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Do you have demons?

Are demons real

  • Yes

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Maybe

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    14
I will cut off the soul that looks back to demons (pythones) and soothsayers to go a whoring after them.Leviticus 20: 6.
Swedenborg "Spiritual 'Diary"
The worst demons, or furies, are shut up in hell, and they cannot be released from there without the human race being destroyed.
No one can possibly conceive how harmful that gang is that is kept bound up in hell. Some of them who had been slightly loosed, attacked me so hard, and so very cunningly and sharply, that I would never have been able to believe such poisons could ever exist. This is why that gang is kept bound up in such a way that they cannot as much as open their mouth to, much less attack, anyone except the very worst kind for whom there is no more hope, or when someone aroused with murderous hatred is committing criminal acts. Unless this hellish gang were held in bonds almost like chains by God the Messiah, the human race would perish.


Harry :fadein:
 
Swedenborg's Heaven and Hell
230. It must be known, however, that the angels have no power whatever of themselves, but that all their power is from the Lord; and that they are powers only so far as they acknowledge this. Whoever among them believes that he has power of himself instantly becomes so weak as not to be able to resist even a sxngle evil spirit. For this reason angels ascribe no merit whatever to themselves, and are averse to all praise and glory on account of any thing they do, ascribing it to the Lord.

Harry :fadein:
 
Darrell dunn said:
I wonder if most people have any idea, who are what demon activity is.

A christian cannot be possessed but they can have a demon in the flesh.
This is called strong holds in scripture 2 Corin.10:4, And the world calls it habits, Smoking is one it is called Addition.
This is a demon.

As Adam's descendant we continue to name things, as Adam was told to.

Demon activity, is anything that is trying to destroy God's creation.

Any sickness, colds, flu, Hiv.

If this frightens you, You really need to get to know God.

In the Greek the words healed and saved mean the same thing.

If you are saved then get passionate about touching God and get healed.
Heb.11: 6 for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that
DILIGENTLY seek him.

Some of you don't know what "Posession" is.

Charismatic Demonology
By Sosthenes

An overemphasis has been placed on Demonism through Charismatic Theology. They say that the Christian can be demon possessed even though we have a greater spirit in us and that we are sealed according to these scriptures:

You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world."-1 John 4:4

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"-Ephesians 1:13

If the devil can break the seal and indwell you then the Devil is stronger than God (which is false) and can indwell the bodies of believers because they say that the body isn’t sealed because if God sealed our bodies then it wouldn’t be subject to sin and death. They claim that the devil can build strongholds in our bodies because our bodies are just containers and our bodies are not the real “usâ€Â. The reality is we’re subject to the law of sin and death based on the curse of God because of our sin.

Where is the scripture that says our bodies aren't the real us? Where does scripture say that the seal only concerns salvation? Where does scripture say that our bodies are just containers?

"For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal (body) must put on immortality."-I Cor. 15:53 The reason the Jews buried their bones was a belief and testimony that God would raise their bodies one day. The reason atheists have their bodies cremated is to make it harder for God to raise them for the day of judgment.

"What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."-I Cor. 6:20

I Cor. 6:20 calls your 'body' and 'spirit' "God's" property. It also says that we're not our own but that we are God's and that we should glorify God in our Body.

A seal is Strong's #4972 which means to stamp for security or preservation. We're stamped making us God's property. God did not stamp us for healing because the word comes from 4973 which means that we're sealed from "Misappropriation" which would be demon possession because it means 'fenced in'. The law of sin and death has not been repealed so we will get sick and die.

John 5:7 The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me.
John 5:8 Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.
John 5:9 And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.

If we were demon possessed because of sickness then what ability does the Paralytic man have in and of himself to take up his bed and walk? None. Right? He got up because God gave him the ability. Well the word of God tells us to live right and when God tells us to live right then we have the ability to live right ; demon or no demon.

It would be wrong for me to blame demons on my child not learning instead of teaching him how to pass subjects in school and it is time people take responsibility for their lives instead of hurting themselves and others because they want to give too much credit to demons. When we focus on Satan instead of Jesus then I feel that is wrong. Rebuking demons instead of being accountable, being responsible, parenting our children and being responsible adults is to hide from our responsibility and to ignore the sins of our flesh.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, *All* power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. So when the Bible tells us to live right then God gives you the power to obey.

