Do u Need jesus to get into Heaven?

[min_is_3]

min_is_3,

I appreciate you sharing your testimony, but the case of your father, who almost assuredly heard the gospel, is different than those who lived and died without ever hearing of the Gospel, Jesus, or even the Bible.

Those who hear the gospel and reject it are in a far different state than those who have never heard.

Remember, Paul said that God overlooks the times of ignorance. The path is and always will be through Jesus, even if those who responded to His invisible attributes via creation will only recognize that it was Him they were responding to in life on Judgement Day.

We are most assuredly more blessed to know the gospel and not be in ignorance, but I don't believe the Bible teaches that those who were born, live and die in ignorance are wholly without hope.

It reminds me of Mark 16:16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned."

We have full assurance that if we believe and are baptized we have eternal life. But, this text does not tell us that if we are not baptized, we will be condemned.

The Bible fully assures us that if we believe in the Gospel we will be saved. It also is clear that if we reject Christ we will be lost. But, the Bible does not emphatically state that all the millions and millions of people who were born, lived and died without ever hearing of Jesus, are hopelessly lost...just that they will be judged by Him. To say that they are hopelessly lost is to say more than what the Scriptures teach us.

Now, this is no way diminishes our need to evangelize and spread the gospel, for it is only through believing the Gospel can we ever have assurance.

Hi handy, great discussion.

I won't go too much about my father's spirituality. He grew up in south Korea, poor, out in the country, but according to my mom, he grew up in a buddhist household, but was not a practicing buddhist nor did he pursue religion in his life or talk about God and such things. But all evidence points to the fact that he had no knowledge of Jesus and what the Bible taught about him. He died young in Korea with no evidence, according to my mom, of repentance or faith. So, as far as we know, it doesn't look good. He fell from his building at work and died. So, could someone have shared the Gospel to him that day before he died? Maybe. But up to that point, there was no evidence of it.

If you don't mind providing me an explanation of the Acts 17:30 verse regarding God overlooking times of ignorance? Are you understanding that to mean God not holding them accountable for their sins because they only had limited revelation to work with? That's how I understood you but if you could expound on that in case I misunderstood.

Thank you

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[handy]

If you don't mind providing me an explanation of the Acts 17:30 verse regarding God overlooking times of ignorance? Are you understanding that to mean God not holding them accountable for their sins because they only had limited revelation to work with? That's how I understood you but if you could expound on that in case I misunderstood.

No, I don't believe that God will not hold them accountable for their sins... we are all accountable for our sins. However, if, in their limited revelation, they came to know God through His creation and the inner conscience that God gives to all men, and... even though they never knew Christ, they still humbly realized their sinfulness and inadequacy towards the Creator... perhaps, at Judgement, Christ will extend mercy to them...overlooking their ignorance of His work on the cross, but extending forgiveness.

If He could ask the Father "Forgive them for they know not what they do" of the Romans who nailed Him to the cross...these same Romans who had heard their own prefect, Pontius Pilate state that he found no sin in Him... How much more will Christ beg forgiveness for those who...while never having the opportunity in life to hear the gospel... yet agreed in their inner man with God regarding their own sin and inadequacy?

I'm not stating that the Bible says outright that the ignorant will be forgiven... I think that reads more into Acts 17:30 than we should... but I do think that Acts 17:30 holds out much hope for the world... this same world that God love so much that He sent His Son to die for.

We know that Jesus' judgements will look in the hearts of all men...and that His judgements will be filled with grace and mercy as well as justice.

 

[Mike S]

Hi mark,

Thanks for responding. I'm not sure how the comparison with a pharisee applies since I am not speaking of a works/righteousness gospel as they did. maybe you can further clarify that example for me.

But to say that God does not have limits is not right. He is limited by His nature. It is impossible for Him to lie, the bible says. I would say that is a limit. God also puts on a self-imposed limit. And in the case of salvation, that is what He has done. He has limited the path to Himself through His Son only. That's what Jesus also said. That's what the Apostles teach. Why would there be so much written about Christ's death and blood atonement if another way without Him was possible?

And yes, as Christians we are to have a firm conviction of our faith.

Hebrews 10:19-25 "Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near."

How can we have a full assurance of faith if we can't be certain that Jesus is the only way or not? If He isn't truly the only available option, and some form of limited knowledge of God is enough for some people, why have a full assurance on Jesus when there is a viable second option? I don't believe that the bible offers a second option.

I totally understand the feelings of the original poster and the sensitive nature of this topic. I lost my father when I was three years old and he was not a believer or even religious for that matter. He loved my mom and I but he was also a transgressor of God's law written in his heart.

