanding that God is righteous & just - I don't know.

So what am I saying?

For those who are not born again, they perish. The grave is their end. They are not resurrected. They are not judged. Not sent to heaven or hell. They just perish. Just like beasts of the field. Somehow Christendom has adopted the belief that to perish is to suffer in hell for ever. ie eternal life in hell. And so I ask - why?

Now don't get me wrong. I believe in hell, but besides the devil and his angels it is reserved for those who have received the gift of live (born of the Holy Spirit) and have turned back, as Paul puts it in his letter to the Galatians, 'to trying to reach their goal by human effort.' This is self righteousness.

BTW the document I sent you has a section on 'self-righteousness'

Regards

Your position is in error as the Word of God shows, but it does sound good to the ears that prefer being tickled than hearing the truth. Before anyone gains eternal life or "perishes", they are judged. The resurrected evil will be separated from God for eternity, and will be eternally punished for their rejection of Him. They will perish from the presence of Almighty God. Those that are lacking the intellect to decide have had their sins paid for by the savior Jesus. Those that do good will not perish.

17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. 18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. 32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true. 33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth. 34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved. 35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light. 36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. 37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. 38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. 39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. 41 I receive not honour from men. 42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. 43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. 44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

 

[mutzrein]

Your position is in error as the Word of God shows, but it does sound good to the ears that prefer being tickled than hearing the truth. Before anyone gains eternal life or "perishes", they are judged. The resurrected evil will be separated from God for eternity, and will be eternally punished for their rejection of Him. They will perish from the presence of Almighty God. Those that are lacking the intellect to decide have had their sins paid for by the savior Jesus. Those that do good will not perish.

I am astounded at your reasoning Solo.
Has the simplicity of the gospel eluded you?
You know that the gift of God is by grace alone.
You know that it is not by what you do that you inherit eternal life.
You know that to enter the kingdom of God you must be born again.
And yet you say, “Those that are lacking the intellect to decide have had their sins paid for by the savior Jesus.â€Â
What? How? Since they are not born again, are you now wanting to believe there is another way?

Somewhere else you quoted the last passage you used along with the parable of the sheep and goats. I responded to you with the meaning of this parable and said I would not continue to debate with you unless you wanted me to. Now you have used the same passage of scripture alone. Does this mean that you want me to tell you what this means too – because if you really want to understand the truth then you have to be prepared to listen and accept that not everything you stand on is true.

I am happy (more than happy) to reason with you – but just copying passages of scripture and underlining the bits that say what you want to hear, without taking into account the full counsel of scripture, will not suffice.

You know satan quoted scripture to Jesus when he was tempted, saying, “It is written . . †And Jesus response was, “it is also written . . . â€Â
Now there is a great lesson to be learned from this. It does not mean just because the bible says something, that we can put God to the test and apply what we want to it – ‘because it is written.’
There is wisdom in knowing that we cannot take the ‘it is written’ statements without the ‘it is also written’ ones.

So, if as you say, my ‘position is in error as the Word of God shows . . .,’ why don’t we look briefly at what you have said?
“Before anyone gains eternal life or "perishes", they are judged.’
So, you are saying I am judged already? – because I can assure you I have received eternal life already. I am born again. No doubt about it. So how have I been judged?

Oh – but that is not what you meant is it? What you mean is that at the resurrection I am judged. So now I ask, “If I am born again, why would I be judged? How could I be judged?†I am born again. I have received eternal life. I am going to heaven, and since you say ‘once saved always saved’ what is the point of judging if in being ‘saved’ my salvation is secure.

So, is my position in error?
Do you say you have the mind of Christ?

Regards

 

[Solo]

Your position is in error as the Word of God shows, but it does sound good to the ears that prefer being tickled than hearing the truth. Before anyone gains eternal life or "perishes", they are judged. The resurrected evil will be separated from God for eternity, and will be eternally punished for their rejection of Him. They will perish from the presence of Almighty God. Those that are lacking the intellect to decide have had their sins paid for by the savior Jesus. Those that do good will not perish.

I am astounded at your reasoning Solo.
Has the simplicity of the gospel eluded you?
You know that the gift of God is by grace alone.
You know that it is not by what you do that you inherit eternal life.
You know that to enter the kingdom of God you must be born again.
And yet you say, “Those that are lacking the intellect to decide have had their sins paid for by the savior Jesus.â€Â
What? How? Since they are not born again, are you now wanting to believe there is another way?

Somewhere else you quoted the last passage you used along with the parable of the sheep and goats. I responded to you with the meaning of this parable and said I would not continue to debate with you unless you wanted me to. Now you have used the same passage of scripture alone. Does this mean that you want me to tell you what this means too – because if you really want to understand the truth then you have to be prepared to listen and accept that not everything you stand on is true.

I am happy (more than happy) to reason with you – but just copying passages of scripture and underlining the bits that say what you want to hear, without taking into account the full counsel of scripture, will not suffice.

