Do you believe in hell?

[By Grace]

By Grace,

I thought you also were trying to make a statement about (disagreeing with) my approach as well - or particularly. Is that true?

Oz

If you are referring to post #142, I was neither agreeing nor disagreeing with anyone. Instead, I thought of how DRS81 might have thought that her approach was logical, then I compared it with my approach. I thought that I explained that in my post #162.

You were not involved in that first post (142) except to see my manner of approaching a systematic study of Scripture, but in post 162, you were involved because I was answering your question what and why I made in post 142.

We are both familiar with rhetoric and fallacies of logic, so we understand that to identify a logical fallacy of a statement is to invalidate both the statement, and the premise upon which it is based. Because DRS81 did not respond to my earlier challenges based on identifying errors of logic, I wanted to change MY APPROACH to do things differently. My choosing to respond differently in order to seek a better understanding from her does not invalidate your approach. Therefore, I wonder why you chose to believe that I was somehow putting you down, because that is indeed an error of logic. (couldn't resist that! the devil made me do it )

 

[JLB]

JLB,

You asked, 'Show me how knowing the meaning of these Greek words produces faith'.

Would you please show me how anyone can read the NT in an English translation without someone having the knowledge of Greek grammar to be able to translate into English? I would not be able to read the English Bible to know what produces faith if it were not for those who engaged in the arduous task of learning Greek and translating from Greek to English.

You rightly stated, 'anything not from faith is sin. Romans 14:23'. How would you know that statement in the English Bible is correct without someone knowing how to translate from Greek to English?

Why is learning Greek grammar NOT from faith? Are you saying that my learning Greek conjugations and declensions so that I can translate Greek into English is not something in which a faithful Christian engages?

You stated:

But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 1:27​

This reference number seems to be a typo and should be 1 John 2:27 as there are only 10 verses in ch 1. So what is 'the anointing' in your understanding? This word is used only twice in the entire NT, 1 John 2:20, 27. By the way, there is no definite article, 'the', in the Greek so it refers to 'an anointment' - chrisma - from the Holy One (1 John 2:20 ESV). What makes you think that this 'anointment from the Holy One' is related to your statement, 'If the Holy Spirit leads a person to become a Greek scholar then that person should perfect what The Spirit gives him to do'. This is related to God's gifts and not to 'an anointment' that all Christians receive from the Holy One.

All believers having 'an anointment' from the Holy One cannot clash with this exhortation from God: 'Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth' (2 Tim 2:15 NASB).

Oz

Faith has nothing to do with reading the New Testament.


Again, please explain or show how knowing the meaning of a Greek word produces faith.


If you can't answer this simple question, then knowing the meaning of those two Greek words must have no significance.


Can you tell me what is the rock that Jesus will build His Church? [Hint] You don't have to know any Greek words to know this answer.


JLB

 

[OzSpen]

I am well aware that "sleep" is a metaphor for death. The significance is that it is used only of believers, because they will be raised to new life at a later time. So it simply cannot refer to just the appearance of one who is dead, as this would pertain to the unbeliever as well.

In this case, if one takes Jesus' words, "everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die," to mean that the "unseen soul goes immediately into the presence of the Lord," they are reading into the passage something that isn't there. Looking at the context:

Joh 11:23 Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again."
Joh 11:24 Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."
Joh 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,
Joh 11:26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?" (ESV)

Verses 23 and 24 clearly have to do with rising again, being resurrected. Jesus responds to Martha with "I am the resurrection and the life." What follows in the rest of verse 25 and in verse 26 is based on that statement. We simply cannot take verse 26 as referring to an "unseen soul [that] goes immediately into the presence of the Lord" because Jesus had just said that "whoever believes in me, though he die, yet he shall live." The two verses would be in contradiction if this was the case.

So verse 26 could mean at least a couple of things. It could be a reference to his return, that those alive at his coming who are believers will never see death. Or, it could simply be that the Greek shows something a little different--"shall never die" is better rendered, "shall not die forever," or "shall not die to the age." The emphasis is once again that death is temporary and that one will be resurrected.

