Bible Study Do those not born-again go to Hell

[John the Baptist]

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[dandirom]

I have no idea why this thread is even in contention since Jesus says we have to be born again of the Spirit in order to go to heaven. Those who believe him are Christians. Those who do not believe him are not followers of Christ. So there should be no argument among Christians.

Amen. But I believe the question was, if those who have not been born-again go to hell.

Do they? Yes, they do. Anyone who has not been 'born-again' from his or her sinful nature is an unbeliever and the Bible is very clear where unbelievers go. Nobody can claim to be a Christian without being born-again. That is the pre-requisite that Christ himself put down.

As to the point raised about children, Christ himself says that 'Except ye be converted, and become as LITTLE CHILDREN, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven'.

 

[noblej6]

Hi Forum,

Just go ahead and try and convince someone that Mother Teresa is in HELL!

She or anyone of her faith would never consider that she wa 'born again.'

Who wants to stand up and say Mother Teresa was not a lady of God?

noblej6

 

[John the Baptist]

Hi Forum,

Just go ahead and try and convince someone that Mother Teresa is in HELL!

She or anyone of her faith would never consider that she wa 'born again.'

Who wants to stand up and say Mother Teresa was not a lady of God?

noblej6

**********
John here:

Hell has not taken place as of yet!

Yet, in the future? Who knows? Who can read the heart of mind of another?
And a lady of God? Israel has many excellent moral folks, but are they Christian ones?
Does one believe Acts 4:12 is a top priority or not? And hell?? Who does or does not go there, is not found by asking the question of what [would Christ do], but what [DID] Christ do! Whatever it was, cost Him to have His [OWN] kill Him, huh? Will they go to hell? What do you think? Luke 12:47-48

Yet, friend, I highlighted your words of.. 'her faith', what is that meaning? Her having faith, or the 'fold' of her faith? Her faith we do not know as I stated, yet if you are asking about the Ephesians 4:5 faith? that I will condemn by my belief that it is the Mother of Harlots which is even seen in caps. Revelation 17:1-5 Does one believe that this 'mother' (fold) has ever done any good deeds????
Be sure to read Christ's WORD in Matthew 4:8-10 and take a long pause with verse 9!

 

[mutzrein]

You need to read the gospels, friend, particularly Matthew 13: 40-43, Revelations chapter 21, Matthew 25:31-46.

"The Spirit gives life, the flesh counts for nothing."

"If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

"For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction and many will enter it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life and only a few find it."

There are only 2 roads; one leads to life, the other leads to destruction. That's because people who are not humble or honest enough to admit they sin, & think they know better than Christ does what the truth is will reap what they sow.

Heidi

I appreciate your response, the scriptures you have listed and your comments regarding humility or honesty as it pertains to sin.

Before I go any further I want to assure you that my desire only is to see Christ’s pre-eminence over all and in all that I say and do.

Now I want to suggest something to you Heidi which I know has ruffled feathers, but I certainly don’t do it for the sake of aggravating the hearers or readers. And it is this. Much of the doctrine of Christendom hinges on the premise that the righteous inherit an eternal reward and the unrighteous, eternal punishment. So, those who are born of the spirit, through faith in Christ inherit eternal life and those who are not are sent to hell. And the scriptures that are used to support this premise are often the ones that you have used. And I agree thus far.

My contention however is that the scriptures, rather than depict all of mankind, actually depict those within the kingdom / the Christians / the children of God.

And because you have outlined several scriptures in support of your understanding I think it is fair that I respond to each. Now while I am more than happy to do this I have a bit of a problem doing it all in one sitting since I have other responsibilities to attend to.

So, if I can briefly address the first of the scriptures you use which is the parable of the wheat and tares – Matthew 13:40-43. And then I would like to offer you a document to read which is a treatise on the gospel which a friend has put together with my help. And let me make this absolutely plain too, we are not part of a cult, we do not attend the same church or denomination and so we have no agenda in terms of promoting a denomination or sect. Rather it is Christ and Christ alone that we seek to glorify. And the reason for offering this document to you is to give you an understanding of the premise upon which my beliefs are based. If you (or anyone else for that matter) wish to read it, please PM me and I will send it. It is about 500k in PDF format.

