Bible Study Do we go to heaven as soon as we die?

[Lyric's Dad]

What you think you are teaching is not anything new.

What I think I'm teaching?

Your "quick to be offended" petticoat is showing Lyric's.

[quote="Lyric's Dad":e8426]I completely understand the three parts of a person.

Great.

"Soul sleep" is merely the term that is used by most to describe the false belief system you are speaking of here.

That I am speaking of? Since when did I "speak of" something called soul-sleep?

All I said was that you did not really answer anything in your response.

And still have not.

As for the Spirit of a Christian, it goes directly to God.

"It goes directly to God", wonderful, but scripture tells us that God is in our spirit.

So are you saying that our spirit goes directly to our spirit?


In love,
cj[/quote:e8426]Actually, I am anything but offended but do not appreciate the condescending comment. I am pretty sure you know exactly what I am saying and don't need to comment on your last line.

God bless.

 

[noblej6]

Hi Nuta,

In this thread we see some conflicting interpretations of Christianity showing.

Some believe that after we die we lie in the grave until such time as our soul/spirit/inner self re-unites with the body and ''resurrects' to life again right here on earth. There are many variations to that theory.

There are those who consider that the 'life' talked about after death is a spiritual, heavenly situation only. This heavenly life takes place in the spirtual , invisible realm and mortal man can never see the goings in this heavenly situation until after death. That is where the immortal soul comes in. The physical body goes thru physical death, but the soul or spirit lives on eternally in a heavenly state. A poor description of the heavenly eternal life would be that it is like an enhanced dream. Again there are variations to this interpretation too.

I see the bible as describing a resurrection to spiritual existance after physical death. This has been the case since the first century when Christ regained eternal life for us. Prior to the first century those who died slept in the dust.

Biblical verses for this are as follows.

Sleeping in the dust........

Daniel 12
2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

The sleeping ends at the last trumpet..

1 Cor 15:
51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep,.............

After the parousia believers(and wicked) do not have to sleep in the dust anymore.

A heavenly place is the eternal dwelling for believers

2 Cor 5
1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.

The simple meaning above is that we live in this physical body until death and then we live in the spiritual body in Heaven for eternity. There is no time left after eternity.

These verses explain how fast this happens.........

John 11
25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Here Jesus tells Martha that she lives even tho she dies meaning her immortal soul or whatever you want to call the inner self, lives on after physical death. That process is quick enough that Jesus can tell her that she will never die at all. Therefore He says that she passes from physical life to spiritual life instantly at physical death.
I notice one poster who feels that the dead person would not be awre of the passage of time and would 'think' they were seeing God instantly, but the scripture says specifically that "you will never die" so that is what scripture would mean. However, Martha did physically die so now we know Jesus here is talking about the spiritual or Heavenly life.

My usual cyber name was in use on this board, but on other websites I'm Justme. Here I'll sign as

John

 

[noblej6]

Hi Nuta,

In this thread we see some conflicting interpretations of Christianity showing.

Some believe that after we die we lie in the grave until such time as our soul/spirit/inner self re-unites with the body and ''resurrects' to life again right here on earth. There are many variations to that theory.

There are those who consider that the 'life' talked about after death is a spiritual, heavenly situation only. This heavenly life takes place in the spirtual , invisible realm and mortal man can never see the goings in this heavenly situation until after death. That is where the immortal soul comes in. The physical body goes thru physical death, but the soul or spirit lives on eternally in a heavenly state. A poor description of the heavenly eternal life would be that it is like an enhanced dream. Again there are variations to this interpretation too.

I see the bible as describing a resurrection to spiritual existance after physical death. This has been the case since the first century when Christ regained eternal life for us. Prior to the first century those who died slept in the dust.

Biblical verses for this are as follows.

Sleeping in the dust........

Daniel 12
2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

The sleeping ends at the last trumpet..

1 Cor 15:
51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep,.............

After the parousia believers(and wicked) do not have to sleep in the dust anymore.

A heavenly place is the eternal dwelling for believers

2 Cor 5
1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.

The simple meaning above is that we live in this physical body until death and then we live in the spiritual body in Heaven for eternity. There is no time left after eternity.

These verses explain how fast this happens.........

John 11
25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Here Jesus tells Martha that she lives even tho she dies meaning her immortal soul or whatever you want to call the inner self, lives on after physical death. That process is quick enough that Jesus can tell her that she will never die at all. Therefore He says that she passes from physical life to spiritual life instantly at physical death.
I notice one poster who feels that the dead person would not be awre of the passage of time and would 'think' they were seeing God instantly, but the scripture says specifically that "you will never die" so that is what scripture would mean. However, Martha did physically die so now we know Jesus here is talking about the spiritual or Heavenly life.

My usual cyber name was in use on this board, but on other websites I'm Justme. Here I'll sign as

John

 

[noblej6]

Hi Nuta,
Sorry-posted this over and over somehow!!!!!!!!!

John

 

[guibox]

The physical body goes thru physical death, but the soul or spirit lives on eternally in a heavenly state....I see the bible as describing a resurrection to spiritual existance after physical death. This has been the case since the first century when Christ regained eternal life for us. Prior to the first century those who died slept in the dust.

This assumption because nowhere does it say that our 'spirit lives on in a heavenly state', a 'spiritual existence'. The Bible says that the 'spirit goes back to God who gave it'. The OT which didn't even believe in a 'spiritual' existence after death except the resurrection, also reiterates this in Job.

This spirit is merely the life force given by God that made us a living being or a living 'soul' (See Genesis 2:1)

The NT references to resurrection echo the exact thing as Daniel 12:1 and other OT references to resurrection. The concept of resurrection to life didn't change from OT to NT. The dead in the NT are with the dead in the OT until the resurrection to life spoken of in both occurs.

A heavenly place is the eternal dwelling for believers
2 Cor 5
1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.

The simple meaning above is that we live in this physical body until death and then we live in the spiritual body in Heaven for eternity. There is no time left after eternity.

These verses explain how fast this happens.........