You know satan quoted scripture to Jesus when he was tempted, saying, “It is written . . †And Jesus response was, “it is also written . . . â€Â
Now there is a great lesson to be learned from this. It does not mean just because the bible says something, that we can put God to the test and apply what we want to it – ‘because it is written.’
There is wisdom in knowing that we cannot take the ‘it is written’ statements without the ‘it is also written’ ones.

So, if as you say, my ‘position is in error as the Word of God shows . . .,’ why don’t we look briefly at what you have said?
“Before anyone gains eternal life or "perishes", they are judged.’
So, you are saying I am judged already? – because I can assure you I have received eternal life already. I am born again. No doubt about it. So how have I been judged?

Oh – but that is not what you meant is it? What you mean is that at the resurrection I am judged. So now I ask, “If I am born again, why would I be judged? How could I be judged?†I am born again. I have received eternal life. I am going to heaven, and since you say ‘once saved always saved’ what is the point of judging if in being ‘saved’ my salvation is secure.

So, is my position in error?
Do you say you have the mind of Christ?

Regards

You don't have to accept anything that is said in the Bible; that is your choice. When you make ridiculous claims and propagate them as Biblical, I will call you on them. All people are judged for their works. If your works are from the flesh they will be burnt up as wood, hay, and stubble; if your works come from the new creature born of God they will be as precious stones and gold and will remain.

Is your position an erroneous one? Those areas that you have not submitted to the Lordship of Jesus Christ are in error. Those areas that are lies and deceptions of the devil are in error.

Do I have the mind of Christ? Yes.

 

[mutzrein]

Do I have the mind of Christ? Yes.

That's a very bold statement - and you will be tested on it.

 

[Solo]

Do I have the mind of Christ? Yes.

That's a very bold statement - and you will be tested on it.

A bold statement and true.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth F6 all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:14-16

 

[Rick W]

Now don't get me wrong. I believe in hell, but besides the devil and his angels it is reserved for those who have received the gift of live (born of the Holy Spirit) and have turned back, as Paul puts it in his letter to the Galatians, 'to trying to reach their goal by human effort.' This is self righteousness.

Hell reserved for the Devil, his angels and backsliders?

If we, hearing the word but rejecting it, return to the oblivion as we were before we were born then one can logically conclude it's better not to believe, to be risk-free from going to Hell by setting our minds against believing right from the start. It's much safer that way.

Most have fear of the unknown. That fear could be eliminated simply by accepting oblivion instead of anything else no matter what it is. I've been asked and have asked "What is it like in heaven?" simply because it's an unknown. It would be much better not to even entertain the thought of believing since believing opens you to risk of failure and Hell.

 

[mutzrein]

Now don't get me wrong. I believe in hell, but besides the devil and his angels it is reserved for those who have received the gift of live (born of the Holy Spirit) and have turned back, as Paul puts it in his letter to the Galatians, 'to trying to reach their goal by human effort.' This is self righteousness.

Hell reserved for the Devil, his angels and backsliders?

If we, hearing the word but rejecting it, return to the oblivion as we were before we were born then one can logically conclude it's better not to believe, to be risk-free from going to Hell by setting our minds against believing right from the start. It's much safer that way.

Most have fear of the unknown. That fear could be eliminated simply by accepting oblivion instead of anything else no matter what it is. I've been asked and have asked "What is it like in heaven?" simply because it's an unknown. It would be much better not to even entertain the thought of believing since believing opens you to risk of failure and Hell.

PotLuck

Before you were born of the flesh, did you, looking forward, see the myriad of hard choices and unknown outcomes and so speak from your mothers womb or perhaps even your father's loins and say, "there are too many unknowns, too many risks, I don't want to be born," and so cause the abortion of your own birth?

You see birth, is not the choice of the child. Neither physical nor spiritual.

As Nicodemus said, "surely a man can’t enter his mother’s womb a second time to be born.
Once born you cannot change it. You can die – but you can’t be ‘unborn’.

 

[Rick W]

Exactly.
But now I have life. Can I consciously rebel against God? That is, decide to reject the Word of God? Of course I can, thereby choosing oblivion as opposed to risking Hell.

"Lake of fire" is eternal.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever


Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

So by verse 20:14 only the backslider suffers death?
The lake of fire is everlasting and of course so is whatever is in it.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So a backslider won't find their name in the book of life but one who rejects Christ, those not born-again in the first place, will find their name written therein?
How so?

Nice platitudes aren’t they – but that’s all I would say. Where is the foundation?
You know what has happened? We (Christendom) have developed such a distorted theology based on doctrines of men that when it comes to ‘tricky’ questions like this we try and find justification for a righteous God to not send such innocents to hell.

"find justification for a righteous God to not send such innocents to hell."

Isn't the annihilationists belief the essence of this?