As for 2 Cor 5:8, I addressed that previously. It says nothing that immediately at death one's soul goes into the presence of the Lord. That, again, is to read something into the text that isn't there. Paul is simply stating a preference of being with the Lord.

Free,

Because of my time limitations, I will address only your first paragraph and 'sleep' referring not to unbelievers in Scripture.

Let Us Reason ministries agrees with you in your view that 'sleep' is not used of unbelievers:

So, let's look at the word sleep, because that's what's crucial here. What does sleep mean? The Bible uses this term when speaking of death in that the physical body, a dead body, looks very similar in this state. It's always referring to the physical body, not the soul. It is the appearance of the body that is sleeping, no one is able to see the spirit . It is also a term used exclusively for believers. The term sleeping, in reference to death, is not used for unbelievers. I find that to be crucial in understanding what the Bible is trying to portray to us when it says that the dead in Christ are sleeping (see 'Soul Sleep').​

I do not have the time to check out the number of times 'sleep' is referred to death in Scripture and if there is any mention of 'sleep' of unbelievers at death. The important issue is: Where will the unbelievers be one second after their last breath?

We have some evidence from Scripture that

1. Unbelievers, at death, are sent in the Intermediate State to what some have called a temporary holding place (Hades). There they wait for their final resurrection, judgment, and eternal destiny. Although there are divergent views, this seems to be taught in Luke 16:22-23 (ESV) where a rich unbelieving man at death immediately experiences torment.
2. Then we get an ultimate picture of what will eventually happen. In Revelation 20:11-15 (ESV) there is a description of the unbelieving dead, resurrected and then facing the great white throne judgment. Then they are cast into the lake of fire.
3. So, at death, unbelievers are not sent to the lake of fire, but to a temporary realm of punishment - Hades. Unbelievers eventually will be sent to the lake of fire after the great white throne judgment. At death, their experience in Hades is unpleasant. It is similar to that experienced by the rich man who cried out, “I am in anguish in this flame” (Luke 16:24 ESV).

 

[OzSpen]

Faith has nothing to do with reading the New Testament.

Again, please explain or show how knowing the meaning of a Greek word produces faith.

If you can't answer this simple question, then knowing the meaning of those two Greek words must have no significance.

Can you tell me what is the rock that Jesus will build His Church? [Hint] You don't have to know any Greek words to know this answer.

JLB

JLB,

So the meaning of a Greek word does not produce faith,you say. That's not what my Greek text tells me (remember the NT was first written in koine Greek). What does Rom 10:17 NIV teach? 'Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ'.

So faith comes from hearing the message of Christ. Where is the message of Christ contained for all people since the death of the 12 apostles? Through oral tradition and then through Scripture. I wouldn't be here today communicating with you if faith did not come through God using 'the word about Christ' in Scripture.

I urge you not to denigrate the Greek NT like this.

You asked me: 'please explain or show how knowing the meaning of a Greek word produces faith.' I thought I answered that in my last post to you. Faith comes from hearing the message, the word about Christ. There is no word about Christ except through that communicated via the Scripture in the 21st century.

Where do you obtain your word about Christ (Rom 10:17 NIV)? Please remember that the English NT is based on the Greek. We would have no English without the foundation of the original NT language - koine Greek. So knowing the meaning of a Greek word, grammar, and syntax helps us to get English translations from which we preach the Gospel.

Again, I urge you not to denigrate the original language of the NT - koine Greek. Without it, we would not have an English translation.

Romans 10:17 (SBL Greek Testament) reads: ἄρα ἡ πίστις ἐξ ἀκοῆς, ἡ δὲ ἀκοὴ διὰ ῥήματος Χριστοῦ.

 

[JLB]

JLB,

So the meaning of a Greek word does not produce faith,you say. That's not what my Greek text tells me (remember the NT was first written in koine Greek). What does Rom 10:17 NIV teach? 'Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ'.

So faith comes from hearing the message of Christ. Where is the message of Christ contained for all people since the death of the 12 apostles? Through oral tradition and then through Scripture. I wouldn't be here today communicating with you if faith did not come through God using 'the word about Christ' in Scripture.

I urge you not to denigrate the Greek NT like this.