But when I grew into adulthood, the Lord saved me and led me to preach the true Gospel of salvation to my mom as well. She's been a believer for many years now, not from my work alone but also through other faithful Christians but we also know that my father wasn't as "fortunate", to use a worldly term. For whatever the reason, God had mercy on us and not on my dad. He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

I know he's my father and I would like to think better thoughts about his eternal condition, but my sentiments have to come second to the truth of God's word. And God's word says that in Christ we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins (Colossians 1:13-14).

And I know that my dad will have to pay for his sins on his own for eternity on the day of judgment. And since it's too late for him, it should be a motivator for me to share with my family that are still alive and do not know the Lord.

As the Hebrews 10:19 says that as believers, we have the confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus. This doesn't leave any room for some other way.

Hi min,

My reference to the Pharisees was only to point out their conviction that they were absolutely certain of what God wanted, and absolutely certain they knew how to live a righteous life. They were the religious bureaucracy of the time, exhibiting the usual bureaucratic obsession with routine. They had a concern for the letter of the law that blinded them to the spirit of the law, something Jesus' ministry was completely counter to.

I don't want us to have that kind of bureaucratic obsession in our faith, an obsession that blinds us to God's true nature and ongoing revelation.

I empathize with your concern for your parents. We all have such concerns, I think.

Stay strong in your faith, my brother.

 

[min_is_3]

Hi min,

My reference to the Pharisees was only to point out their conviction that they were absolutely certain of what God wanted, and absolutely certain they knew how to live a righteous life. They were the religious bureaucracy of the time, exhibiting the usual bureaucratic obsession with routine. They had a concern for the letter of the law that blinded them to the spirit of the law, something Jesus' ministry was completely counter to.

I don't want us to have that kind of bureaucratic obsession in our faith, an obsession that blinds us to God's true nature and ongoing revelation.

I empathize with your concern for your parents. We all have such concerns, I think.

Stay strong in your faith, my brother.

thanks for clarifying your point, mark. But i think the difference is that the Pharisees had a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge (Romans 10:2). Even though they studied the scriptures, they did not know about God's righteousness (Romans 10:3) but sought their own form of righteousness. so, the fault wasn't that they had a strong conviction, it's that they had a strong conviction in false knowledge.

Now, you might say that what I am saying is wrong which is up for discussion, but me having a strong conviction is not the fault. The fault would be on the "knowledge", whether it is right or wrong. Since the bible teaches us to have a "full assurance of faith", it naturally implies that we can attain a strong conviction of bible truths illuminated by the Spirit for Christians. I don't think this is a sign of arrogance or pride since God Himself tells us to "make our calling and election sure" (2 Peter 1:10).

It wouldn't make sense for men like Paul, to endure physical and spiritual persecution if they didn't have a strong conviction themselves (2 Timothy 1:12). Paul, himself testifies that when he was a pharisee, he acted in "ignorance" in unbelief (1 Timothy 1:13).

Many people have strong convictions, which is not wrong, it's what they have a strong conviction in is what is wrong is what I see from scripture.

God bless, mark.

 

[Lloyd]

No, I don't believe that God will not hold them accountable for their sins... we are all accountable for our sins. However, if, in their limited revelation, they came to know God through His creation and the inner conscience that God gives to all men, and... even though they never knew Christ, they still humbly realized their sinfulness and inadequacy towards the Creator... perhaps, at Judgement, Christ will extend mercy to them...overlooking their ignorance of His work on the cross, but extending forgiveness.

If He could ask the Father "Forgive them for they know not what they do" of the Romans who nailed Him to the cross...these same Romans who had heard their own prefect, Pontius Pilate state that he found no sin in Him... How much more will Christ beg forgiveness for those who...while never having the opportunity in life to hear the gospel... yet agreed in their inner man with God regarding their own sin and inadequacy?

I'm not stating that the Bible says outright that the ignorant will be forgiven... I think that reads more into Acts 17:30 than we should... but I do think that Acts 17:30 holds out much hope for the world... this same world that God love so much that He sent His Son to die for.

We know that Jesus' judgements will look in the hearts of all men...and that His judgements will be filled with grace and mercy as well as justice.

Beautiful post...

 

[min_is_3]

No, I don't believe that God will not hold them accountable for their sins... we are all accountable for our sins. However, if, in their limited revelation, they came to know God through His creation and the inner conscience that God gives to all men, and... even though they never knew Christ, they still humbly realized their sinfulness and inadequacy towards the Creator... perhaps, at Judgement, Christ will extend mercy to them...overlooking their ignorance of His work on the cross, but extending forgiveness.

