The Unbeliever
Member
That's going to depend on who you count as a Christian and what counts as being culpable for another person's death.
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Tired of all the political strife and infighting?
Find out how Christians are supposed to act in the following study
https://christianforums.net/threads/charismatic-bible-studies-1-peter-2-11-17.109823/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Do you make ubelievers angry?
- Thread starter Christ_empowered
- Start date
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Aardverk
Guest
No, that is not how I judge a religion. I do accept your statement.
Looking back, I obviously failed to make the reason for my comment clear. I was trying to illustrate the folly/danger of acting upon convictions of what someone THINKS God wants them to do. I didn't make that point very well - sorry.
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Aardverk
Guest
:halo Oh Yes! I didn't think of that ;)
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Aardverk
Guest
Yes Jethro. I do know this and I do agree with you. I apologize for my sloppy phrasing. I failed to make it clear that I was trying (not very well) to illustrate the danger of acting on convictions. As we are all painfully aware, that has led to slaughter in the past and, I believe, much bigotry and injustice now.
If we consider some less prominent Christian denominations we will still find people being tortured and murdered in the name of Christ. The Kenyan and Nigerian 'witch' hunts for example. Those particular Christians consider that 'Western' Christians are failing in their duty. They are even sending 'missionaries' out into the rest of the world to preach the gospel! :gah
As I have pointed out many times, there are many different flavors of Christian. Some I find delightful and some extremely distasteful. My guess is that you do too. For that reason alone, I suggest that you should think very carefully about your constant message of 'sin guilt'. Believe whatever you wish but allow others to interpret things themselves - you may not be right Jethro and the more you thump that particular table, the more damage you do.
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Aardverk
Guest
Am I sure? No, of course not. Eleven million is the oft quoted figure for that bloody part of European history but history is not an exact 'science'.
History books, and I regard the Bible as a history book, are always a compilation of facts, mistakes and factoids. If you read in detail the history of almost any one well known historical character you will find many different versions - making it almost impossible to know the truth. The 11,000,000 is a guess passed on from historian to historian - we simply don't know the truth.
Off at a tangent but Hitler was of course a Christian. In his speeches he asked people, 'in the name of Christ' to do their duty etc. It is only in fairly recent years that the myth that he was not a Christian has been propagated - for understandable reasons. You only need to look at the obituary from Franco to see how highly he was regarded, by some, as a Christian.
Catholics are Christians too. There is STILL Catholic/Protestant conflict. Only last month there was yet another sectarian murder in Ireland.
African Christians are still torturing and mudering 'witches' - many of them innocent children. They do it 'in the name of Christ' - so yes, some Christians are still 'blood thirsty, Bible thumping killers'.
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Aardverk
Guest
If you try to count the number of people killed by God in the Bible, it runs into many more and for some rather bizarre and patently unfair reasons. Calling someone 'baldy' for example
Jethro Bodine
Member
Yes Jethro. I do know this and I do agree with you. I apologize for my sloppy phrasing. I failed to make it clear that I was trying (not very well) to illustrate the danger of acting on convictions. As we are all painfully aware, that has led to slaughter in the past and, I believe, much bigotry and injustice now.
If we consider some less prominent Christian denominations we will still find people being tortured and murdered in the name of Christ. The Kenyan and Nigerian 'witch' hunts for example. Those particular Christians consider that 'Western' Christians are failing in their duty. They are even sending 'missionaries' out into the rest of the world to preach the gospel! :gah
As I have pointed out many times, there are many different flavors of Christian. Some I find delightful and some extremely distasteful. My guess is that you do too. For that reason alone, I suggest that you should think very carefully about your constant message of 'sin guilt'. Believe whatever you wish but allow others to interpret things themselves - you may not be right Jethro and the more you thump that particular table, the more damage you do.
This is a Christian forum. What are you doing here Arty? Spare yourself the anguish you're suffering and move on, because all you're going to find here is lots of Bible thumping about the Bible, sin, and redemption. And it's not allowed that you be here to destroy Biblical Christianity. And carving the Bible up into only the sweet things God has to say is in fact destroying Biblical Christianity. You don't belong here.
Don't come into a Christian forum and warn me about doing damage with the Christian message, okay? We are Christians talking about Christian things...ALL of the Christian things that are in the Bible. If you don't like that don't tell me not to do that in a Christian forum.