"Some of the names given by these supposed demons which are more popular are lust, hatred, liar gluttony, envy, fear, and jealousy. These things are classified in Galatians 5:19-21 as the works of the flesh. We're told to 'put off all these' (Colossians 3:8), or by the Spirit to "mortify the deeds of the body" (Romans 8:13; 6:3-14). Not once are we commanded to have them cast out."-Pastor Chuck

I disagree that anger, lust, depression or rebellion are all caused by demons because they are works of the flesh. Demons are more interested in high oil prices, inflation, world leaders than you and me. What you might have is a Buck Private demon bothering you while the main demons are more concerned with Billy Graham.

“Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but have power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well.â€Â-I Cor. 7:37

The word for “Power†is “Exousiaâ€Â. Exousia is Strong’s # 1849 which means,â€Âforce, capacity, competency, freedom, mastery, magistrate, superhuman, potentate, authority, jurisdiction, liberty, power, right, or strength.†Paul is saying that Christians have authority over their own will so the idea that the demons made me do it is totally false because you have the royal right over your own will.

“Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power (Dunamous, Strong’s # 1411) and authority (Exousia, Strong’s # 1849 ) over all devils, and to cure diseases.â€Â-Luke 9:1 The fact is that the word “authority†in Luke 9:1 that Jesus gave His disciples over all devils is the same authority (Exousia) that you have over your own will in I Cor. 7:37 (named 'power').

The truth is that I can control my own emotions like anger and I can control it by saying,'no' to myself and by me being responsible for my own actions, I do not have to blame demons because I have power over my own will.

If Christians do not have “Exousia†over their own will then neither do Charismatics have “Exousia†over demons, neither do Charismatics have “Exousia†to rebuke Satan and neither would Charismatics have “Exoia†to cast out demons if Christians don’t have “Exousia†over their own will.

If you believe that Christians can be demon posessed then you bought a lie.
 
Sothenes,

What you offer 'sounds' good, but the question then arises: WHO were these words being spoken to? Anyone reading them and 'saying' to themselves that they are indeed Christians? Or those that truly seek the Lord and His will and allow Christ to dwell within them?

At this point, one would need define 'Christian'. For we have words that offer that upon judgement there WILL be those that step to Christ and offer: "Look at all the wondrous things we have done in YOUR name". His answer to these: "Go away from me, for I know not WHO you are".

So, with this in mind, let me ask you this: These that are referred to in these passages, are these 'able' to be possessed by demons? And, if so, are NOT THESE those that simply 'claim' Christ as their Savior without any understanding of Him whatsoever. Maybe in their minds, but their hearts being 'FAR' from Him?

Often times I witness that there is MUCH scripture quoted without the 'understanding' of 'WHO' is being offered such. In other words, there are many that would try and teach others that EVERYTHING in the Word refers to EVERYONE that reads it. FALSE. Not even close to the 'truth'.

MOST of what is written in the Word is 'conditional'. Regardless of what many think or teach. We are told specifically what we MUST do in order for the words to pertain to US. Simply 'stating' that Christ is ones Savior IS NOT ALL IT TAKES. There are many many many that have claimed this only to use this statement to gain the trust of those that were 'truly' seeking the truth in order to 'lead them astray'.

So, what about these. What about the 'wolves' in sheeps clothing? Are these able to be possessed by demons?

We know that Satan is only able to influence people individually and only ONE at a time. So, the old adage: 'the devil made me do it', is nothing short of pure vanity. Satan doesn't have time to deal with the miniscule sins that each of us commit each day. He is forced to concentrate HIS efforts on the individuals that MATTER MOST. So, this leaves his demons. They are obviously NUMEROUS for we KNOW that Jesus cast SEVEN, say it again SEVEN out of Mary. This indicates to me that there are PLENTY to go around.
 
Who are Christians?