John 11
25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Here Jesus tells Martha that she lives even tho she dies meaning her immortal soul or whatever you want to call the inner self, lives on after physical death. That process is quick enough that Jesus can tell her that she will never die at all. Therefore He says that she passes from physical life to spiritual life instantly at physical death.

Your problem is interpreting 2 Corinthinans 5 as meaning a disembodied existence in heaven directly at death. The spiritual body we have is the changed body given to us at the resurrection spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15. "The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption."

Paul is speaking of the resurrection body in 2 Cor 5, not immediate heavenly existence.

Notice Jesus reiterated and explained His words to Martha in John 6:40,47

"He who believes in me shall never die and I will raise him up at the last day"

Christ makes no mention whatsoever of any 'soul' that survives death. Rather it is a gratuitous assumption on your part. Rather, Christ links eternal life to the resurrection..just like Daniel...just like Job...just like Paul.

"If the dead raise not, then Christ is raised not and if Christ is raised not, then ye are still yet in your sins, then THOSE THAT HAVE FALLEN ASLEEP IN CHRIST HAVE PERISHED'

"If a man dies, shall he live again...but every man in his own order, Christ the first fruits, then they that are Christ's at His coming."

- 1 Cor 15

"Marvel not at this for the hour is coming in the which all that are in his graves shall hear His voice and shall come forth, those that have done good to eternal life, those that have done evil unto eternal damnation"
- John 5:28,29

"Henceforth there is a crown of righteousness laid up for me that the Lord shall give me on THAT DAY, and not to me only BUT TO ALL THEM THAT WAIT FOR HIS APPEARING"
- 2 Timothy 4:6-8

To both Paul and Christ, eternal life and eterna rewards are given at the resurrection, not at death.

I notice one poster who feels that the dead person would not be awre of the passage of time and would 'think' they were seeing God instantly, but the scripture says specifically that "you will never die" so that is what scripture would mean. However, Martha did physically die so now we know Jesus here is talking about the spiritual or Heavenly life

Again, our physical death means nothing in the grand scheme of things. Therefore our 'never dying' means that we will not be dead eternally. When this is received is not clarified here but is elsewhere.

The resurrection is the fulfillment of death being conquered and life eternal being secured. People in their graves are still experiencing the first death. Therefore they do not have to be immediately alive after their physical death to fulfill Christ's words.

If what you are saying is true, and if it is instantaneous, then it is the first death that we are saved from when our souls go straight to heaven and not the second death!

It is assumption to interpret that Christ saying 'you will never die' means that our soul lives on immediately after death.

The Bible doesn't teach that.

Instead it shows that we are given immortality (i.e. we shall never die) ONLY AT THE RESURRECTION (1 Corinthians 15:51-54). This is the fulfillment of the second death being abolished.

"Blessed are they who have part in the first resurrection as the second death has no power over them"

Revelation 20


Again, here are the links to biblical explanations of the stuff we are talking about.

Noble, I strongly encourage you to look at the 'Resurrection, not Immortality' post.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-16
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=13069

Resurrection not Immortality!
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=12275

The Soul in the Bible
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=12210

The Spirit in the Bible
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=12211

 

[noblej6]

Hi guibox,

I commented that I saw the bible as saying there is a spiritual resurrection after physical death. You responded thusly:

This assumption because nowhere does it say that our 'spirit lives on in a heavenly state', a 'spiritual existence'. The Bible says that the 'spirit goes back to God who gave it'. The OT which didn't even believe in a 'spiritual' existence after death except the resurrection, also reiterates this in Job.

It is a development of biblical understanding after comparing various biblical verses. You have agreed that the spirit returns to the God who gave it as is written in Ecclesiastes. Where is God? What does God do with that spirit? The dust which is the physical body returns to the ground, that indicates the separation.

As I pointed out the eternal aspect of the afterlife is the heavenly realm as it says in 2 Cor 5:1.
You go on to discuss 2 Cor 5:1 later in your post and I will bring that up here.

Your problem is interpreting 2 Corinthinans 5 as meaning a disembodied existence in heaven directly at death. The spiritual body we have is the changed body given to us at the resurrection spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15. "The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption."

No, it is not a problem at all, it is a direct correlation to biblical fact.
1 Cor 15 describes two bodies, one is the natural, physical, earthly and visible body and the other is the spiritual, heavenly immortal and invisible body. Those are the only two choices, that is all that is available to mankind.
So it is exactly as you said, the spiritual body we have is given to us at the resurrection as per 1 Cor 15 but the resurrection is to a spiritual heavenly realm in that spiritual, heavenly, immortal and invisble to mortals- body and the resurrectiopn to the spiritual realm occurs at your personal death.
As far as you are concerned the end' is your personal death, heaven and earth passes away or if you prefer you pass away from it.
And yes the bible does say that we are resurrected a spiritual body right here:

1 Cor 15
44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

The above isn't referring to any 'born again' earthly, experience it is the process of being raised or resurrected. We know this because in this group of verses we learn that at the time this being raised a spiritual body happens we also become immortal. No one who claims a earthly 'born again' experience is immortal.

2 Cor 5:1 has nothing to do with any disembodied anything, it is a spiritual body instead of a physical one exactly as 1 Cor 15 describes it. The bible doesn't outline the mechanics of how the natural-spiritual bodies come to be, but it clearly says they do somehow.

\This spirit is merely the life force given by God that made us a living being or a living 'soul' (See Genesis 2:1)

The NT references to resurrection echo the exact thing as Daniel 12:1 and other OT references to resurrection. The concept of resurrection to life didn't change from OT to NT. The dead in the NT are with the dead in the OT until the resurrection to life spoken of in both occurs.

The spirit is what returns to the God that gave it at the same time as the dust(physical body) returns to the ground.

The Catholic Encyclopedia has a real nice article on the immortal soul under'Immortality' They explain it a lot better than I can.

Paul is speaking of the resurrection body in 2 Cor 5, not immediate heavenly existence.