Jethro Bodine
Member
So, how is it, that if there is a God, man does evil as a matter of nature, but if there is no God man does not do evil as a matter of nature?
Why do some people get mad because you say you believe that all men are evil by nature? Pride? That's the only answer I can think of...really.
Davies
Member
If you try to count the number of people killed by God in the Bible, it runs into many more and for some rather bizarre and patently unfair reasons. Calling someone 'baldy' for example
Hi Aardverk,
The truth is that God has taken every life at his appointed time, and fairly. I do think of those who have died at the hands of evil men/women, but that does not negate the righteousness of God. Each man will be judged according to what he has done, and hoping beyond the foolishness of man, I pray that we will repent and put our trust in Jesus so we may stand in His righteousness, and not our own.
- Davies
Jethro Bodine
Member
Yes, and let it be a lesson to you all, lol.If you try to count the number of people killed by God in the Bible, it runs into many more and for some rather bizarre and patently unfair reasons. Calling someone 'baldy' for example
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Aardverk
Guest
I am here to converse. What are you here for? (Arty???)
No, there is not much Bible thumping, mainly it is a lot of interesting ideas and much common sense.
Now you give me far too much credit - aw shucks
It is not allowed to attack Christianity nor to promote other religions - and I never have done Jethro or I would have been banned. I have challenged some questionable pronouncements that various members have posted; that is allowed otherwise you would never see the interesting Christian -v- Christian debates that we certainly do see.
I suppose you could call it selective quoting BUT that is what EVERY other person does, including Jethro Bodine.
Is that your opinion or the opinion of the majority? Put that proposal to the vote. If I lose, I will depart quietly. Will you risk the same?
You can play Jesus and I will play Barabus
Until the rules are changed to gag me personally, we all have equal right to interpret scripture. Many people disagree with you Jethro. Please do not think that you have universal support or even wide support.
No Jethro, the majority may well be Christian but by no means all. It is not an exclusively Christian site. As for discussing 'Christian things', I only post in 'General Talk'. I never try to impose my interpretation of the Bible on anyone. It has taken a couple of years for people to know even roughly where I stand on the Bible etc - hardly the actions of someone out to corrupt you all :halo
If someone can not challenge and ask questions, how can they learn? Are we to suffer the same fate as Copernicus, Bruno and Galileo for pointing out facts that you may find difficult to understand?
Learn from History. Don't keep making the same mistakes.
Jethro Bodine
Member
It's more than obvious you are here to teach against Biblical Christianity. That is not allowed.
Just a reminder...do not tell me to change the Christian message of sin and redemption because it offends you. If you want to challenge what I say use the Bible to do that. That's how it's done around here. This is a Christian forum. If you don't want to be seen as an enemy of the gospel, from here on out, use the Bible to prove your point and counter ours.
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Aardverk
Guest
I'm not teaching anybody anything except a bit of history now and again to those who are unaware of the 'facts' - and the factoids.
I've done that many times Jethro. Unfortunately, you disregard the quotes I give you by telling me that I am interpreting them incorrectly. :halo I'm afraid I don't bow to your 'superior' interpretation. I can read as well as anyone and 'interpret' better than most :yes
Here's an idea - you do things your way and I'll do things mine. ;)
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Aardverk
Guest
Hello Davies
I really wish I could agree but most of us have an instinctive feeling for right and wrong and for justice. Maybe this is part of us being 'made in the image of God'. Those who do not have that instinct are forced by the laws, of just about every country, to act appropriately.
It is difficult therefore to accept that it is 'fair' to punish the family of a sinner or his servants or his townsfolk. I'm sure you don't need me to point out the many 'unfair' punishments meted out by God - according to the Bible.
Don't you think it likely that something has gone wrong in the relating of those stories rather than there being an unjust God? That is one of the factors which prevent me accepting the Bible as absolutely true. I don't want my God to be capricious, petty or unfair, I want Him to be consistent and just. Rather like you and me ;)
-Aardverk
Davies
Member
Good morning Aardverk,
Based on our understanding of the Bible, it's easy to see why someone would not believe or even become angry. The title of the thread, "Do you make unbelievers angry?," is a loaded question. If you look to Jesus, the perfect One, who never sinned; he made people so mad that they eventually accused Him of the truth, and then the Romans charged Him and executed Him unjustly. When it comes to relating to the stories of the Bible, it would reasonable to reject the whole thing, or to accept the whole thing, but it wouldn't be reasonable to pick and choose from the Bible. You couldn't rely on it. A person would inevitably read into it what he wanted if he doesn't believe the whole thing true. I hold the Bible is true, and if I have difficulty with any particular subject, I say, 'I don't understand.' This is another reason why I believe we need the Holy Spirit to help us to see the truth. There is a scene in the The Passion of the Christ that I thought was good; the scene where Pontius Pilate was talking with his wife, and he asked, "What is truth?" His wife answered, 'If you can't hear the truth, no one can tell it to you.' Even if we read the Bible through and through, without the Holy Spirit to open our eyes, we will never come to believe it.