 

[Rick W]

Here's the problem.
Do I speak the Word of God to those I love putting them in jeopardy of Hell when before I witnessed to them there was no such danger? If I truly love them should I put them at risk? For to backslide one must accept Christ then reject Him. Do I have any assurance at all that those I love once saved through the Word I preached will remain solidly in Christ?
It would then be better to remain silent and not put someone at the same risk I am under, that of backsliding.
Oblivion is safe. Surely it's better than Hell. And how can being eternally alive in Christ be better than nothing at all. And I mean nothing. How is any eternal life better than what I had before, oblivion, when I could not possible have known anything at all anyway since there was no "I" in the first place?

Recieving The Word leads to being born-again which may lead to backsliding which leads to Hell. How can I put those I love at such risk? How can I be so arrogant?

 

[mutzrein]

Ok there are some foundational aspects of this issue which we differ on and that leads to different conclusions.

Firstly, God chooses man – not the other way around. So no matter how strongly you witness nor how much you love your loved ones, if God has not chosen them to receive eternal life, they will not be born again. The preaching of the gospel to those who are perishing is foolishness. However, we do sow, but the fact that the seed does not always grow to fruition is also not our business – but God’s.
And then, given that we are born of God, rejecting the word of God does not translate to returning to the former state of perishing. You see, before being born of God, the spirit was not given, but once it is, the gift of God cannot be revoked. It is eternal life.

So, if (as you put it) someone does reject the word of God (and I interpret this to mean – becoming self righteous) even then eternal life is not taken away from them. And since they have received life they will be judged (as in the sheep and the goats). But only God knows the heart of man and will judge in righteousness.

 

[mutzrein]

You mentioned annihilationists so just a question on them if you can. Are you able to tell me what they say happens to the spirit when man dies?

 

[Rick W]

Ok there are some foundational aspects of this issue which we differ on and that leads to different conclusions.

Firstly, God chooses man – not the other way around. So no matter how strongly you witness nor how much you love your loved ones, if God has not chosen them to receive eternal life, they will not be born again. The preaching of the gospel to those who are perishing is foolishness. However, we do sow, but the fact that the seed does not always grow to fruition is also not our business – but God’s.
And then, given that we are born of God, rejecting the word of God does not translate to returning to the former state of perishing. You see, before being born of God, the spirit was not given, but once it is, the gift of God cannot be revoked. It is eternal life.

Yes, of course. Agreed. We do have a commission to spread the word, to sow and God gives the increase.

So, if (as you put it) someone does reject the word of God (and I interpret this to mean – becoming self righteous) even then eternal life is not taken away from them. And since they have received life they will be judged (as in the sheep and the goats). But only God knows the heart of man and will judge in righteousness.

"and I interpret this to mean – becoming self righteous
Choosing to remain unrepentant.

You mentioned annihilationists so just a question on them if you can. Are you able to tell me what they say happens to the spirit when man dies?

The gist of annihilation:
The wicked will pass into non-existence, oblivion, as they were before they were born, annihilated, never to return.

However, the claim put forth is that only Satan, his angels and the backsliders will go to Hell. The rest are "annihilated".

The first thing you would need to prove is that only Satan, his angels and backsliders are wicked and in jeopardy of being judged to eternal misery without God. Or that there are those that are not born with a sinful nature.
As a kid nobody had to teach me how to lie or to steal. Nobody had to teach me not to share or blame things on others. Those qualities I was born with right from the womb. And I'd be a liar if I told you I no longer have those traits for the flesh is weak. Again, even Paul struggled with this in Romans chapter 7.

Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.



Say I've been witnessing to a friend of mine. I've sown the seed. If they choose not to repent and continue their ways what happens to them? Is God to blame if they remain unrepentant? Is that why they can't be held accountable? Is this what you're saying?
Adam blamed Eve AND God for his transgression. If we blame God aren't we doing the same thing as Adam?

If people who do not accept Christ are in no jeopardy of punishment then where is the urgency to spread the Word of salvation in the first place?

 

[noblej6]

Hi Forum,

Do those not born-again go to Hell

This 'born again' phrase really bugs me. It is the most understood two words in Christianity I think.

First I'll say that Mother Teresa would never have been considered a 'born again' Christian, yet if she went to Hell it will be one crowded place.

To be born again in the biblical sense of 1 Peter 1 is simply that because of the cross, mankind, from then on, has a new birth into eternal life.

The 'born again' of John 3 is when mankind passes from the natural life and is 'born again' into the spiritual life. However, there is absolutely no biblical possibility that the two can overlap. Paul specifically says that the natural earthly comes first and AFTER that the spiritual. This being a spiritual body and immortal body after the 'born again' experience ids a horrible stretch of biblical meaning.

What born again type christians refer to as 'born again' is what the rest of us call the indwelling of the HOly Spirit.

Mother Teresa qualifies for the Heavenly afterlife, the 'born again' phrase in itself means nothing.

Someone 'born again' has acceptted the gospel, no more, no less, so did Mother Teresa.

noble6