OK – on to the wheat and the tares.

Now there are keys within scripture which I see as unlocking the understanding of those who have ears to hear and eyes to see.

In this particular passage which we know is a parable of the kingdom of heaven, it says, ‘and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity.’ So we may ask, what is ‘his kingdom’. Why then did Jesus say that his Kingdom is not of this world? So if it is not of the world, why do we conclude that this particular parable refers all within the world rather than those from within it who have turned to iniquity?

In another verse, it refers to the tares being the ‘children of the wicked one.’ So we ask ourselves who are these children? Who could the children of the wicked one be?
Again, it is interpreted by many to mean all the wicked in the world. But does it mean that? Again, consider the words of Jesus, when speaking to the self righteous Pharisees, “You belong to your father, the devil, . . .†You see the tares and the wheat grow together otherwise why would the owner tell his servants not to pull the tares up lest the wheat be damaged. You see there are those whose father is God, but so close are they that are the children of the devil that there can be no other conclusion as to who they are. And briefly another element of this is the fact that it wasn’t until they brought forth fruit (the heads formed) that it became obvious that they were in fact weeds. For all intents & purposes they looked the same. Interesting.

These are just a few elements taken directly from the parable. I could say more but suffice to say, I don’t want to analyse purely on an intellectual basis and provide ‘proof’ as some would seek it just for the sake of it.

But let’s take a ‘real life’ application.

It is interesting to note that as the disciples went on to preach the gospel and proclaim the way of the new covenant, thousands believed and received the gift of the Holy Spirit. Thus Christianity grew and became a great faith. Nevertheless by Satan’s deceit he planted weeds amongst God’s people and Christianity became a field of both wheat and thistles. The wheat, being the man of the spirit, is always acknowledging that the righteousness of God is only attributed to the man of faith; and the thistles, being political Christians, trying to live a self righteous life, based on human intelligence.

Which is exactly the situation that Paul was addressing with the Galatians? “Who has bewitched you? . . . Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? . . .â€Â

You see these had become self-righteous and as Paul goes on to say, “You . . . have been alienated from Christ. You have fallen away from grace.â€Â

Does this sound like all those in the world? It doesn’t to me - and that is why I contend that the parables are a reflection of the kingdom of God as it contrasts those who walk by faith and those who would seek a righteousness which is no righteousness at all.

 

[mutzrein]

Hi Forum,

Just go ahead and try and convince someone that Mother Teresa is in HELL!

She or anyone of her faith would never consider that she wa 'born again.'

Who wants to stand up and say Mother Teresa was not a lady of God?

noblej6

noblej6

None of us dare stand in judgement of another (as to whether they will go to heaven or hell) whether it is mother Theresa or any other. It is Christ who will judge having been given that authority by His Father.

Now we do know as scripture tells us, 'By their fruit you shall know them,' and I for one can only applaud the humility of a woman who is prepared to forsake all, for the sake of the needy. I don't believe she performed her good works in order to be applauded by man. She did it because she responded to God's call. The fact that she was a catholic had nothing to do with it.

 

[noblej6]

HI Forum,

John the baptist asked what I meant by her faith.......I meant Catholics.

If there is a Heaven there is a Hell, and if either of them are in operation they both are.

John 11:25 26 says there was a place for Martha because she would never die. That means heaven was in operation when John wrote about Lazurus.

John 5 tells us that NOW, verse 25, the dead would hear HIS voice and come out, some to 'life'(Heaven) some to death.(second death or Hell) That was back in the first century.

So again Mother Teresa would be judged after death and she would now be in Heaven and she was not ever 'born again.' She had the benefi of the Holy Spirit I would bet, but she would never say she was born again in her lifetime. She was 'born again' at her death as a spiritual bodied being, but not the 'born again' which evangelicals and ????????????talk about.

noblej6

 

[mutzrein]

HI Forum,

John the baptist asked what I meant by her faith.......I meant Catholics.

If there is a Heaven there is a Hell, and if either of them are in operation they both are.

John 11:25 26 says there was a place for Martha because she would never die. That means heaven was in operation when John wrote about Lazurus.

John 5 tells us that NOW, verse 25, the dead would hear HIS voice and come out, some to 'life'(Heaven) some to death.(second death or Hell) That was back in the first century.