John 15:18
New King James Version (NKJV)
The World’s Hatred
<sup class="versenum">18 </sup>“If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you.
Perhaps the question should be asked, does the world hate you as a believer?
- Davies
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Aardverk
Guest
Hi Davies. I do, of course, disagree.
When the various elements of the Bible were penned and again when they were selected for inclusion, the notions and the selection were self evidently perfectly acceptable given the knowledge of the people involved. The decision to include or exclude certain documents was made on the basis of consensus. It was long argued that none of the OT be included - and I wish it were not.
A decision by committee rarely gets things right; it is usually restricted to the lowest common denominator and heavily influenced by the most dominating or the most conniving individuals. It was also seriously affected by the pressure from Emperor Constantine.
Looking back 2,000 years, we now 'know' that many elements of the Bible are historically VERY questionable. I am sure things made perfect sense back then but many do not now. For example, it takes little imagination to see that the story of the flood was simply a (wrong) explanation for how sedimentary rock could be found high up in the mountains. We have serious questions about the very existence of Nazareth at year 0, the totally unrecorded idea of people travelling to their 'home town' (Bethlehem) for a census, a very odd idea, and no record at all of............ You get the idea but I can't say too much or I will be accused of attacking Christianity. I haven't even touched on the origins of the Earth, evolution, Neanderthals etc.
Conversely, I find it impossible to disregard everything in the Bible. A great deal is clearly factual. Our joint problem is that we do not KNOW which bits are factual. I could follow your example and just say, 'I don't understand', but that, to me is exactly the same as saying, 'I doubt that is true'. You have made a decision to accept it all as truth, and I do respect that, but I fail to see any reason to make such a decision.
Davies
Member
Good morning Aardverk,
The things that I say I don't understand, or as you put, 'I doubt that is true,' have been explained very well by men who have spent their lives studying the Bible. Now, you may question the interpretation and continue to cast doubt, but I believe there is a reason God doesn't explain everything in the Bible. If He did, the Book would be libraries. Another reason is the information we have in the Bible, along with Creation, and our conscience is suitable to come to a reasonable faith in Jesus. When you read the Bible, many if not all the prophets didn't understand what God was doing at the time, but they trusted Him. After time went by, they could see what God was doing, and their trust grew in God. Until our hearts our softened towards God, it is reasonable to continue to cast doubt on Bible.
2 Timothy 3:16
New King James Version (NKJV)
<sup class="versenum">16 </sup>All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
Proverbs 3:5
New King James Version (NKJV)
<sup class="versenum">5 </sup>Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
- Davies
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Aardverk
Guest
I can see nothing wrong with your statement Davies. There is however another interest thread running that asks if the opinion of someone who spends his life studying the Bible is worthwhile.
I may not be quite fair in my summary but I think the general response is 'No'. It seems self evident that to form a worthwhile opinion you have to have a wider range of knowledge than just one book - otherwise a bright 11 year old could make judgements as well as you can. I would not believe that for a second.
It comes back to 'balance'. By all means be influenced by everything we read but to exclude masses of evidence on the basis of just one book feels just too uncomfortable to me. It would be rather like having a pastor/priest/rabbi give prosecution evidence in court and 9,999 professors giving defense evidence - and the jury ignoring the 9,999 professors.
I am sure I have said before that I envy people who can simply accept everything on trust - but I simply can not. Whether that is a failing or a 'quality' - I have no idea. Maybe the 9,999 professors would have a worthwhile opinion.
Davies
Member
Good morning Aardverk,
Well, whether you can or cannot except what the Bible says, I hope that our hearts may be softened towards God, so that we may be able to see clearly what the truth is. I personally believe that our lives depend on it. It goes to show you that we have nothing to rely on except the mercy of God.
- Davies