You asked me: 'please explain or show how knowing the meaning of a Greek word produces faith.' I thought I answered that in my last post to you. Faith comes from hearing the message, the word about Christ. There is no word about Christ except through that communicated via the Scripture in the 21st century.

Where do you obtain your word about Christ (Rom 10:17 NIV)? Please remember that the English NT is based on the Greek. We would have no English without the foundation of the original NT language - koine Greek. So knowing the meaning of a Greek word, grammar, and syntax helps us to get English translations from which we preach the Gospel.

Again, I urge you not to denigrate the original language of the NT - koine Greek. Without it, we would not have an English translation.

Romans 10:17 (SBL Greek Testament) reads: ἄρα ἡ πίστις ἐξ ἀκοῆς, ἡ δὲ ἀκοὴ διὰ ῥήματος Χριστοῦ.

Sorry Brother,

Faith is not found in the scripture.

The irony of that is, it is scripture itself that teaches this very truth.

." 14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? Romans 10:14

Where is the written scripture in this formula for faith, the preaching of the Gospel by those who God has sent?


By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Hebrews 11:7

What scripture did Noah read to acquire the faith...

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8

What scripture did Abraham read that caused him to go out to a place not knowing where he was going?


Answer: None.

Because faith doesn't come by reading the scriptures.

Faith comes by hearing God Himself.


Again brother, I ask you, can you tell me, what is the rock that Jesus will build His Church upon...


15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. Matthew 16:15-18


JLB

 

[Willie T]

Could the NT writers have simply come up a little short by not saying "Salvation" Faith comes by hearing the word about Christ?

 

[By Grace]

JLB,
Please tell me how, following your suggested methodology here, you are going to know the meaning of ἐκδημῆσαι and ἐνδημῆσαι.
Oz

Try this. The English grammar words are accurately describing the Greek in 2 Corinthians 5:8:


ἐκδημῆσαι (Root: δημος, LN: 85.20; verb, aorist, active, infinitive)
to leave, to be absent
Contained in: Infinitival Clause
Syntactic Force: Complementary infinitive

Words Modified by ἐκδημῆσαι
• verb-to-verb relation: The word ἐκδημῆσαι modifies εὐδοκοῦμεν (verb) in 2Co 5:8, word 4 (εὐδοκοῦμεν is outside of the current clausal unit).

Words That Modify ἐκδημῆσαι
• prepositional relation: The word ἐκδημῆσαι is modified by ἐκ (preposition) in 2Co 5:8, word 7 (ἐκ is outside of the current clausal unit).
• conjunctive relation: The word ἐκδημῆσαι is modified by καὶ (conjunction) in 2Co 5:8, word 10 (καὶ is outside of the current clausal unit).
ἐκ (Root: εκ, LN: 89.121; preposition)
from
Contained in: Prepositional Phrase
Syntactic Force: Preposition of separation

Lukaszewski, A. L., & Dubis, M. (2009). The Lexham Syntactic Greek New Testament: Expansions and Annotations (2 Co 5:8).


ἐνδημέω: to be in a place where one rightfully or normally belongs—‘to be at home, to fit in a place.’ ἐνδημῆσαι πρὸς τὸν κύριον ‘to be at home with the Lord’ 2 Cor 5:8.

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains. New York: United Bible Societies.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ἐνδημῆσαι (Root: δημος, LN: 85.20; verb, aorist, active, infinitive)
to be at home
Contained in: Infinitival Clause
Syntactic Force: Complementary infinitive

Words That Modify ἐνδημῆσαι
• conjunctive relation: The word ἐνδημῆσαι is modified by καὶ (conjunction) in 2Co 5:8, word 10 (καὶ is outside of the current clausal unit).
• prepositional relation: The word ἐνδημῆσαι is modified by πρὸς (preposition) in 2Co 5:8, word 12 (πρὸς is outside of the current clausal unit).
πρὸς (Root: προς, LN: 89.7; preposition)
with
Contained in: Prepositional Phrase
Syntactic Force: Preposition of direction

Words Modified by πρὸς
• prepositional relation: The word πρὸς modifies ἐνδημῆσαι (verb) in 2Co 5:8, word 11 (ἐνδημῆσαι is outside of the current clausal unit).
τὸν (Root: ο, LN: 92.24; article, accusative, singular, masculine)
the
Contained in: Prepositional Phrase
Syntactic Force: Attributive article

Words Modified by τὸν
• articular relation: The word τὸν modifies κύριον (noun) in 2Co 5:8, word 14 (κύριον is within the current clausal unit, after τὸν).