Jesus said,â€ÂVerily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.â€Â-John 5:24

The verse does not say,’might have’ or ‘could have’. It says that if we believe, we ‘hath’ everlasting life. There are no ‘if’ statements in John 5:24 and this verse is not conditional. Once we believe we are sealed with the spirit (Ephesians 1:13) making us God’s property because I Corinthians 6:20 says we are not our own but we are bought with a price making us God’s possession to possess. No demon can snatch us out of God’s hands because the Father is greater than all (John 10:28) “My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.â€Â-John 10:28

You are saying that we can believe in him and yet have our hearts be far from him. The truth is that I believe works are a result of salvation and not a cause of salvation which I can back up from the Greek. The second point is that “believe†in John 3:16 is the same word “commit†in John 2:24. We seem to forget that God told Moses,â€ÂI will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.†(Romans 9:15) so it doesn’t matter if we don’t have complete understanding because “..it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.†(Romans 9:16). You have to remember that if salvation is based upon our hearts being right then we have sinned and we have all fallen short of the glory of God and no one is worthy of salvation (Romans 3:23) apart from Jesus. It isn’t Jesus plus partial works that equal salvation because it is “not of yourselves†(Ephesians 2:8) that is the gift of God.

Simply stating Jesus is our saviour is the start of all it takes because Romans 10:13 says,â€ÂFor whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.†What about the demons because they believe (James 2:19)? The demons don’t “commit†in Jesus through the demon’s belief but true belief is translated “commit†in John 2:24. Jesus didn’t die for demons to repent.

Let us look at Matthew 7:21 which you quoted. Verse 22 says they will give their works as an answer to why they should be accepted but the truth is that it isn't Jesus plus our works that we are saved (Ephesians 2:8-9) because the gift of God is 'not of yourselves' but the reason we are saved is all based upon the shed blood which paid our randsom to God (Hebrews 9:14). Jesus’ answer is that He never knew them but the quotation is in reference to God’s enemies (Psalm 6:8 and Psalm 6:10) whom are Christians whom speak against Him (Psalm 71:10) which are the teachers whom suggest that His children can be demon possessed. Perhaps the teachers who teach these lies are demon possessed because they don’t know Him or His word but profess these charismatic works of casting out demons, prophecy and many wonderful works of themselves. That is characteristic of iniquity because they don’t know Him. They may be in the Church system but perhaps they aren't really praying to Him because they don't believe but these teachers just see you as a way of making money.

I'm going to quote one of my pastors:

"What I'm saying is that we are the results of what he (Jesus) paid to God, and that was wages. DEATH. We were the ones in mind, I think that it should be looked at by saying, He died for God(to satisfy His wrath), by dying instead of us, He died for us.Hebrews 9:14 (KJV)
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, (why did he offer Himself to God) purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? (purge our conscience is a result)1 Cor. 7:23 (ESV)
You were bought with a price; DYING FOR GOD INITIALLY MEANT DYING FOR US, BUT ULTIMATELY GOD IS THE ONE THAT WANTS THE RELATIONSHIP AND HE MOVE HEAVEN AND EARTH TO HAVE THAT DONE. Ro. 5:8 means He was substituted for instead us."
 
Sothenes said:
Who are Christians?

Jesus said,â€ÂVerily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.â€Â-John 5:24

The verse does not say,’might have’ or ‘could have’. It says that if we believe, we ‘hath’ everlasting life. There are no ‘if’ statements in John 5:24 and this verse is not conditional. Once we believe we are sealed with the spirit (Ephesians 1:13) making us God’s property because I Corinthians 6:20 says we are not our own but we are bought with a price making us God’s possession to possess. No demon can snatch us out of God’s hands because the Father is greater than all (John 10:28) “My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.â€Â-John 10:28

You are saying that we can believe in him and yet have our hearts be far from him. The truth is that I believe works are a result of salvation and not a cause of salvation which I can back up from the Greek. The second point is that “believe†in John 3:16 is the same word “commit†in John 2:24. We seem to forget that God told Moses,â€ÂI will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.†(Romans 9:15) so it doesn’t matter if we don’t have complete understanding because “..it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.†(Romans 9:16). You have to remember that if salvation is based upon our hearts being right then we have sinned and we have all fallen short of the glory of God and no one is worthy of salvation (Romans 3:23) apart from Jesus. Now that just don't make NO SENSE. It's not a matter of having a 'perfect record' for that IS IMPOSSIBLE. But it IS a matter of your heart being 'right' for without your heart being right it would be impossible to accept and follow Christ. Just as was explained to many that followed Him. And once upon explalining this, many walked with Him no more. t isn’t Jesus plus partial works that equal salvation because it is “not of yourselves†(Ephesians 2:8) that is the gift of God.