If He could ask the Father "Forgive them for they know not what they do" of the Romans who nailed Him to the cross...these same Romans who had heard their own prefect, Pontius Pilate state that he found no sin in Him... How much more will Christ beg forgiveness for those who...while never having the opportunity in life to hear the gospel... yet agreed in their inner man with God regarding their own sin and inadequacy?

I'm not stating that the Bible says outright that the ignorant will be forgiven... I think that reads more into Acts 17:30 than we should... but I do think that Acts 17:30 holds out much hope for the world... this same world that God love so much that He sent His Son to die for.

We know that Jesus' judgements will look in the hearts of all men...and that His judgements will be filled with grace and mercy as well as justice.

Hi Handy,

I believe Romans 1:18-25 teaches us that people know God because God made Himself evident within them and also through His creation. So, it's not an if they came to know God, but rather, all men know God exists but in their unrighteousness, they suppress that knowledge and seek something else.

Notice from those verses also that even with the knowledge of God through creation and the evidence within themselves, they did not honor God as God rather they exchanged that knowledge for idolatry. This is the problem of the ungodly which is when they are left with only general revelation (which I am understanding what you said as "limited revelation"), they exchange that knowledge for something of their own invention. And this form of "limited revelation" is never something that is good enough to warrant salvation in the end since verses 24 and 25 speak about dishonoring themselves when they do this and how it's a lie rather than it being the truth of God. Therefore, you are forced to conclude that on the day of judgment, saying to God "I tried my best with the limited knowledge that I had to work with" is not a sufficient explanation to receive forgiveness.

You also mentioned about God loving this world. I would agree with you that He did show His love when He sent His Son into it but John 3:16 goes on to say that "all the believing ones" (pas ho pisteuon) will not perish but have everlasting life. It is faith in Jesus what results in everlasting life which is consistent to Jesus being the only way to the Father and the many other similar verses pointing to the exclusive means of salvation through Jesus.

And if what you say is true, then to evangelize the ignorant is the worst thing you can do for them. Because now you have limited their option down to one, which is only Jesus. While before, they are free to believe in whatever conception of god that their limited knowledge brings them to. The Greeks would have been ok with believing in their "unknown god", along with the many Old Testament nations that believed in the Baals and the Ashteroths. But God condemned such practices rather than accepting them as an acceptable form of religion based on their limited knowledge.

Therefore, "limited revelation" doesn't lead anyone to saving faith in the One True God, but rather to idolatry from what Paul wrote in Romans 1.

 

[thethinkingrebel]

My mother sponsors a very nice family in India. They live high up in the foothills of the Himalayas and have been so secluded from the rest of the world that they have never heard of God, Jesus or the bible. The father recently passed away, which raised the question in our family; did he go to heaven or hell. So i am curious, does a very kind-hearted man whom has never hurt a fly and spent his life enriching the life of others spend an eternity of damnation because he has never heard the word?

Remember Christ's millenial kingdom, where christians are Jesus' priests. My theory is that during that kingdom, those who did not hear the gospel but...who perhaps followed the law written in his hearts, will be given the opportunity to hear it. Its only a possibility and a theory. But as many have said, its unwise to assume destruction AND ridiculously unwise to assume Eternal conscious torment for someone who never had a chance of coming to Jesus - Either due to age, location, or disability. God is not cruel to anyone except his enemies...a 3 year old child is not his enemy, nor is someone who lives in geographical obscurity yet has a respect for God and the law (even if he does not consciously percieve it). His enemies are those who HAVE heard the gospel, and laugh at it.

All adults who have not heard of Jesus are still under the law. But we should not presume to know what a conscious and living God like Yahweh is going to do.

 

[thethinkingrebel]

People who have never heard about Jesus and therefore did not put their faith in Him will have same result as those who have heard about Jesus and did not put their faith in Him; hell.

is God obligated to bring the Gospel to everyone? No, He is not because nowhere does the bible say that He must give the Gospel to everyone. But He is obligated to bring punishment for sins whether by the sinner themselves or by Christ because of justice. It wouldn't be Grace if God was forced or obligated to give it.

The bible is pretty clear that you can't get to the Father without going through Jesus. There is no other name under heaven by which people can be saved (acts 4:12), Jesus is the only mediator between God and man (1tim 2:5), eternal life is not only knowing the Father but also the Son (john 17:3)

Romans 1 and 2 teaches us that general revelation is enough information to condemn people, but not enough to save people since faith in Jesus is a necessary condition. So someone who is all by himself in a deserted island without a bible is because he has sinned against God because by nature, he is a law breaker of the law written in his heart.