Lukaszewski, A. L., & Dubis, M. (2009). The Lexham Syntactic Greek New Testament: Expansions and Annotations (2 Co 5:8). Logos Bible Software.



ἐνδημέω: to be in a place where one rightfully or normally belongs—‘to be at home, to fit in a place.’ ἐνδημῆσαι πρὸς τὸν κύριον ‘to be at home with the Lord’ 2 Cor 5:8.

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains. New York: United Bible Societies.

With this post, you have the EXACT grammar of the words ion their context, and you also have the definitions from an advanced Lexicon, meaning in more depth than Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich Greek Lexicon

Therefore there is no need for quibbling. There is no need for guessing the meaning, or attempting to use a translation/paraphrase that "has its own agenda". I say this because when we looked at the other translations, and the actual word that Paul used regarding "naked" previously, we caught the New Living Translation in a significant error. As you might guess, I try to be as accurate as I can.

 

[By Grace]

Sorry Brother,

Faith is not found in the scripture.

<SNIP>
What scripture did Abraham read that caused him to go out to a place not knowing where he was going?


Answer: None.

Because faith doesn't come by reading the scriptures.

Faith comes by hearing God Himself.


Again brother, I ask you, can you tell me, what is the rock that Jesus will build His Church upon...


15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. Matthew 16:15-18

JLB

BTW are you aware that "Peter" is an anglicized pronunciation of the Greek word transliterated petros. In Greek, it means "rock". That is evidence that Jesus was surely using a pun as well as stating the truth.

Hebrews 11:1 Now FAITH is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3 Through FAITH we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
4 By FAITH Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5 By FAITH Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without FAITH it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
7 By FAITH Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
8 By FAITH Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By FAITH he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11 Through FAITH also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him FAITHful who had promised KJV​

In these 11 verses, it is used 10 times. Therefore faith is REALLY important.

 

[By Grace]

Could the NT writers have simply come up a little short by not saying "Salvation" Faith comes by hearing the word about Christ? emphasis added by BG

I doubt that is the case:

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! KJV​

.
The fallen angels know all ABOUT Jesus Christ, and they are unwilling to admit that He came to earth. Yet no one can say that the fallen angels are saved. As a result, it is NOT knowledge that saves us, it is our belief, plus the grace of God, calling us to Him. That is why I chose my user name.

 

[JLB]

Try this. The English grammar words are accurately describing the Greek in 2 Corinthians 5:8:


ἐκδημῆσαι (Root: δημος, LN: 85.20; verb, aorist, active, infinitive)
to leave, to be absent
Contained in: Infinitival Clause
Syntactic Force: Complementary infinitive

Words Modified by ἐκδημῆσαι
• verb-to-verb relation: The word ἐκδημῆσαι modifies εὐδοκοῦμεν (verb) in 2Co 5:8, word 4 (εὐδοκοῦμεν is outside of the current clausal unit).

Words That Modify ἐκδημῆσαι
• prepositional relation: The word ἐκδημῆσαι is modified by ἐκ (preposition) in 2Co 5:8, word 7 (ἐκ is outside of the current clausal unit).
• conjunctive relation: The word ἐκδημῆσαι is modified by καὶ (conjunction) in 2Co 5:8, word 10 (καὶ is outside of the current clausal unit).
ἐκ (Root: εκ, LN: 89.121; preposition)
from
Contained in: Prepositional Phrase
Syntactic Force: Preposition of separation

Lukaszewski, A. L., & Dubis, M. (2009). The Lexham Syntactic Greek New Testament: Expansions and Annotations (2 Co 5:8).