Now, you have completely ignored what I offered except to offer your OSAS belief. Why do you evade the issue that I offered? I guess because you desire NOT to face this truth: Faith without works is DEAD. That means: there IS NO FAITH WITHOUT WORKS. So your entire premise is based on picking and choosing scripture to 'please yourself'. Taking it out of context in order to 'build' something that simply doesn't exist.

Simply stating Jesus is our saviour is the start of all it takes because Romans 10:13 says,â€ÂFor whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.†What about the demons because they believe (James 2:19)? The demons don’t “commit†in Jesus through the demon’s belief but true belief is translated “commit†in John 2:24. Jesus didn’t die for demons to repent.

Being the 'start' of something doesn't 'make' it ANYTHING. If I pick up a brush and dip it into paint, there is NO picture until I'm 'finished' with what I started. We are COMMANDED to run the race like we mean to WIN it. What you offer is that all I have to do is 'sign up' for it and I 'still' get the trophy. Rediculous.

Let us look at Matthew 7:21 which you quoted. Verse 22 says they will give their works as an answer to why they should be accepted but the truth is that it isn't Jesus plus our works that we are saved (Ephesians 2:8-9) because the gift of God is 'not of yourselves' but the reason we are saved is all based upon the shed blood which paid our randsom to God (Hebrews 9:14). Agreed. The gift is OFFERED FREELY. Jesus’ answer is that He never knew them but the quotation is in reference to God’s enemies (Psalm 6:8 and Psalm 6:10) whom are Christians whom speak against Him (Psalm 71:10) which are the teachers whom suggest that His children can be demon possessed. What? Perhaps the teachers who teach these lies are demon possessed because they don’t know Him or His word but profess these charismatic works of casting out demons, prophecy and many wonderful works of themselves. That is characteristic of iniquity because they don’t know Him. They may be in the Church system but perhaps they aren't really praying to Him because they don't believe but these teachers just see you as a way of making money.

Boy, this is 'out there' my friend. It states clearly WHO these people are. These are people that 'profess' to be Christians, but Christ doesn't EVEN KNOW them. These are those that try and 'show others' how 'good' they are, but in their hearts what they do is FOR THEMSELVES and NOT for their neihbors. These are those that FEEL COMPELED to let others know their 'good works'. These are those that believe they are capable of judging others based on whether they are of the 'same' denomination or not. These are those that 'talk' about Christ but know neither the Father OR the Son.

I am really confused as to the point you were trying to make with this. I guess you are unwilling to admit that I had a point and choose instead to take it to the 'outer-limits'.
I'm going to quote one of my pastors:

"What I'm saying is that we are the results of what he (Jesus) paid to God, and that was wages. DEATH. We were the ones in mind, I think that it should be looked at by saying, He died for God(to satisfy His wrath), by dying instead of us, He died for us.Hebrews 9:14 (KJV)
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, (why did he offer Himself to God) purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? (purge our conscience is a result)1 Cor. 7:23 (ESV)
You were bought with a price; DYING FOR GOD INITIALLY MEANT DYING FOR US, BUT ULTIMATELY GOD IS THE ONE THAT WANTS THE RELATIONSHIP AND HE MOVE HEAVEN AND EARTH TO HAVE THAT DONE. Ro. 5:8 means He was substituted for instead us."

Let me ask you this: Are you a follower of UR? Be honest now, God IS listening.
 
Imagican said:
Let me ask you this: Are you a follower of UR? Be honest now, God IS listening.