So again Mother Teresa would be judged after death and she would now be in Heaven and she was not ever 'born again.' She had the benefi of the Holy Spirit I would bet, but she would never say she was born again in her lifetime. She was 'born again' at her death as a spiritual bodied being, but not the 'born again' which evangelicals and ????????????talk about.

noblej6

I just want to clarify what you are saying here. Are you saying that no-one is born again until physical death according to catholic doctrine or your own belief?

Thanks

 

[noblej6]

Hi mutzrein,

I just want to clarify what you are saying here. Are you saying that no-one is born again until physical death according to catholic doctrine or your own belief?

Two areas of the bible speak of 'born again,'

1 Peter 1 (NASB)

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Here we see one meaning of born again which applies to everybody. Available to anybody who chooses to believe, anybody who has some religious experience which causes them to believe as well I would guess.

John 3
3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again

People who consider themselves 'born again' can not see the kingdom of God after that 'born again' experience. Before they see the kingdom of God they have to die first...there is the being 'born again' as a spiritual being.

When you are born again you take on immortality. Any persom on earth that has the born again experience is not immortal. Before you become truly immortal you must physically die and then be 'born again' a spiriual righteous being and then you are immortal to the second death. You will never die in the sense that Marttha never died in John 11:25 and 6, but Martha physically died so the spiritual being that comes after the natural is considered life for the righteous, condemnation for the wicked.

I know and understand what the born again denominations mean when they say 'born again', but it has become totally out of hand in that now they are saying that without that particular experience the person is somewhat less of a righteous person in God's eyes. The 'born again' thing that evangelicals and ?????? talk about is the same thing as the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that the rest of us talk about. No difference at all.

The term 'born again' really bugs me because the man made meaning of it has been expanded on to say that people who do not support a 'born again' type denomination will go to Hell. That is total .................not right.

noblej6

 

[John the Baptist]

--what bugggs me?--

Born Again bugs a person?

Pondering the Christ who stated the verse of John 3:3? The God Christ is LOVE! The devil has defined it his way. God has said it in His WORD, so that is what Love is. All of the Word! Matt. 4:4-2 Tim. 3:16 This is what Being Born Again is, it is the 'LETTER of Christ in our being, RECREATED with perfect Agape Love!

The LOVE OF GOD is not only Emotion as the devil claims! It is not going by FEELING!
It is true, that God created these Godly traits in us, but all the creation of God have these traits, (both the saved & the lost) but do these ones love God, or are our 'FEELINGS' a TEST of what Gods LOVE is?? Christ felt MISERABLE on the cross, what kept Him there dieing? LOVE!

We hardly ever see or hear of True Love doing things that Christ did before the cross! But this is where we are again at! Read Hebrews 6:6 & then the Present day Truth in Revelation 17:5. These very ones talking of love today are killing Christ all over again, as the verse states.

You know.. be nice, don't rock the church boat, don't judge, the wheat & the tares (OPEN SINNERS) all grow together, we are all sinners, we must have unity, and on & on! And these ones say.. what [did] Christ [do & say]??? Go check out Matt. 10 & Matt. 23.

So: What is the Bottom Line? Go by PRINCIPLE in following God! Do not only ask what Christ would do, and the reason for this is??? Because you will ONLY look for the verses that [YOU WANT TO DO]. OK??

Let me say that again... Do not [only ask what Christ would do] but [ASK WHAT CHRIST *DID* (past/tense) DO]. These things will find MANY THINGS that you do not want to do and say, yet, to LOVE the full Love of Christ, doing anything different than this is [ONLY 1/2 OF THE LOVING GOSPEL]! Got that?

Being a REAL Christian means being a total follower of Christ, not just the 'easy' stuff that satisfies ones 'emotional feelings stuff'. This is seen mostly in todays setting in the 'weaker' sex, huh? And the men? They have gone almost wholly AWOL!! (from the top on down! see Ezek. 9)
Now if that 'bugs' any? I suggest that you need to do a recheck on the Lord's REQUIREMENT of being Born Again! :fadein:
---John

 

[noblej6]

Hi John the Baptist,

What makes you say I don't understand the 'born again' phrase. I pointed out the two places in the bible that refers to it, I talked about how certain denominations use the term and then I explained why it bugs me.