ἐνδημέω: to be in a place where one rightfully or normally belongs—‘to be at home, to fit in a place.’ ἐνδημῆσαι πρὸς τὸν κύριον ‘to be at home with the Lord’ 2 Cor 5:8.

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains. New York: United Bible Societies.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ἐνδημῆσαι (Root: δημος, LN: 85.20; verb, aorist, active, infinitive)
to be at home
Contained in: Infinitival Clause
Syntactic Force: Complementary infinitive

Words That Modify ἐνδημῆσαι
• conjunctive relation: The word ἐνδημῆσαι is modified by καὶ (conjunction) in 2Co 5:8, word 10 (καὶ is outside of the current clausal unit).
• prepositional relation: The word ἐνδημῆσαι is modified by πρὸς (preposition) in 2Co 5:8, word 12 (πρὸς is outside of the current clausal unit).
πρὸς (Root: προς, LN: 89.7; preposition)
with
Contained in: Prepositional Phrase
Syntactic Force: Preposition of direction

Words Modified by πρὸς
• prepositional relation: The word πρὸς modifies ἐνδημῆσαι (verb) in 2Co 5:8, word 11 (ἐνδημῆσαι is outside of the current clausal unit).
τὸν (Root: ο, LN: 92.24; article, accusative, singular, masculine)
the
Contained in: Prepositional Phrase
Syntactic Force: Attributive article

Words Modified by τὸν
• articular relation: The word τὸν modifies κύριον (noun) in 2Co 5:8, word 14 (κύριον is within the current clausal unit, after τὸν).


Lukaszewski, A. L., & Dubis, M. (2009). The Lexham Syntactic Greek New Testament: Expansions and Annotations (2 Co 5:8). Logos Bible Software.



ἐνδημέω: to be in a place where one rightfully or normally belongs—‘to be at home, to fit in a place.’ ἐνδημῆσαι πρὸς τὸν κύριον ‘to be at home with the Lord’ 2 Cor 5:8.

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains. New York: United Bible Societies.

With this post, you have the EXACT grammar of the words ion their context, and you also have the definitions from an advanced Lexicon, meaning in more depth than Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich Greek Lexicon

Therefore there is no need for quibbling. There is no need for guessing the meaning, or attempting to use a translation/paraphrase that "has its own agenda". I say this because when we looked at the other translations, and the actual word that Paul used regarding "naked" previously, we caught the New Living Translation in a significant error. As you might guess, I try to be as accurate as I can.

What does all this mean?

Does this mean you don't know the answer to my question, and by cutting and pasting all this "stuff', it is somehow going to make my question go away?


JLB

 

[By Grace]

What does all this mean?

Does this mean you don't know the answer to my question, and by cutting and pasting all this "stuff', it is somehow going to make my question go away? JLB

You mentioned "question" as a singular. You posted several questions:

1. Where is the written scripture in this formula for faith, the preaching of the Gospel by those who God has sent?
2. What scripture did Noah read to acquire the faith.?..
3. What scripture did Abraham read that caused him to go out to a place not knowing where he was going?

To which one do you refer?

Actually, I was answering this post:

OzSpen said: ↑
JLB,
Please tell me how, following your suggested methodology here, you are going to know the meaning of ἐκδημῆσαι and ἐνδημῆσαι. OZ

Then I elaborated about JBL' s statement :

JLB,

You asked, 'Show me how knowing the meaning of these Greek words produces faith'.

Would you please show me how anyone can read the NT in an English translation without someone having the knowledge of Greek grammar to be able to translate into English? I would not be able to read the English Bible to know what produces faith if it were not for those who engaged in the arduous task of learning Greek and translating from Greek to English.

You rightly stated, 'anything not from faith is sin. Romans 14:23'. How would you know that statement in the English Bible is correct without someone knowing how to translate from Greek to English?

Why is learning Greek grammar NOT from faith? Are you saying that my learning Greek conjugations and declensions so that I can translate Greek into English is not something in which a faithful Christian engages?

Therefore, what I did was to look at the Greek Lexicon's definition of the two words, then I cut-and-pasted a grammatical analysis. So it is not "stuff" Rather it is what Paul stated and it analyzes the manner in which he said it. As such it is irrefutable because that is the way Paul wrote it.