God is not obligated to save anyone. He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. But that extension of mercy will not be without faith in Christ.

Knowing this is why evangelism and missionary work is so important. There are many people in the world that have yet to hear the Gospel presentation, hear about the awfulness of their sins and the just consequence that awaits them. And that their only way of escape is to abandon all hopes of a "I'm good enough" or "I believe in some higher power" form of salvation. If Jesus wasn't the only way, then there wouldn't be such an importance of preaching Christ and Him crucified but rather hoping that the "other way" is enough.

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Did Abraham have Jesus?

He had faith..old covenant or not, those without Jesus are under it! If they have faith and know God it WILL be counted to them as righteousness.

GOD is fair! He is just! Hes not a cruel dictator, noone is made to perish..only those who wilfully deny him will perish. How can you deny a God you never knew? Its extreme arrogance with our bibles and churches to assume that we know everything, and to blatantly condemn those far less fortunate than us to (of all things) eternal torment. I mean come on, even we can't get our theology straight after 2000 years.

 

[Ace1234]

I believe Jesus is God in flesh. If you know God, you know Jesus. If you know Jesus, you know God.

If you had known me, you would have known my Father also; henceforth you know him and have seen him. John 14:7 RSV

That's the issue that becomes confusing, is knowing God enough, is just accepting God accepting Christ, the bible says different, that the only way we can come to the father is through the son, it doesn't say we come to the son through the father.

The bible also says and history shows us most people and tribes have followed a belief in God or God's through creation. Like many, they formed a belief in God to explain the afterlife and things they didn't understand, but the bible seems clear God chose to show himself to the Jews first through prophets and directly, he didn't do this with others. The question is how are people just to accept the right God if all they're working on is creation, the many indian tribes in america worshipped several different Gods based on creation, some referred to as the "great spirit" but he took many forms. We also know as christianity came in contact with these many tribes and understood their beliefs they were labeled pagans, heretics, heathens, etc... Some go as far to say Christ in his own way speaks to those that have never heard, well, history proves different.

The more complexing issue is we know through the history of man, more have died never hearing the gospel than hearing, heck, it took over 1500 years after Christ said he was the only way for the gospel to just start leaving Europe.

 

[Mike]

Therefore, "limited revelation" doesn't lead anyone to saving faith in the One True God, but rather to idolatry from what Paul wrote in Romans 1.

I really think it would be best for you to lighten up on your determination that you fully know the fate of these people who have never heard of Jesus. I used Romans 1 to arrive at an opposite understanding than you. Evil is that which serves to replace or usurp God's Authority, some might say. There is defiance of the revelation Given simply by using the senses God Gave us, and there are the ones to humble themselves to their "unknown" Creator.

Look at 2 Peter 2 where in verse 21 it says, "It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them."

As believers I think it's fair to say that there can be nothing worse than being separated from the Grace of God. Why would there be varying degrees of separation, all ending in the lake of fire?

What I believe most of us to take my stance are saying is that we're not ruling out the possibility that some who never hear of Jesus might receive His Grace on Judgment Day in keeping with their response to the knowledge Given them. I also believe that they would agree that the most certain way to be secure in your salvation is to hear about Jesus, repent, and be baptized. This is something very clear in scripture. So, to take someone who doesn't know about Jesus and might have a chance, and to offer them a most certain Way, should be a natural thing to want to do.

 

[min_is_3]

Did Abraham have Jesus?

He had faith..old covenant or not, those without Jesus are under it! If they have faith and know God it WILL be counted to them as righteousness.

GOD is fair! He is just! Hes not a cruel dictator, noone is made to perish..only those who wilfully deny him will perish. How can you deny a God you never knew? Its extreme arrogance with our bibles and churches to assume that we know everything, and to blatantly condemn those far less fortunate than us to (of all things) eternal torment. I mean come on, even we can't get our theology straight after 2000 years.

Yes Abraham had faith in Jesus. John 8:56 Jesus Himself said that Abraham saw the day of Jesus and was glad.

Romans 1 speaks about how people know God because God made it evident to them through creation and within themselves. And yet it continues to say that people did not honor God as God and resorted to idolatry. that is how they denied Him.

Just a question though, how do you know that God is fair and just? Where did you get that from?

The question is not meant to be sarcastic but rather a question regarding ultimate authority since you have said that the Bible is arrogant which I understood you to not accept the Bible.