Again I'll explain that the term has been expanded by many to mean something it was never meant to mean. The being 'born again' experience described by some is not even a sure shot at righteous immortality. I use as examples certain TV personalities who once bragged about being 'born again' and later being caught with prostitiutes down in the south country or when they brag of the 'born again' and then spend time in jail for frauding the people.

It is those who hold on to the end....that will be saved. In other words, believe until you die, be repentant of your sin. It has to do with the indwelling of the HOly Spirit/'born again' in that when the Christian has the Holy Spirit, they believe. That meaning of 'born again' is fine with me, I don't use it, but it is fine with me.

Nothing about the cross 'bugs' me, nothing about the instructions to mankind from Jesus Christ 'bug' me, only the mis-use of the phrase 'born again' bugs me at least as far as this conversation is concerned.

noblej6

 

[mutzrein]

Hi mutzrein,

I just want to clarify what you are saying here. Are you saying that no-one is born again until physical death according to catholic doctrine or your own belief?

Two areas of the bible speak of 'born again,'

1 Peter 1 (NASB)

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Here we see one meaning of born again which applies to everybody. Available to anybody who chooses to believe, anybody who has some religious experience which causes them to believe as well I would guess.

John 3
3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again

People who consider themselves 'born again' can not see the kingdom of God after that 'born again' experience. Before they see the kingdom of God they have to die first...there is the being 'born again' as a spiritual being.

When you are born again you take on immortality. Any persom on earth that has the born again experience is not immortal. Before you become truly immortal you must physically die and then be 'born again' a spiriual righteous being and then you are immortal to the second death. You will never die in the sense that Marttha never died in John 11:25 and 6, but Martha physically died so the spiritual being that comes after the natural is considered life for the righteous, condemnation for the wicked.

I know and understand what the born again denominations mean when they say 'born again', but it has become totally out of hand in that now they are saying that without that particular experience the person is somewhat less of a righteous person in God's eyes. The 'born again' thing that evangelicals and ?????? talk about is the same thing as the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that the rest of us talk about. No difference at all.

The term 'born again' really bugs me because the man made meaning of it has been expanded on to say that people who do not support a 'born again' type denomination will go to Hell. That is total .................not right.

noblej6

Hi noblej6

Thanks for your response. I'd like to come back to the issue of being born again later - time doesn't permit me at the moment but could you please tell me, is this a personal belief or is it a doctrine of the catholic church - or any other for that matter.

Thanks

 

[John the Baptist]

Hi, John here:
there is no disagreement with what I didn't print perhaps, that about what certain folks & denomination's do with the the verse? My view is that they still have a John 3:3 Truth that is a first requirement! It is hard for Christ to reach these after they HAVE BEEN MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST! That is not fiction! Hebrews 6:1-5's Postives only.
There has got to be this starting point, a CHANGE [from carnal to spiritual].
The reason that it is hard for God to now save them, is because they say, what more do I need? I [KNOW] that I have been changed. Hosea 4:6 or your remarks below means nothing much to them now! They had been changed with very little bible knowledge or truth, these ones do not understand nor care to understand, as a rule, that to retain their name in the Lambs book of life.. their work has only begun! Nahum 1:9 requires all to be safe to save..TESTING! And Hebrews 6:6 along with many more verses (and your's below) show that many will openly change courses! :
Then comes your below remarks that I mostly agree with.

"It is those who hold on to the end....that will be saved. In other words, believe until you die, be repentant of your sin. It has to do with the indwelling of the HOly Spirit/'born again' in that when the Christian has the Holy Spirit, they believe. That meaning of 'born again' is fine with me, I don't use it, but it is fine with me.

Nothing about the cross 'bugs' me, nothing about the instructions to mankind from Jesus Christ 'bug' me, only the mis-use of the phrase 'born again' bugs me at least as far as this conversation is concerned. "

noblej6

 

[noblej6]

Hi mutzrein,

Thanks for your response. I'd like to come back to the issue of being born again later - time doesn't permit me at the moment but could you please tell me, is this a personal belief or is it a doctrine of the catholic church - or any other for that matter.