It is immaterial to me if it agrees or disagrees with your unspecified question. That is not because I do not care about your analysis; it is because I do not what your position is, exactly. Perhaps you could state it clearly for me, and then I could address that issue vis-à-vis with the actual words of Scripture Koine Greek, defined and parsed, OK?

 

[OzSpen]

Try this. The English grammar words are accurately describing the Greek in 2 Corinthians 5:8:


ἐκδημῆσαι (Root: δημος, LN: 85.20; verb, aorist, active, infinitive)
to leave, to be absent
Contained in: Infinitival Clause
Syntactic Force: Complementary infinitive

Words Modified by ἐκδημῆσαι
• verb-to-verb relation: The word ἐκδημῆσαι modifies εὐδοκοῦμεν (verb) in 2Co 5:8, word 4 (εὐδοκοῦμεν is outside of the current clausal unit).

Words That Modify ἐκδημῆσαι
• prepositional relation: The word ἐκδημῆσαι is modified by ἐκ (preposition) in 2Co 5:8, word 7 (ἐκ is outside of the current clausal unit).
• conjunctive relation: The word ἐκδημῆσαι is modified by καὶ (conjunction) in 2Co 5:8, word 10 (καὶ is outside of the current clausal unit).
ἐκ (Root: εκ, LN: 89.121; preposition)
from
Contained in: Prepositional Phrase
Syntactic Force: Preposition of separation

Lukaszewski, A. L., & Dubis, M. (2009). The Lexham Syntactic Greek New Testament: Expansions and Annotations (2 Co 5:8).


ἐνδημέω: to be in a place where one rightfully or normally belongs—‘to be at home, to fit in a place.’ ἐνδημῆσαι πρὸς τὸν κύριον ‘to be at home with the Lord’ 2 Cor 5:8.

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains. New York: United Bible Societies.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ἐνδημῆσαι (Root: δημος, LN: 85.20; verb, aorist, active, infinitive)
to be at home
Contained in: Infinitival Clause
Syntactic Force: Complementary infinitive

Words That Modify ἐνδημῆσαι
• conjunctive relation: The word ἐνδημῆσαι is modified by καὶ (conjunction) in 2Co 5:8, word 10 (καὶ is outside of the current clausal unit).
• prepositional relation: The word ἐνδημῆσαι is modified by πρὸς (preposition) in 2Co 5:8, word 12 (πρὸς is outside of the current clausal unit).
πρὸς (Root: προς, LN: 89.7; preposition)
with
Contained in: Prepositional Phrase
Syntactic Force: Preposition of direction

Words Modified by πρὸς
• prepositional relation: The word πρὸς modifies ἐνδημῆσαι (verb) in 2Co 5:8, word 11 (ἐνδημῆσαι is outside of the current clausal unit).
τὸν (Root: ο, LN: 92.24; article, accusative, singular, masculine)
the
Contained in: Prepositional Phrase
Syntactic Force: Attributive article

Words Modified by τὸν
• articular relation: The word τὸν modifies κύριον (noun) in 2Co 5:8, word 14 (κύριον is within the current clausal unit, after τὸν).


Lukaszewski, A. L., & Dubis, M. (2009). The Lexham Syntactic Greek New Testament: Expansions and Annotations (2 Co 5:8). Logos Bible Software.



ἐνδημέω: to be in a place where one rightfully or normally belongs—‘to be at home, to fit in a place.’ ἐνδημῆσαι πρὸς τὸν κύριον ‘to be at home with the Lord’ 2 Cor 5:8.

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains. New York: United Bible Societies.

With this post, you have the EXACT grammar of the words ion their context, and you also have the definitions from an advanced Lexicon, meaning in more depth than Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich Greek Lexicon

Therefore there is no need for quibbling. There is no need for guessing the meaning, or attempting to use a translation/paraphrase that "has its own agenda". I say this because when we looked at the other translations, and the actual word that Paul used regarding "naked" previously, we caught the New Living Translation in a significant error. As you might guess, I try to be as accurate as I can.

That is hardly the point I was trying to make.