Yes, that is correct. To determine the timing of that resurrection we must consult other verses. What 2 Cor 5:1 does do is verify that the eternal house, or the place where we spend eternity is definately in Heaven.
2 Cor 5
1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands

Notice Jesus reiterated and explained His words to Martha in John 6:40,47

"He who believes in me shall never die and I will raise him up at the last day"

At the LAST DAY...the last day of each persons earthly life. That is the exact same day as the wicked are raised too.

Christ makes no mention whatsoever of any 'soul' that survives death. Rather it is a gratuitous assumption on your part. Rather, Christ links eternal life to the resurrection..just like Daniel...just like Job...just like Paul.

Eternal life IS linked to the resurrection, of course. But yes, Christ does mention the soul that will survive death.

Matthew 10
28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell
John 5
"Marvel not at this for the hour is coming in the which all that are in his graves shall hear His voice and shall come forth, those that have done good to eternal life, those that have done evil unto eternal damnation"

Precisely, now look when these will hear the voice, when the time is...the answer is in verse 25.

To both Paul and Christ, eternal life and eterna rewards are given at the resurrection, not at death.

At the resurrection which is at the time of your personal death.
Here it is again from John 11
25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Martha did physically die yet Jesus Himself told her she would never die at all. Jesus told her even tho she dies , she lives. There is only the two choices as we learn in 1 Cor 15, natural and spiritual. Where is Martha 'living?" 2 Cor 5:1 says Martha has a house in Heaven after her earthly tent is destroyed. Where is Martha? 2 Cor 5 tells us that house in Heaven is forever or eternal. Where is Martha?

This spirit is merely the life force given by God that made us a living being or a living 'soul' (See Genesis 2:1)

The NT references to resurrection echo the exact thing as Daniel 12:1 and other OT references to resurrection. The concept of resurrection to life didn't change from OT to NT. The dead in the NT are with the dead in the OT until the resurrection to life spoken of in both occurs.

Your problem is interpreting 2 Corinthinans 5 as meaning a disembodied existence in heaven directly at death. The spiritual body we have is the changed body given to us at the resurrection spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15. "The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption."

Again, our physical death means nothing in the grand scheme of things. Therefore our 'never dying' means that we will not be dead eternally. When this is received is not clarified here but is elsewhere.

The resurrection is the fulfillment of death being conquered and life eternal being secured. People in their graves are still experiencing the first death. Therefore they do not have to be immediately alive after their physical death to fulfill Christ's words.

Physical death means a quite a bit to me, like I hope I got a week or two left yet. The main thing here is this part of your comment....

Therefore our 'never dying' means that we will not be dead eternally.

You have missed the entire point of the NT. The bible says we will never die at all. John 11:25,26. We live, Martha lived, the earthly physical, natural life and then her earthly tent was destroyed and she started living' the eternal spiritual life in Heaven. To say our never dying would be incorrect as you are using it. We will be physically dead eternally but will live in the spiritual realm eternally.

If what you are saying is true, and if it is instantaneous, then it is the first death that we are saved from when our souls go straight to heaven and not the second death!

Believers are saved from the second death, no one is saved from physical death, ever.

It is assumption to interpret that Christ saying 'you will never die' means that our soul lives on immediately after death.

The Bible doesn't teach that.

Instead it shows that we are given immortality (i.e. we shall never die) ONLY AT THE RESURRECTION (1 Corinthians 15:51-54). This is the fulfillment of the second death being abolished.

The second death is the road to Hell. The wicked suffer the second death. Believers do not. Believers are given eternal life.
Yes, we are given immortality at the resurrection, but as John 11 shows that resurrection takes place at your personal death. It is a spiritual resurrection to the Heavenly realm where believers spend eternity.

1 Cor 15 shows us that at the parousia it is not necessary for believers to 'sleep' anymore. At the parousia it becomes possible to pass from the natural earthly life to the spiritual heavenly life instantly on a favorable judgment.

Rev 20
"Blessed are they who have part in the first resurrection as the second death has no power over them"
Yes, this is the resurrection of the righteous dead or the participants of the 1000 year reign with Christ from Rev 20:4 and 6.
However, this is a resurrection of the dead or those who slept prior to the parousia. The same as those describred in Daniel 12:1-3.

Noble, I strongly encourage you to look at the 'Resurrection, not Immortality' post.

I will gladly do that,(I have read the first post of the suggested thread already) but would you look at the Catholic Encyclopedia's article of the immortal soul ..

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07687a.htm

John

 

[guibox]

noble, your fundamental problem is interpreting 1 Corinthians 15 as a personal resurrection when we die. This chapter is not talking about that but the resurrection at the coming of Christ. All of this chapter, all of Paul's talking about receiving the spiritual body (both here and tied to 2 Corinthians 5) culminate int he second coming when ALL the righteous receive their reward (their eternal, spiritual bodies, their eternal life)

The LAST day is the day of the second coming (Job 14:10-14 brings this out quite clearly as does Daniel 12:1 and 2 Timothy 4:6-8) not the day we die.

You obviously don't know the usage the bible makes with this phrase.

Until you can see this for what it is, we will be going around in circles and you will be interpreting all of the other texts (both by Christ and Paul) by this false mindset.

As for you link, it bases it's arguments on philosophy, pagan beliefs and even occultism to show that the 'soul' is immortal.

Look at the link I provided on the 'soul' and see what the Bible says about the soul.

The only truth that that link provided said that the Hebrews didn't have a concept of such an afterlife. That is correct and the bible proves that. Now what should we base our belief system on? The Hebrews belief as recorded in the Holy Scriptures of the OT and reiterated, rephrased, and repeated word for word in the NT or pagan Greek philosophers?

You decide.

As for me, I will believe both Christ and Paul when they say that 'hope', 'eternal life', 'immortality' 'incorruptibility' 'spiritual body' and 'rewards' are received at the second coming of Christ when the righteous dead (who are sleeping in their graves and can hear His voice) AWAKE to eternal life.

