Do you REALLY believe?

[Adams son]

Do you REALLY believe?

 

[Charlotte]

( John 16:13) Jesus told His disciples "Howbeit, when he, the SPIRIT OF TRUTH is come, he will guide you into all truth".

Jesus said He would send the Holy Spirit and it would guide us into the truth.

Charlotte

 

[Adams son]

( John 16:13) Jesus told His disciples "Howbeit, when he, the SPIRIT OF TRUTH is come, he will guide you into all truth".

Jesus said He would send the Holy Spirit and it would guide us into the truth.

Charlotte

Hi Charlotte:

"I am... the Truth..." Jesus

"I no longer live but Christ lives in me" - Paul

"The Lord IS the Spirit" (2 Corinthians).

The Spirit IS the Spirit of Jesus, the Spirit of the Son of God. (Gal 4:6).

Jesus is who he is; Holy Spirit is what the bodily risen Jesus is. His physical body is clothed in Holy Spirit of life and immortality. And in this way, he comes to live in human hearts.

 

[Charlotte]

I know that the Holy Spirit dwells in Jesus, but the source of the Holy Spirit came from God the Father. Because it says in John 3:34) For He whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God (the Father): for God giveth NOT THE SPIRIT BY MEASURE UNTO HIM.

Charlotte

 

[William Putnam]

Do you REALLY believe?

Yes, especially after receiving Him in the Holy Eucharist at Mass! :angel:

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!

 

[Shana]

I believe that they all dwell and work together in the individual's life. I believe that the ultimate source of all is God the Father. (1 Cor. 8:6)God bless.

 

[Adams son]

[quote="Adams son":1e941]Do you REALLY believe?

Yes, especially after receiving Him in the Holy Eucharist at Mass! :angel:

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat![/quote:1e941]

While I can sympathize with your value of the Eucharist William, and I do understand how the signficance of the Lord's Supper has been sorrowfully minimized in Protestantism, I most certainly do not accept the concept of Transubstantiation.

When Jesus said "This is my body" he did not mean the substance of the bread changed but that the PURPOSE of the bread changed. The same thing happens when you are baptized into Christ. You do not change in substance but in function. It is not until the last day that substantial changes will take place. For now everything is a matter of purpose and function. Indeed, the so-called "Bread of the PRESENCE" means literally in Greek "BREAD OF PURPOSE" from the Greek word tithemi. The change is therefore not transubstantiation but a metathesis.

Let me explain it to you this way. Before you were baptrized you are NOT a servant of the Lord Jesus. After you were baptized you are a servant of Jesus. Only then could Jesus say:

"THIS IS MY SERVANT."

Does that mean you changed in SUBSTANCE? NO!!! But the statement is literally and absolutely TRUE. It is a matter of purpose and function not substance.

It means your function and purpose changed. So the change is indeed actually and completely TRUE. The bread and wine BECOME the body and blood of Jesus TRULY. But there is more than one way for something to become something TRULY. The bread becomes the body TRULY by a change in its function, not a change in its substance.

When Jesus says, "This is my body" he does not mean it is the same body as his risen body. He is referring to the idea that a man's bride's body is his body. It is not male body he is talking about but female body. The two shall become one flesh and this will ultimately happen at his Coming. For now she is only a betrothed bride awaiting this consummation.

This bread binds us together in the church. It is the making of the bride of Jesus. But it is ONLY when we are all raised from the dead that this bread which becomes us when we eat it, will be changed in SUBSTANCE. And this is why Jesus keeps referring to the "last day" in John 6.

As it is, there is NO reason to suppose the bread is changed in substance and EVERY REASON to believe it is not since it will be later changed in substance when we are raised from the dead. Only THEN, will you be able to say, "It is both."

Do you understand?

 

[William Putnam]

http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/realp.htm[/url]

and

http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/trans.htm

(Where there is some duplication in both links.)

As it is, there is NO reason to suppose the bread is changed in substance and EVERY REASON to believe it is not since it will be later changed in substance when we are raised from the dead. Only THEN, will you be able to say, "It is both."

Do you understand?

I " understand" completely what I believe about the Holy Eucharist, a most wonderful sacrament, the most beautiful of all the sacraments, a mysterious sacrament where we understand the implication of His literal words without understanding how He does it.

Why compromise to lesser significance what is a wonderful and most blessed of the Sacraments that has us go against our own senses and believe that acdtual transubstantiation of the bread and wine into his actual body and blood, soul and divinity? Why, oh why do you blemish the glory of a most wonderful "unseen" miracle of the Eucharist that requires the most profound belief in pure faith, something those Jews who deserted Him, along with some of His own disciples, when Christ unfolds this wonderful exposition?