 

[OzSpen]

Sorry Brother,

Faith is not found in the scripture....

JLB

Rom 10:17 (ESV) states, 'So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ'.

Is that verse in Scripture of not? Does it tell us how faith comes or not?

 

[follower]

.......
In these 11 verses, it is used 10 times. Therefore faith is REALLY important.

Yes, and of course to paraphrase a well known Scripture > without faith like a little child trusting his daddy, it is impossible to please Yhvh the Creator.
Yet, in Scripture, and in Hebrew Life, "faith" is not 'defined' so much as LIVED. Trying to define it has really taken away a lot from greek and western lives - almost as if , or actually as if, in reality, people who don't or can't or don't want to live a life of faith can instead 'define' it in a way that satisfies the conscience without requiring a total life change away from serving self to instead serving Yeshua HaMashiach.

 

[OzSpen]

Could the NT writers have simply come up a little short by not saying "Salvation" Faith comes by hearing the word about Christ?

Willie,

Are you suggesting that Scripture is inadequate for us to obtain a simple, plain understanding of how to obtain eternal salvation?

Or, could we be wanting the Scriptures to state things according to our own simplistic way of thinking? Do we want God to frame it according to our ways?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Joh 11:26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?" (ESV)

So verse 26 could mean at least a couple of things. It could be a reference to his return, that those alive at his coming who are believers will never see death. Or, it could simply be that the Greek shows something a little different--"shall never die" is better rendered, "shall not die forever," or "shall not die to the age." The emphasis is once again that death is temporary and that one will be resurrected.

Eminent NT exegete, the late Dr. Leon Morris, disagrees with you. He wrote of John 11:26,

Everyone who lives and believes on Jesus (one article ties the two closely together; life and faith mus be understood in the closest of connections) will never die. Jesus does not of course mean that the believer will not die physically. Lazarus was dead even then, and millions of Jesus' followers have died since. But He means that he will not die in the sense in which death has eternal significance. He will not die with reference to the age to come. He has eternal life, the life of the age to come. Jesus round this off with a challenge: "Believest thou this?" His words about faith and life are not a philosophical dictum to be critically argued. They are a saving truth to be received and acted on (Morris 1971:350-351).
​

This is the great truth of Christianity that those who die do not cease to exist. 'Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord' (2 Cor 5:8 ESV). The closer I get to that time, the more I long for the Lord's actual presence. It's a wonderful hope for me as an evangelical Christian believer.

Oz

Works consulted
Morris, L 1971. The Gospel According to John (The New International Commentary on the New Testament). Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

 

[By Grace]

That is hardly the point I was trying to make.

Since I erred in that department, and you were not seeking a lexicon definition, nor a grammatical analysis, please clarify what is the point that you were trying to make.

 

[OzSpen]

Since I erred in that department, and you were not seeking a lexicon definition, nor a grammatical analysis, please clarify what is the point that you were trying to make.

By Grace,

JLB wrote at #149:

You are better at studying yourself, and relying on what the scriptures really do say, than letting the commentary dictate to you what other men, who may or may not have the Holy Spirit believe.

The Holy Spirit will lead us and guide us into all Truth.

By saying, All Truth, we are taught that one part of the truth may not necessarily be All Truth.

I see in part, but "we" have the mind of Christ.​

I responded (OzSpen #160): 'Please tell me how, following your suggested methodology here, you are going to know the meaning of ἐκδημῆσαι and ἐνδημῆσαι'.

My point was inferred rather than directly stated: JLB is 'relying on what the scriptures really do say' but how are you going to know that in English without somebody understanding the meaning of the Greek verbals, ἐκδημῆσαι and ἐνδημῆσαι, that lead to an English translation of 2 Cor 5:8 (ESV).

The teaching promoted was that 'The Holy Spirit will lead us and guide us into all Truth', but how does that work when the Greek text of the NT needs to be translated for English speaking people to understand it?

There seemed to be a lack of awareness of this kind of emphasis.

Just some thoughts from a fellow traveller.

Oz

 

[Free]

Free,

Because of my time limitations, I will address only your first paragraph and 'sleep' referring not to unbelievers in Scripture.