The Bible is pretty clear if you really read it for what it says instead of imposing preconceived Greek dualism into texts that do not support such nonsense.

 

[Abiyah]

HUH ?

Look at this passge

(Luke 23:42-43 NIV) [42] Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
[43] Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Doesn't this mean that the person will be with Jesus in heaven of paradise?
I do believe when we die, we do go to heaven and not any where else.

The error with this is that it contradicts a few things and brings out some problems:

1) Christ did not go to heaven at death but rested in the grave as He promised. He told Mary not to touch Him for "I have not yet ascended to my Father"
2) The criminals words are interesting "Remember me when thou come into thy kingdom", "Not save me when I die so I may be in paradise with you". We see that the second coming is when Christ truly 'comes' into His kingdom.
3) This is contradicted by the Scriptures that say man is asleep until the resurrection.
4) There is no scriptural proof that Christ went anywhere but the grave before His resurrection

Okay.... ? Unforetunately you are in error; First and foremost the Bible DOES NOT CONTRADICT ITSELF. If you find that the Bible contradicts itself THEN you are in error. And if you are in error, that means you don't understand what the Scripture is trying to bring forth to your mind. And if you don't understand then how can you explain that in which you lack understanding ? Secondly, lets look at.....

Guibox No. 1 & 4 For it is written

I Peter 3:18-19
" For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, BUT QUICKENED [ meaning made alive eternally] by the Spirit; BY WHICH HE ALSO WENT AND PREACHED UNTO THE SPIRITS IN PRISION. "

So then here is your Scriptural EVIDENCE that while Jesus Christ was in the tomb, He was instantly quickened and went and preached the Gospel, the Good News to those unclean spirits which died BEFORE they had the opportunity to except Jesus Christ, they that died BEFORE the promised Messiah. He went to those that were on the "Other Side" of the Gulf of Luke 16. However, you must understand Luke chapter 16:19-31 to understand where Christ went while he was in the tomb. Becasue WE KNOW that in Luke chapter 16, that the souls that were on the right side of the "Gulf" could see across and communicate with those on the "other side", meaning the "wrong side", you know the side that the Rich man was on, he was on the "wrong side" of Paradise....... remember ? Don't you remember how the Rich Man could SEE Abraham, and how the Rich Man could SEE Lazarus, and they spoke with one another. Remember ?

Guibox No. 1

We know that Christ said many times that where He was going they could not come.. Why ? Because Christ would eventually go to SIT AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, and NO ONE, I mean NOBODY is going to sit at the right hand of God EXCEPT Jesus Christ ! Therefore when He appeared to Mary [John 20:17, and He told her "touch Me not", that is merely a figure of speech which means don't hold Me up; He still had work to do], He had not YET gone to SIT AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, for we know HE appears many more times to His disciples, BEFORE He goes to SIT AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD.

Luke 22:69 Christ Speaking
" Hereafter shall the Son of Man SIT ON THE RIGHT HAND OF THE POWER OF GOD. "

Mark 16:19
" So then after the Lord has Spoken unto them, He was received up to Heaven, AND SAT ON THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD. " [ His place of Honor]

So we KNOW that when Christ said " Verily [meaning Truly] I say to thee, TO DAY SHALT THOU BE WITH ME IN PARADISE [ Luke 23:43], we KNOW that this is so, because WE KNOW THAT "ONE DAY WITH THE LORD IS AS A THOUSAND YEARS AND AS THOUSAND YEARS IS A ONE DAY." [ II Peter 3:8] Meaning 1,000 years to man is as ONE DAY to the Lord. Remember how Peter told us.. " BE NOT IGONORANT" of this ? God's Word is True, God's Word does not contradict, "IF" you find yourself thinking you've come across a contradiction or problem within the Word of God, then you are in error; when this happens one must PRAY for understanding.

James 1:5
" If any of you lack wisdom, let him ASK OF GOD, THAT GIVETH TO ALL MEN LIBERALLY, And upbraitheth not [upbraideth-meaning critize] AND IT SHALL BE GIVEN. " [Not maybe , not perhaps.... It SHALL BE GIVEN YOU!]

Amen .... and amen means that is that !

Abiyah

 

[noblej6]

Hi guibox,

The LAST day is the day of the second coming (Job 14:10-14 brings this out quite clearly as does Daniel 12:1 and 2 Timothy 4:6-8) not the day we die.

Daniel 12:1-3 is discussing the resurrection of the dead, those who sleep in the dust, Daniels people. Of course they will be resurrected at the parousia or the coming of the son of man after the Great tribulation.

Job 14:10-14

10 But man dies and is laid low;
he breathes his last and is no more.

11 As water disappears from the sea
or a riverbed becomes parched and dry,

12 so man lies down and does not rise;
till the heavens are no more, men will not awake
or be roused from their sleep.

13 "If only you would hide me in the grave
and conceal me till your anger has passed!
If only you would set me a time
and then remember me!

14 If a man dies, will he live again?
All the days of my hard service
I will wait for my renewal to come.

The last day is the day of the second coming as we call it, or the return again of Jesus Christ.

You obviously don't know the usage the bible makes with this phrase.

Or you dont.

The whole thing here is mindset. I know what your belief is and it almost appears to me that you have never heard of what I am talking about.
The only disagreement we have is when that 'second coming' is. You say it is sometime in the future and all see Jesus at the same time and I say the second coming is at the time of our personal death.

The main verses of explanation here would be 25 and 26 of John 11. You copied and pasted these verses to your post twice but you never commented on them. They are very important in this discussion.

John 11
25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Martha will 'live' even tho she dies...........
Martha will nevr die............
Where is Martha?
Is Martha's earthly tent destroyed?
If so where does she go after that? 2 Cor 5

Where did Jesus go when He ascended?
Is He returning to take us to where He is?
John 14?

There is absolutely no biblical doubt that believers are supposed to go to Heaven. That is an eternal house in Heaven, so how much time do you see being left to us after eternity? 2 Cor 5

John

 

[Drew]

I will readily admit that my knowledge of the Scriptures is probably eclipsed by those participating in this debate.