I don't know the number but there will be people in Hell who have rejected Jesus Christ with no chance of escape. I'm not a Christian Universalist and I find the doctrine of Universalism offensive to the Christian faith.

I witness to plenty of people who would rather live their sinful lives than believe in Jesus Christ.
 
Revelation 9:20-21
Verse 20. "And the rest of the men, who were not killed by these plagues," signifies those of the Protestant Church who are not so spiritually dead from visionary reasonings, and from the love of self, the
pride of their own intelligence, and from lusts, thence as those before mentioned, and yet make faith alone the head of their religion. "Yet repented not of the evil works of their hands." This signifies that neither did they shun the things that are of their proprium, which are evils of every kind, as sins. "That they should not adore demons." This signifies that they are in the evils of their concupiscences, and make one with their like in hell. "And idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and wood," signifies that they are in worship from mere falsities. "Which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk." This signifies, in which there is nothing of spiritual and truly rational life.

Verse 21. "Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their enchantments, nor of their whoredoms, nor of their thefts," signifies that the heresy of faith alone induces on their hearts stupidity, tergiversation, and hardness, so that they do not think anything of the precepts of the Decalogue, nor indeed of any sin that it ought to be shunned because it is in favor of the devil and against God.

They should not adore demons. This signifies that they are in the evils of their lusts, and make one with their like in hell. By "demons" are signified the lusts of evil springing from the love of the world; the reason is, because in hell they are called demons who are in those lusts; and men also, who are in the same, become demons after death. There is also a conjunction between them and such men; for every man is conjoined with spirits as to his affections, even so that they make a one; from which it is evident, that to "adore" demons, is to sacrifice to those lusts from the love of them. Therefore he who invokes faith alone, as the head of his religion, or as his idol, remains in evil, by reason of his not searching out any evil in himself which he calls a sin, and consequently is not desirous of removing it by repentance; and as every evil is composed of lusts, being nothing but a bundle of lusts, it follows, that he who does not search out any evil in himself, and shun it as a sin against God, which can only be done by repentance, becomes a demon after death.

Nothing but such lusts are signified by "demons" in the following passages:
They sacrifice to demons, not to God (Leviticus 32:17).
The sons of Israel shall no longer sacrifice to demons, after which they have committed whoredom (Leviticus 17:7; Psalm 106:37).
The Ziim shall meet with the Ijim, and the demon of the woods shall meet with his companion (Isaiah 34:14).
The Ziim shall lie there, and their houses shall be full of Ochim, and the daughters of the owl shall dwell there, and the demons of the woods shall dance there (Isaiah 13:21).

By "Ziim," "Ijim," "Ochim," "the daughters of the owl," are signified various lusts; "wood demons" are such lusts as appertain to priapuses and satyrs:
Babylon is become the habitation of demons, and the hold of every unclean spirit (Revelation 18:2).

The demons, which the Lord cast out, were such lusts, when they lived in the world (concerning which see Matthew 8:16-28; Matthew 9:32-33; Matthew 10:8; Matthew 12:22; Matthew 15:22; Mark 1:32-34; Luke 4:33-41; Luke 8:2-40; Luke 9:1-49; Luke 13:32).

"Ziim," "Ijim," "Ochim," names of demons in hell.

Harry :fadein:
 
SpiritualSon said:
Revelation 9:20-21
Verse 20. "And the rest of the men, who were not killed by these plagues," signifies those of the Protestant Church who are not so spiritually dead from visionary reasonings, and from the love of self, the
pride of their own intelligence, and from lusts, thence as those before mentioned, and yet make faith alone the head of their religion. "Yet repented not of the evil works of their hands." This signifies that neither did they shun the things that are of their proprium, which are evils of every kind, as sins. "That they should not adore demons." This signifies that they are in the evils of their concupiscences, and make one with their like in hell. "And idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and wood," signifies that they are in worship from mere falsities. "Which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk." This signifies, in which there is nothing of spiritual and truly rational life.

This is just spam to me.
 
Imagican said:
Sothenes said:
Who are Christians?