Let Us Reason ministries agrees with you in your view that 'sleep' is not used of unbelievers:

So, let's look at the word sleep, because that's what's crucial here. What does sleep mean? The Bible uses this term when speaking of death in that the physical body, a dead body, looks very similar in this state. It's always referring to the physical body, not the soul. It is the appearance of the body that is sleeping, no one is able to see the spirit . It is also a term used exclusively for believers. The term sleeping, in reference to death, is not used for unbelievers. I find that to be crucial in understanding what the Bible is trying to portray to us when it says that the dead in Christ are sleeping (see 'Soul Sleep').​

I do not have the time to check out the number of times 'sleep' is referred to death in Scripture and if there is any mention of 'sleep' of unbelievers at death. The important issue is: Where will the unbelievers be one second after their last breath?

We have some evidence from Scripture that

1. Unbelievers, at death, are sent in the Intermediate State to what some have called a temporary holding place (Hades). There they wait for their final resurrection, judgment, and eternal destiny. Although there are divergent views, this seems to be taught in Luke 16:22-23 (ESV) where a rich unbelieving man at death immediately experiences torment.
2. Then we get an ultimate picture of what will eventually happen. In Revelation 20:11-15 (ESV) there is a description of the unbelieving dead, resurrected and then facing the great white throne judgment. Then they are cast into the lake of fire.
3. So, at death, unbelievers are not sent to the lake of fire, but to a temporary realm of punishment - Hades. Unbelievers eventually will be sent to the lake of fire after the great white throne judgment. At death, their experience in Hades is unpleasant. It is similar to that experienced by the rich man who cried out, “I am in anguish in this flame” (Luke 16:24 ESV).

Appealing to Luke 16 is tenuous, at best. And you didn't address my point: "I am well aware that "sleep" is a metaphor for death. The significance is that it is used only of believers, because they will be raised to new life at a later time. So it simply cannot refer to just the appearance of one who is dead, as this would pertain to the unbeliever as well."

Eminent NT exegete, the late Dr. Leon Morris, disagrees with you. He wrote of John 11:26,

Everyone who lives and believes on Jesus (one article ties the two closely together; life and faith mus be understood in the closest of connections) will never die. Jesus does not of course mean that the believer will not die physically. Lazarus was dead even then, and millions of Jesus' followers have died since. But He means that he will not die in the sense in which death has eternal significance. He will not die with reference to the age to come. He has eternal life, the life of the age to come. Jesus round this off with a challenge: "Believest thou this?" His words about faith and life are not a philosophical dictum to be critically argued. They are a saving truth to be received and acted on (Morris 1971:350-351).
​

This is the great truth of Christianity that those who die do not cease to exist. 'Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord' (2 Cor 5:8 ESV). The closer I get to that time, the more I long for the Lord's actual presence. It's a wonderful hope for me as an evangelical Christian believer.

Oz

Works consulted
Morris, L 1971. The Gospel According to John (The New International Commentary on the New Testament). Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

And I'm quite certain I could find theologians who agree with me, which leaves us nowhere. I still maintain that you have a contradiction with these two statements: "Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live," and "everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die." According to your position, this is a contradiction. That is what you need to address.

And again, Paul is not making a statement of the way things are in 2 Cor 5:8, he is making a statement of what he would prefer. To believe that he is meaning that once a believer dies their soul goes immediately to be with the Lord, is to read something into the text that isn't there.

 

[rjohnson741]

When we talk about Hell, what we are talking about it the wrath of God. There can be no Love without Wrath. Hell is the ultimate place where Gods justice is carried out. Some will say that Hell is a place for those who want to be there. Others will say that Hell is a place for those who suppress the truth of God, but either way Justice is served in Hell.

The late Hunter Thompson was once asked if he believed in God. He said he did and that He and God where both interested in the same thing; JUSTICE. That's what Hell is; justice. We cannot say that about Heaven. Heaven is not a place of Justice because not one in Heaven deserves to be there.

If God is a God of love, wrath, justice, and mercy, then hell or more specifically the lake of fire must be a manifestation or expression of God's love, wrath, justice and mercy.