For good or for bad, I allow my opinion on these matters to be informed by what I might call "philosophical" considerations. And I won't hide the fact that I believe that guibox makes what seems to me to be a compelling Biblical case against the notion of an immaterial soul.

As suggested, I have other reasons to view the notion of the immortal soul with a certain degree of skepticism. I think the very idea that an immaterial soul that somehow co-exists with the body is very awkward. I think the primary problem is the "interaction" problem - it seems unintelligible that an immaterial soul can "do the work" of "pushing the physical buttons" that seems so clearly at work in any human action.

All evidence suggests a very deep inter-relationship between the physical and the "phenomenological" (the experiential, subjective aspect of our existence). Stick a probe in any part of the brain and you can elicit all sorts of phenomenology. I am no expert in this field, but my layman's take is that the high degree of correlation between physical events in the brain (e.g. stimulation with electricity or even the application of drugs) and subjective states is an indicator of a fundamental underlying unity - not the duality that seems to be the implicit position of most Christians.

My sense is that most of us have a "received view", a pre-disposition to accept a dualist world-view. There may be many reasons for this. I believe that guibox would argue that we in the west have been influenced by Greek dualism whereas Hebrew culture had no notion of an immaterial soul. I know almost nothing about history. On balance, however, I think that a "person" is a single unified entity that cannot be separated into a "physical shell" and an "immaterial soul".

I think it is more intuitively natural to construe the physical and the phenomenological as different manifestations of some single underlying unity. The notion of an immaterial soul living in a physical shell seems fraught with conceptual traps - the prime being the interaction problem.

In short, how can an immaterial soul be responsible for causally influencing events in a material world?

 

[guibox]

Re: HUH ?

Okay.... ? Unforetunately you are in error; First and foremost the Bible DOES NOT CONTRADICT ITSELF. If you find that the Bible contradicts itself THEN you are in error. And if you are in error, that means you don't understand what the Scripture is trying to bring forth to your mind. And if you don't understand then how can you explain that in which you lack understanding ?

My point exactly. The bible doesn't contradict itself. It only contradicts itself when you try to superimpose preconceived notions into a text making it say what it doesn't say and contraditing the scripture elsewhere.

Nowhere do you see any scriptural proof my 'soul' goes to heaven. However you see much proof saying that eternal life is only realized at the resurrection of the righteous dead.

Secondly, lets look at.....

Guibox No. 1 & 4 For it is written

I Peter 3:18-19
" For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, BUT QUICKENED [ meaning made alive eternally] by the Spirit; BY WHICH HE ALSO WENT AND PREACHED UNTO THE SPIRITS IN PRISION. "

So then here is your Scriptural EVIDENCE that while Jesus Christ was in the tomb, He was instantly quickened and went and preached the Gospel, the Good News to those unclean spirits which died BEFORE they had the opportunity to except Jesus Christ, they that died BEFORE the promised Messiah.

Far from scriptural proof, Abiyah. You have problems here:

1) Nowhere else is this thinking supported in scripture
2) Nowhere in the bible does it support conscious 'spirits' being held somewhere to be preached to. Rather (especially in the OT) the whole person 'sleeps' in the grave awating judgment
3) You ignore the context of the verse and the surrounding verses to fit your preconceived notion

First of all, this verse is talking about the power of the Spirit. 'BY WHICH'..You seem to ignore the importance of the usage of these two words. Second, for this to fit your theory, this would mean that Christ preached ONLY to those 'spirits' around the time of the flood and not of any Old Testament soul who never heard the gospel

Problems...

This verse mentions that Christ died and was quickened by the Spirit. So Christ is already raised by the Spirit. What else did this Spirit do?

BY WHICH..In other words, 'in the same method' of..or 'using'..'by the Spirit's power" Christ preached to the spirits in prison

WHEN??? When did this preaching occur?

You assume it is at His death...the verse doesn' t say that!

WHEN?

"As was in the days of Noah when only six people entered the ark and were saved"

Who preached to the people of Noah's day?
How did Christ preach?

Through Noah!

Noah, in the spirit preached to those lost (in a spiritual prison) but they didn't listen! Only 8 were saved!

You are trying to link two things together to occur at the same time. You are also assuming that this 'prison' was for departed spirits (Hades or Sheol)

That is error..

First of all the usage of the words for 'spirits' here does not mean some ethereal immortal substance after death, but the person. Second, the spirit that you want to make this be returns to God who gave it at death, both good and bad (Ecclesiastes brings this out)

Second you are trying to make 'spirit' and 'soul' interchangeable to mean the same thing.

Apparently you didn't look at my links on the 'soul' and the 'spirit'

He went to those that were on the "Other Side" of the Gulf of Luke 16. However, you must understand Luke chapter 16:19-31 to understand where Christ went while he was in the tomb. Becasue WE KNOW that in Luke chapter 16, that the souls that were on the right side of the "Gulf" could see across and communicate with those on the "other side", meaning the "wrong side", you know the side that the Rich man was on, he was on the "wrong side" of Paradise....... remember ? Don't you remember how the Rich Man could SEE Abraham, and how the Rich Man could SEE Lazarus, and they spoke with one another. Remember ?

I'm not sure how you can honestly link this metaphorical parable to support 1 Peter. First of all there is no 'spirit' in hell but a physical body with ears, tongue and fingers. Second, nowhere else is such Jewish superstition influenced by pagan Greeks found anywhere else in the Bible for support.

As far as the nature of the parable and its meaning, I suggest you look at this thread for more information...

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=12203

We know that Christ said many times that where He was going they could not come.. Why ? Because Christ would eventually go to SIT AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, and NO ONE, I mean NOBODY is going to sit at the right hand of God EXCEPT Jesus Christ ! Therefore when He appeared to Mary [John 20:17, and He told her "touch Me not", that is merely a figure of speech which means don't hold Me up; He still had work to do], He had not YET gone to SIT AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, for we know HE appears many more times to His disciples, BEFORE He goes to SIT AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD.