I just checked the Catholic encyclopedia and there is no reference to 'born again' there. I think 'born again' is a phrase mostly in the evangelic groups, but I'm not sure of that. I know my protestant church in Canada doesn't use the term.

I am very sure that Mother Teresa was never referred to as 'born again' by the pope. Well, I don't think so anyway.

My understanding as I wrote it earlier is strictly from my reading of the bible.

noblej6

 

[Rick W]

Hi noblej6,
Here's a few verses I hope may help. In these is a present tense, not something that happens in the future. Hope these help. And I'm very glad you're in the Word.



Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior;

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever.

2Co 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

 

[mutzrein]

The gist of annihilation:
The wicked will pass into non-existence, oblivion, as they were before they were born, annihilated, never to return.

However, the claim put forth is that only Satan, his angels and the backsliders will go to Hell. The rest are "annihilated".

The first thing you would need to prove is that only Satan, his angels and backsliders are wicked and in jeopardy of being judged to eternal misery without God. Or that there are those that are not born with a sinful nature.
As a kid nobody had to teach me how to lie or to steal. Nobody had to teach me not to share or blame things on others. Those qualities I was born with right from the womb. And I'd be a liar if I told you I no longer have those traits for the flesh is weak. Again, even Paul struggled with this in Romans chapter 7.

Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.



Say I've been witnessing to a friend of mine. I've sown the seed. If they choose not to repent and continue their ways what happens to them? Is God to blame if they remain unrepentant? Is that why they can't be held accountable? Is this what you're saying?
Adam blamed Eve AND God for his transgression. If we blame God aren't we doing the same thing as Adam?

If people who do not accept Christ are in no jeopardy of punishment then where is the urgency to spread the Word of salvation in the first place?

Hi PotLuck

I’m sorry for the delay in getting a response to you. I think I got overwhelmed with all the other happenings as well as personal commitments etc.

In any case, thanks you for your response about annihilation. Before I move on to addressing some of the questions you put to me, there was one question I asked of you about annihilationists beliefs.

Please correct me if I am wrong, Christendom believes that man is born with an ‘eternal’ spirit. ie it is the part of man that never dies so after death it the spirit of man that is judged & sent to heaven or hell.

This is commonly accepted in Christendom huh?

And perhaps a secondary question to this is, if this is the case, at what point in a person’s life – ie conception / development in the womb / birth is it believed that a person receives their spirit? Actually that may be a good thread topic come to think of it, if there is any divergence of opinion out there.

And lastly before I come back and look at the questions you gave to me. The question I asked in my last post to you was - on the basis that man has an ‘eternal’ spirit, do you know how anihilationsists reconcile what happens to it at annihilation.

Cheers

 

[Rick W]

Please correct me if I am wrong, Christendom believes that man is born with an ‘eternal’ spirit. ie it is the part of man that never dies so after death it the spirit of man that is judged & sent to heaven or hell.

This is commonly accepted in Christendom huh?

True and I could say I was dead in spirit, that is, not alive in spirit with Christ but dead for the separation from God. For with God is life. Why was Christ crucified outside the city walls? He was to be separated from the people for the sin He bore.


Spiritually dead:

1 Peter 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

How does one preach to dead people?

Dead in spirit doesn't mean non-existence but separation.

2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Why make the distinction of separation, "from the presence", if total destruction, annihilation, would accomplish that and even more, separation from everything. There would be no need to continue with "from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;" after "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction".


There must be a first death if there is to be a resurrection unto life and resurrection of damnation.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

All are guilty.

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


We know all will stand before God.
We know the lake of fire is eternal.
We know every man will be judged.
We know there is a second death.
We know who's name is not written in the book of life is cast into the lake of fire.


Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever
Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

And perhaps a secondary question to this is, if this is the case, at what point in a person’s life – ie conception / development in the womb / birth is it believed that a person receives their spirit? Actually that may be a good thread topic come to think of it, if there is any divergence of opinion out there.

Would indeed be a good topic.
Starters perhaps?

Maybe this is predestination and not exactly what we're looking for.

Isaiah 49:1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.

Galatians 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

Jeremiah 1:4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

As to when the spirit is given then we again address the hot issue of the day of when is an embryo becomes a living being. And if that one couldn't be addressed directly from the bible then your question may not be in scripture either. Dunno. Just kicking around some thoughts.