I also think the charge of condemning people is misunderstood. I'm not condemning anyone. The Bible says that even our own conscience condemns us, that we are already condemned by God in our unbelief.

My job is not to condemn, but to point people to the only Savior from the coming wrath, who is Jesus. The bad news is really bad, which is why the good news is so good.

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[Mike S]

I really think it would be best for you to lighten up on your determination that you fully know the fate of these people who have never heard of Jesus. I used Romans 1 to arrive at an opposite understanding than you. Evil is that which serves to replace or usurp God's Authority, some might say. There is defiance of the revelation Given simply by using the senses God Gave us, and there are the ones to humble themselves to their "unknown" Creator.

I agree...and this comment is not aimed specifically at you, I'm just using this response for an opportunity to state my opinion on the use of scripture.

This is one of the problems with mining the scriptures and cherry picking the ones we think prove our interpretation. It's important to remember that Jesus left us NOTHING in writing, the only time we find Him writing is when He's doddling in the dirt. Everything we know, we know from the writings of others dating from at least 40 years after His death and resurrection.

I'm not questioning the value of scripture as the inspired word of God, I'm questioning our ability to know what is being said precisely enough to condemn others for finding different interpretations. We have, after all, thousands of denominations and variations of Christianity, with very different doctrines, as evidence.

Without being arrogant enough to presume to know the "limits" of God's grace, I try to understand the grand themes of the Bible that direct me to follow His will as best I can. I really am not impressed by arguments based on dueling interpretations of scripture used to force specific theological positions, but if pressed to go to the scriptures for proof texts, I like the following, which lead us to lives of humility, service, and sacrifce:

"He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?" - Micah 6:8

"...Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." - Matthew 22:37-40

"...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." - Philippians 2:12

 

[thethinkingrebel]

Yes Abraham had faith in Jesus. John 8:56 Jesus Himself said that Abraham saw the day of Jesus and was glad.

Well in that case, someone who existed in the pre-messianic age, could know Jesus without a bible, without knowing Jesus' name. Could indeed STILL be saved. Unless you believe Abraham knew the name of Jesus? I dont, and I think it would take quite a bit of verse twisting to try to make that point

Romans 1 speaks about how people know God because God made it evident to them through creation and within themselves. And yet it continues to say that people did not honor God as God and resorted to idolatry. that is how they denied Him.

I'm not talking about idolaters, Im talking about people who honor God and follow the law without knowing him, as well as little children who Jesus said his kingdom (i.e. Millenial) is made up of.

Just a question though, how do you know that God is fair and just? Where did you get that from?

*[[Pro 29:14]] HNV* The king who fairly judges the poor, his throne shall be established forever.

*[[Eze 18:29-30]] HNV* Yet the house of Israel says, "The way of the Lord is not fair." House of Israel, aren't my ways fair? Aren't your ways unfair? Therefore I will judge you, house of Israel, everyone according to his ways, says the Lord GOD. Return, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

The question is not meant to be sarcastic but rather a question regarding ultimate authority since you have said that the Bible is arrogant which I understood you to not accept the Bible.

No, what I was referring to is exactly what you have done above. Twisting peoples words to make yourself appear superior. I talked of bad theology, not of the bible. You should look at my (entire) posts, and come back and tell me if I believe the bible is arrogant. As opposed to human beings.

I also think the charge of condemning people is misunderstood. I'm not condemning anyone. The Bible says that even our own conscience condemns us, that we are already condemned by God in our unbelief.

Indeed, and I dont disagree with you here. But again, I am talking about people who do follow the Lord, as Abraham did..who have never read a bible, never been to church, worship no other gods and are incapable of moving countries due to poverty and hunger. As well as aborted babies, little children dead from disease, and who died in wars.

My job is not to condemn, but to point people to the only Savior from the coming wrath, who is Jesus. The bad news is really bad, which is why the good news is so good.

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I know I only gave a couple of verses talking about how God is just, I would point you to Revelation where it says "They are judged ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS/DEEDS" now if we were fire and brimstone about it would say that works cannot bring us salvation, and thus they will all die/burn for eternity.
I dont hold to that, I would argue that whilst we cannot save ourselves through works, God is a conscious living being who is able to make his own decisions. If these people are ultimately going to Gehenna, then what reason would there be to judge them? I think it would be premature to so black and whitely assume God's will. There is however only one way of assured Salvation, and that is Yeshua.

I also do not believe that multitudes will be saved by this manner..I think a very very small number of law-lovers will be saved. Simply because they followed the law written on their hearts..that is the "works"..