Luke 22:69 Christ Speaking
" Hereafter shall the Son of Man SIT ON THE RIGHT HAND OF THE POWER OF GOD. "

Mark 16:19
" So then after the Lord has Spoken unto them, He was received up to Heaven, AND SAT ON THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD. " [ His place of Honor]

This has nothing to do with the fact that Christ had not yet ascended to heaven to claim His throne. He died, was resurrected and like Peter said, 'God didn't leave His soul (life) in the grave (Sheol/Hades)" Acts 2:34
Christ didn't go to heaven but rose from the grave thus claiming life over death.

Read 1 Corinthians 15. It clearly says that death was only conquered through Christ's resurrection...If that is the case, then Christ didn't have power over death until then.

Are you hearing what the Bible is saying, Abiyah?? Victory over death in ANY fashion could NOT have occurred without Christ's resurrection FIRST!!

Therefore it is illogical and theologically impossible that He was a conscious soul roaming around the underworld preaching to lost souls in hell!

So we KNOW that when Christ said " Verily [meaning Truly] I say to thee, TO DAY SHALT THOU BE WITH ME IN PARADISE [ Luke 23:43], we KNOW that this is so, because WE KNOW THAT "ONE DAY WITH THE LORD IS AS A THOUSAND YEARS AND AS THOUSAND YEARS IS A ONE DAY." [ II Peter 3:8] Meaning 1,000 years to man is as ONE DAY to the Lord. Remember how Peter told us.. " BE NOT IGONORANT" of this ? God's Word is True, God's Word does not contradict, "IF" you find yourself thinking you've come across a contradiction or problem within the Word of God, then you are in error; when this happens one must PRAY for understanding.

"If Christ is not raised from the dead then the dead do not raise and ye are still yet in your sins, therefore those that have fallen asleep in Christ are perished"

Pretty strong words that link Christ's resurrection to the second coming resurrection to life. Without one, the other doesn't happen. Christ didn't go to heaven at death, He couldn't have promised to be in paradise with the thief that very day...The thief knew Christ would come the second time in His kingdom and asked Christ to remember him. Christ still needed to be raised from the dead for victory over death to be assured.

Not at death...

Pretty plain, Abiyah

You obviously didn't read my Resurrection or Immortality link I provided.
Perhaps you should it read it thoroughly and point your finger at yourself as far as whether you speak the truth or merely knee-jerk interpretations of bible texts taken out of context...

 

[guibox]

Daniel 12:1-3 is discussing the resurrection of the dead, those who sleep in the dust, Daniels people. Of course they will be resurrected at the parousia or the coming of the son of man after the Great tribulation.

Job 14:10-14

10 But man dies and is laid low;
he breathes his last and is no more.

11 As water disappears from the sea
or a riverbed becomes parched and dry,

12 so man lies down and does not rise;
till the heavens are no more, men will not awake
or be roused from their sleep.

13 "If only you would hide me in the grave
and conceal me till your anger has passed!
If only you would set me a time
and then remember me!

14 If a man dies, will he live again?
All the days of my hard service
I will wait for my renewal to come.

The last day is the day of the second coming as we call it, or the return again of Jesus Christ.

And this doesn't differ one iota in the New Testament!

"And marvel not at this for the hour is coming in the which all that are in their graves shall hear his voice and come forth! The righteous to eternal life, the wicked to eternal damnation"
- John 5:28,29

1 Corinthians 15 completely reiterates all these verses an clarifies this 'Day' even further. Nevermind that it directly links with 1 Thesslonians 4:13-16 which is the parousia, not individual death

It is gratuitous assumption and creative thinking, not proper biblical hermeneutics that tries to split these verses into two concepts and two events.

You say it is sometime in the future and all see Jesus at the same time and I say the second coming is at the time of our personal death.

And you have no support to believe such when all the talk of the resurrection of the just speaks of the parousia, the second coming of Christ at the end of the world.

To believe anything else is to believe fairy tales based on misinterpretation and assumption of certain bible texts such as John 11 as you seem to promote.

John 11
25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Martha will 'live' even tho she dies...........
Martha will nevr die............
Where is Martha?
Is Martha's earthly tent destroyed?
If so where does she go after that? 2 Cor 5

Where did Jesus go when He ascended?
Is He returning to take us to where He is?
John 14?

There is absolutely no biblical doubt that believers are supposed to go to Heaven. That is an eternal house in Heaven, so how much time do you see being left to us after eternity? 2 Cor 5

John

Again, one can be physically dead without being spiritually dead. The spiriutal death doesn't take effect until the end of the world. The righteous are saved from the eternal death. However, it is assumption to say that "You will never die immediately after this physical death"

I can be physically dead and still make claims over the 'eternal/spiritual death' because I know that God will ransom my soul from the grave at the appropriate time.

Strange that Martha herself believe in the resurreciton at the end of time to eternal life. Where did she learn this concept from? Perhaps at the feet of Jesus where she and Mary spent so much time?

Again, Jesus reiterated what he meant in John 6:40,47

"He who believes in me shall never die and I will raise him up at the last day"

You would like to believe this 'last day' means the last day of our physical life but the bible doesn't support that. Were that the case, my entire body would be raised up in new flesh. Nowhere other than the second coming does this amazing event occur.

I must say, noble, that even the most avid 'my soul goes to heaven' supporter has EVER had the 'balls' to try and interpret 1 Corinthians 15 the way you do...perhaps because there is no exegetical merit to it.

 

[noblej6]

Hi guibox,

I must say, noble, that even the most avid 'my soul goes to heaven' supporter has EVER had the 'balls' to try and interpret 1 Corinthians 15 the way you do...perhaps because there is no exegetical merit to it.

I have renewed faith in my fellow man, finally a guy that says what he thinks ...........................except that your conclusion is flawed.

And this doesn't differ one iota in the New Testament!

Well, I like to think that the Old T and the New T agree.