Can't find anything direct about pediophelia either. But we know it's wrong. We may find indirect references to an issue perhaps but those are usually under fire almost immediately after posting them. :D

And lastly before I come back and look at the questions you gave to me. The question I asked in my last post to you was - on the basis that man has an ‘eternal’ spirit, do you know how anihilationsists reconcile what happens to it at annihilation.

No idea.

 

[John the Baptist]

This verse was posted in your [post] Potluck. It seems that we need to understand how one see's dead standing, yet having been judged lost already?? You are thinking that the wicked are going to be in heaven for a time??

I believe that they are judged by books. When Christ comes He says that he will bring His reward with Him. Both are judged either saved or lost. (1 Peter 4:17) Then comes the judgement by the record books as for the duration, or the punishment stage of all of these lost ones. Luke 12:47-48. This executional stage of judgement goes on during the 1000 that all the wicked ARE DEAD. See 1 Corinthians 6:2-3 & Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 & Daniel 7:9-10 & Revelation 20:12-14.

I do not believe that the wicked will ever again be in heaven! (only by record books, for eternities eternal library study of what God had & has paid for the salvation of man, & that They are justified in their ending of sin & sinners. Obadiah 1:16)

Your posted verse says:
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And about all of these 'spirit' suggestions??? I cannot buy any of this without clear 'identity' being stated. It seems that what might be needed by me is a recollection in my mind (spirit? whatever) of before birth & after death, otherwise I am a pretty dumb spirit. :wink: Ecclesiastes 9:4-6
& Ecclesiastes 3:19-20.

This 'spirit' thing to me, suggests Revelation 16:13-14 & 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12's final flurry by satan, as our time is now in it's final steps for earths ending. He started out in the Garden of Eden with a lie that one does not die, and according to Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15 there is NOTHING NEW, huh?

---John

 

[SputnikBoy]

And lastly before I come back and look at the questions you gave to me. The question I asked in my last post to you was - on the basis that man has an ‘eternal’ spirit, do you know how anihilationsists reconcile what happens to it at annihilation.

No idea.

There is no scriptural basis for Christendom to believe that man has an 'eternal' spirit or soul. Immortality is given ONLY to the righteous at the time of Christ's coming and not before (1 Corinthians 15:53-54). The unrighteous are NEVER given immortality since they are doomed to die (be anihilated). They perish (John 3:16). Check out 'perish' as used in this (and other texts pertaining to the destruction of the wicked) and you'll find the Greek 'apollumi'. The definition of this word is 'to destroy fully'. There is no eternal life for the unrighteous, no matter how badly the traditionalists want this to be true. This is nothing more than a Catholic myth that is cherished by most protestants and defended almost to the death ...um, please excuse the pun.

 

[John the Baptist]

And lastly before I come back and look at the questions you gave to me. The question I asked in my last post to you was - on the basis that man has an ‘eternal’ spirit, do you know how anihilationsists reconcile what happens to it at annihilation.

No idea.

There is no scriptural basis for Christendom to believe that man has an 'eternal' spirit or soul. Immortality is given ONLY to the righteous at the time of Christ's coming and not before (1 Corinthians 15:53-54). The unrighteous are NEVER given immortality since they are doomed to die (be annihilated). They perish (John 3:16). Check out 'perish' as used in this (and other texts pertaining to the destruction of the wicked) and you'll find the Greek 'apollumi'. The definition of this word is 'to destroy fully'. There is no eternal life for the unrighteous, no matter how badly the traditionalists want this to be true. This is nothing more than a Catholic myth that is cherished by most protestants and defended almost to the death ...um, please excuse the pun.

****
John here:
If the sincere could just look at Gods Word as THE BOOK! Using it ALL of it for DOCTRINE & EATING IT [ALL] for a balanced diet, then they could see that all of God's creation (others worlds even) have CONDITIONAL IMMORTALITY before sin, & after they are again saved.

It did take the Tree of Life to be kept alive, and Adam was not supposed to have died. And if one reads the Rev. verses they could see that saved mankind again will possess CONDITIONAL immortal life.

God Word very clearly states that ONLY GOD HAS IMMORTALITY!

Yet, the 'spirit' stuff will again deceive the 'very elect' if it was possible, huh?