Jesus said,â€ÂVerily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.â€Â-John 5:24

The verse does not say,’might have’ or ‘could have’. It says that if we believe, we ‘hath’ everlasting life. There are no ‘if’ statements in John 5:24 and this verse is not conditional. Once we believe we are sealed with the spirit (Ephesians 1:13) making us God’s property because I Corinthians 6:20 says we are not our own but we are bought with a price making us God’s possession to possess. No demon can snatch us out of God’s hands because the Father is greater than all (John 10:28) “My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.â€Â-John 10:28

Now that just don't make NO SENSE. It's not a matter of having a 'perfect record' for that IS IMPOSSIBLE. But it IS a matter of your heart being 'right' for without your heart being right it would be impossible to accept and follow Christ. Just as was explained to many that followed Him. And once upon explalining this, many walked with Him no more.

"Flesh" is Sarx and it is translated "sinful nature" in the NIV. You can't be perfect because of your sinful naure. "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"-Romans 3:10

[quote:41c1c]Faith without works is DEAD. That means: there IS NO FAITH WITHOUT WORKS. So your entire premise is based on picking and choosing scripture to 'please yourself'. Taking it out of context in order to 'build' something that simply doesn't exist.
[/quote:41c1c]

The Bible nowhere describes faith coming from works. The Bible says that faith comes from hearing the word of God (Romans 10:17) The Bible does say,"..to him that worketh NOT, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."-Romans 4:5

You seem to think that faith works through works but you ignore the scripture which says that faith works through love:

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

James acknowledges that "Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness:"-James 2:23 James is talking about showing his faith before men because James says,"shew me thy faith" (James 2:18) and the fact is that no one can see faith because John 3:8 says faith is like the wind and you can't tell where it comes or where it goes.

Jhn 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Believing is a work so if you want to believe in works then fine but it is from believing that we work the works of God. simply means that he is trying to shew faith before men so that they are justified before men.

"Seest thou how faith wrought with works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was *fulfilled* which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God."-James 2:23

"23. Was fulfilled... Not was confirmed, which the word does not mean either in New-Testament or in classical usage, but was actually and fully realized. James here uses the formula which in the Old Testament is employed of the realizing of a former utterance. See 1 Kings ii.27:2 Chron. xxxvi. 22 (Sept.)."-Vincent's Word Studies In The New Testament, p. 745, Vol. I

It is used in proclamation of a divine fact or to execute that belief. Genesis 22 is a fulfillment of Genesis 15. James is not faith plus works. James is actualizing or realizing that faith or realizing of a former utterance.

The Kenneth Wuest translation reads as such:

"Was not our father Abraham vindicated by works [justified as to his claim to a living faith] in that he offered his son Isaac on the altar of sacrifice? You see that the aforementioned faith was co-operating and working with his works [and thereby was responsible for their production], and by his works was this faith brought to completion in a well-rounded whole. And the scripture was actually and fully realized [brought into operation] which said, And Abraham believed God, and it [his act of faith] was put to his account for righteousness. And a friend of God he was called. You see that by works a man is justified and not by faith alone. Now, similarly, was not Rahab the prostitute also vindicated [justified as to her possession of a living faith] in that she entertained as guests the messengers and thrust them forth by means of a different way [from that by which they entered the city]? For even as the body apart from breath is dead, so also the aforementioned faith apart from works is dead."-James chapter 2

A living faith does not have to produce works to prove itself unless you have to prove it before men. A dead faith will seem to be the same as a living faith that isn't activated and the fact that we can call Abraham justified from Genesis 15 and not seeing Abraham acting on the faith until Genesis 22. By Paul's account Abraham's faith was accounted to Him as righteousness before God in Genesis 15. According to James, Abraham did believe God and it was counted to Abraham as righteousness but before men Abraham wasn't proved righteous before men until Genesis 22. There are many people who believe God and don't act on the gospel right away but they are just as saved as Abraham was until Abraham showed his faith before men to be justified before men.
 
guess I was wrong. it was the Catholic baggage that was deleted.

MEC
 
Mec
Thanks, Itwill take me a little bit to read through all the post, so hopefully we can kick this back in gear this evening....
 
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