1 Corinthians 15 completely reiterates all these verses an clarifies this 'Day' even further. Nevermind that it directly links with 1 Thesslonians 4:13-16 which is the parousia, not individual death

Here you go. Yes, 1 Thess 4 is talking about the parousia, the Greek word for come/presense in verse 15 is parousia.
1 Cor 15:51 is again using the Greek word 'parousia.'

The first resurrection(Rev 20) and the general resurrection as talked about in Daniel 12:1-3, John 5 and Matthew 25 is at/near the time of, that PAROUSIA. That is the coming of the son of man on the clouds AFTER the GREAT tribulation.
So let's go to Rev 14. Verse 14 to the end of the chapter are describing that great harvest.It starts with this verse.....
14I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one "like a son of man"

And ends with this thought......

19The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath.

There is a definate connection to what is written in Matthew 13.....

37He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

The end of the age it is. I pointed out to you before when the end of the age was, it is shown right here:
Hebrews 9
26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Then the final crunch. When this end of the age thing is over, John is told this:

13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."

So yes, those who die AFTER the PAROUSIA are blessed, AFTER the end of the age. BECAUSE the end of the age, the parousia was ove in the first century.
Jesus presense became manifest among men and He now preforms what we call the second coming at the death of each individual. Some are judged righteous and some are raised to be condemned, but it is at their personal death.
1 Cor 15:51

51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

See that bit about putting on immortality? That is pretty hard to do as a living physical being because .....

It is appointed for men to die, then comes the judgment.

Being immortal means you cannot die.

Now one more time...where is Martha?

If you have any concerns about the parousia being in 70 AD, I'll quoed you one verse that has blacked out the screens of everybody I've discussed it with.

John

 

[Bick]

Do we go to heaven when we die?

Nuta: the answer is NO. When anyone dies he is dead until resurrected.

Abiya, listen to Guibox. Better yet, do a word study on "soul" and see what all scripture has to say.

Briefly, you will find, using an exhaustive concordance, that man does not contain a soul, as if it was something separate. Gen.2:7 says "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." AV

It will be seen that the Scriptures relate knowledge, memory, thought, love, joy, delight, bitterness, impatience, mourning, sorrow, grief, abhorrence and hatred to the soul.

SOUL could be said to be the consciousness, the feelings, the desires, produced by the breath of life vitalizing the body.

Many times man is called a "soul" in the Scriptures: See Gen. 12:5; 46:26;
Exod. 12:4; Acts 2:41 and 43; 1 Cor.15:45 etc.

When man dies, his ability to have any consciousness, any feelings dies, or is gone, or disappears. The soul is said to die or be dead:

Lev. 24:17 "And he that killeth any man (soul in Heb.) shall surely be put to death." See also: Num. 23:10; Josh.10:28; 10:30,32,35,37,39; 11:11;
Jer. 2:24; Ezek. 13:19; 22:25-27.

When a person dies, he returns to dust (the body); His soul, his consciousness, goes to the unseen (hades in Gk.), and his spirit, his invisible life force related to breath, returns to God who gave it. Eccl.10:7

God bless, Bick

 

[SputnikBoy]

Re: Do we go to heaven when we die?

Nuta: the answer is NO. When anyone dies he is dead until resurrected.

Abiya, listen to Guibox. Better yet, do a word study on "soul" and see what all scripture has to say.

Briefly, you will find, using an exhaustive concordance, that man does not contain a soul, as if it was something separate. Gen.2:7 says "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." AV

It will be seen that the Scriptures relate knowledge, memory, thought, love, joy, delight, bitterness, impatience, mourning, sorrow, grief, abhorrence and hatred to the soul.

SOUL could be said to be the consciousness, the feelings, the desires, produced by the breath of life vitalizing the body.

Many times man is called a "soul" in the Scriptures: See Gen. 12:5; 46:26;
Exod. 12:4; Acts 2:41 and 43; 1 Cor.15:45 etc.

When man dies, his ability to have any consciousness, any feelings dies, or is gone, or disappears. The soul is said to die or be dead:

Lev. 24:17 "And he that killeth any man (soul in Heb.) shall surely be put to death." See also: Num. 23:10; Josh.10:28; 10:30,32,35,37,39; 11:11;
Jer. 2:24; Ezek. 13:19; 22:25-27.

When a person dies, he returns to dust (the body); His soul, his consciousness, goes to the unseen (hades in Gk.), and his spirit, his invisible life force related to breath, returns to God who gave it. Eccl.10:7

God bless, Bick

Sputnik: Exactly. Genesis 2:7 tells us that "...the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being (soul)." Compare this to the text you gave above ...which is, in fact, Ecclesiastes 12:7: "...and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it."

The discription of death as found in Ecclesiastes 12:7 is merely (merely ...???) a reversal of the action found in Genesis 2:7. Seems to me that the doctrine of 'soul sleep' - i.e. the doctrine that the dead sleep in their graves until Jesus' Second Coming - is anything BUT false!

 

[noblej6]

Hi Spudnik,

The discription of death as found in Ecclesiastes 12:7 is merely (merely ...???) a reversal of the action found in Genesis 2:7. Seems to me that the doctrine of 'soul sleep' - i.e. the doctrine that the dead sleep in their graves until Jesus' Second Coming - is anything BUT false!

The doctrine that the dead sleep in their graves is correct. That sleep in the grave thing ends at the parousia or the last trumpet as per 1 Cor 15:51. That is the time of the general resurrection of those who sleep as shown in 1 Thess 4:13-18.

As I have said many times here Martha was one who would not die(sleep) so where is she? John 11:25,26

Anyhow I agree that sleeping in the grave aware of nothing is biblical..............it changes to heavenly life at the parousia.

John

 

[guibox]

The doctrine that the dead sleep in their graves is correct. That sleep in the grave thing ends at the parousia or the last trumpet as per 1 Cor 15:51. That is the time of the general resurrection of those who sleep as shown in 1 Thess 4:13-18.

And I can't fully understand how you can say this resurrection occurs at death. 1 Corinthians 15 is definitely talking about the parousia at the resurrection.

As I have said many times here Martha was one who would not die(sleep) so where is she? John 11:25,26

Anyhow I agree that sleeping in the grave aware of nothing is biblical..............it changes to heavenly life at the parousia.

John[/quote]

Martha is not eternally dead. She will be raised from the grave...at the appointed time of the resurrection. She is still physically dead, she is not eternally dead. In this Christ's words are true. Again, I say. You can be still be physically dead but not suffer the second death, or eternal death. This is what we are saved from. This is what culminates in the resurrection body at the end of time.

In other words, Martha is pushing up daisies with all the rest of the dead...

 

[noblej6]

Hi guibox,

Martha is not eternally dead.

Jesus told Martha right to her face that she would never die. I assume Jesus knew what He was talking about and therefore Martha DID NOT die. Not only is she not eternally dead, she is not dead at all and never has been. Yet you and I both know that Martha is not still walking around the Middle East and you and I both know that Martha has long since physically died. If you could find Martha's grave she, or at least the dust she has decayed to would still be there...yet Martha is alive because Jesus said she would never die. What are the choices here? It isn't WAITING for some resurrection because Martha has already physically died and come to some form of life because Jeus said she would never die.

She will be raised from the grave...at the appointed time of the resurrection.

No, she won't, not her physical body anyway, only the spiritual Martha leaves the grave to go to Heaven and that spiritual Martha has to be in Heaven now because Jesu said she would never die.

She is still physically dead, she is not eternally dead.

Yes she is physically dead, her natural earthly body is dead and will always be dead, she now lives in a spiritual body because 1 Cor 15 shows us there are only two options.

In this Christ's words are true. Again, I say. You can be still be physically dead but not suffer the second death, or eternal death. This is what we are saved from. This is what culminates in the resurrection body at the end of time.

Yes, you can be physically dead and not suffer the second death because the second death is the judgment to the wicked side of things. Yes, that second death is what we are saved from.

Show me anywhere in the bible where it talks about Martha ...or me having to wait to be resurrected until the end of time. The time of the end for those before the parousia but little is said about the end of time.

Show me what you are using to arrive at a resurrection at the END of TIME.

The resurrection of the dead occurs at the time of the end which is not the end of time.

The resurrection is to a spiritual heavenly being not a physical earthly one.

So Martha's physical body is pushing daisys, but Martha lives in the heavenly realm as we type.

John

 

[SputnikBoy]

Hi Noble, Spudnik here (I like that spelling of my name!)

I presume that you are a Christian and that you believe you are saved. Right? Jesus, then, could say to your face the very same thing that He said to Martha. He could say, "Noble, you will never die." Does this mean that you will never die a 'physical death'? Well, unless Jesus returns in your lifetime, you CERTAINLY WILL die a physical death. Would that mean Jesus was wrong in saying that you would never die? Not at all. Your physical death is a mere 'sleep' (as you seem to agree) and does not in any way take away from the fact that everlasting life for you has already been assured. In the scheme of things ...you will never die.

John 3:16, tells us, "For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life." Do the righteous perish 'physically'? Yes, of course. Does this make John 3:16 wrong? Not at all. Even though those who believe in Jesus might be physically dead, they have received eternal life. Get the point? I think we can apply this example of scripture to that of Martha. As guibox said, while Martha is still resting in her grave, she WAS given the assurance by Jesus of having received everlasting life. Jesus was right ...she will NEVER die.

 

[noblej6]

Hi Sputnik! Sorry about the spelling ,,

I presume that you are a Christian and that you believe you are saved. Right? Jesus, then, could say to your face the very same thing that He said to Martha. He could say, "Noble, you will never die." Does this mean that you will never die a 'physical death'?

It can not mean that because that IS what Jesus said to Martha and she did physically die. Therefore saying you will never die does NOT mean physical natural earthly death.

Well, unless Jesus returns in your lifetime, you CERTAINLY WILL die a physical death.

The second coming for me does not occur in my lifetime. It occurs at the time of my death. Just as it occurred at the time of Martha's death for her. Just as it occurred at the time of the death of "they" as described in the Olivet Discourse. That is the only conclusion available as you put the following verses together.

Hebrews 9
27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

Who does the judging?
John 5
22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,


Who does the judgment involve?
2 Cor 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Judged so as to arrive in Heaven or Hell.....

How soon does this judgment take place? Fast enough that Jesus can tell Martha that she will NEVER die. Sure she will physically die but she is born again a spiritual being instantly and recieves her heavenly reward of eternal life as in 2 Cor 5:1.

John 11:25,26

25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

John tells us that flesh and blood can not enter the kingdom of Heaven/kingdom of God, unless they are born again. TYhis isn't an earthly religious experience such as the time of accepting Christ, this is death where a person os born again a spiritual being as per 1 Cor 15.

Would that mean Jesus was wrong in saying that you would never die? Not at all. Your physical death is a mere 'sleep' (as you seem to agree) and does not in any way take away from the fact that everlasting life for you has already been assured. In the scheme of things ...you will never die.

Physical death IS a mere sleep, but only until the time of the parousia or the last trumpet as it says here:
1 Cor 15
51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep,.....................

The trick is, the parousia has happened therfore nobody has to 'sleep' anymore, they are all judged a death. Hebrews 9:27

To determine the truth of that you need only answer this question.
In the following verse define the meanin of the first "we" in the sentence. Then define the meaning of the second "we."

1 Thess 4
15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Even though those who believe in Jesus might be physically dead, they have received eternal life. Get the point? I think we can apply this example of scripture to that of Martha. As guibox said, while Martha is still resting in her grave, she WAS given the assurance by Jesus of having received everlasting life. Jesus was right ...she will NEVER die.

Martha is not resting in her grave, she has been spiritually resurrected to Heaven where she will be eternally. Jesus said she would never die, never sleep. The significance being that in Paul's time it became unnecessary for believers to 'sleep' in the dust as it says in the verses above that I quoted.

Jesus told Martha she would never die. Paul tells us that not all of those he was writing to will have to SLEEP.

John