God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Receive the holy Spirit, Whose sins you shall forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained,
John 20:23

 

[cj]

Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

Which pretty much declares the truth of Jesus being the bread of life and the living water.

The bread and wine are symbolic of what Jesus is to us and what He has done for us.

Jesus is the bread, just as He is the word...... when we consume Him as the word we in fact consume Him as the bread of life.

This is what Jesus meant.

Just as we receive food and this food becomes constituted with our bodies, so as we receive Jesus (as the Spirit), we become constituted with Him in our very being.

To teach that Jesus is divided in His flesh into millions of tiny man-made wafers, supplied by one of the hundreds of Romanist commercial businesses (yes, the local church pays for these wafers out of its monetary collection, just as it does for many other things, eg. the palm sunday crosses. Remember, commerce is why iniquity was found in Satan), is to teach one of the most vile doctrines ever invented by men. And exposes the depths of depravity men can fall to.


In love,
cj

 

[William Putnam]

Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

Which pretty much declares the truth of Jesus being the bread of life and the living water.

The bread and wine are symbolic of what Jesus is to us and what He has done for us.

Did any of the words I used in explaining John 6 go so completely over your head, as it seems to have in that statement?

Jesus is the bread, just as He is the word...... when we consume Him as the word we in fact consume Him as the bread of life.

This is what Jesus meant.

Just as we receive food and this food becomes constituted with our bodies, so as we receive Jesus (as the Spirit), we become constituted with Him in our very being.

To teach that Jesus is divided in His flesh into millions of tiny man-made wafers, supplied by one of the hundreds of Romanist commercial businesses (yes, the local church pays for these wafers out of its monetary collection, just as it does for many other things, eg. the palm sunday crosses. Remember, commerce is why iniquity was found in Satan), is to teach one of the most vile doctrines ever invented by men. And exposes the depths of depravity men can fall to.

cj, pardon me, but you remind me of the Jews who departed from Him, along with some of Jesus' own disciples.

If I cannot convince you with the words I have used, then I am not the adequate word-smith that I would convince you, come holy Spirit.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


For those who believe, no proof is necessary;
For those who do not believe, no proof is possible.

 

[cj]

Did any of the words I used in explaining John 6 go so completely over your head, as it seems to have in that statement?

Over my head?

No, my prideful one........ just outside with the rest of the garbage.

cj, pardon me, but you remind me of the Jews who departed from Him, along with some of Jesus' own disciples.

The Jews had already shown that they were incapable of "staying" with Him. The scriptures are clear concerning how often the Jews strayed from the law.

Scripture is also clear about the many errors the remaining disciples held onto, including foot-in-his-mouth Peter.

If I cannot convince you with the words I have used, then I am not the adequate word-smith that I would convince you, come holy Spirit.

Bill, it is not your word-smithing that is in need, it is your understanding of the truth contained in the scriptures that is desperately short.



In love,
cj

 

[William Putnam]

Did any of the words I used in explaining John 6 go so completely over your head, as it seems to have in that statement?

Over my head?

No, my prideful one........ just outside with the rest of the garbage.

[quote="William Putnam":8f42d]cj, pardon me, but you remind me of the Jews who departed from Him, along with some of Jesus' own disciples.

The Jews had already shown that they were incapable of "staying" with Him. The scriptures are clear concerning how often the Jews strayed from the law.

Scripture is also clear about the many errors the remaining disciples held onto, including foot-in-his-mouth Peter.

If I cannot convince you with the words I have used, then I am not the adequate word-smith that I would convince you, come holy Spirit.

Bill, it is not your word-smithing that is in need, it is your understanding of the truth contained in the scriptures that is desperately short.[/quote:8f42d]

I see that I have gotten you upset, thus I find it futile to continue on in this thread.

Have a nice day...

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+



- Anima Christi -

Soul of Christ, sanctify me.
Body of Christ, save me.
Blood of Christ, inebriate me.
Water from the side of Christ, wash me.
Passion of Christ, strengthen me.
O good Jesus, hear me;
Within Thy wounds hide me and permit
me not to be separated from Thee.
From the Wicked Foe defend me.
And bid me to come to Thee,
That with Thy Saints I may praise Thee,
For ever and ever. Amen.

 

[smaller]

Love and God's Word say the same things. If they don't then the voice that is not in line with The Word is a voice in error.

 

[William Putnam]

Love and God's Word say the same things. If they don't then the voice that is not in line with The Word is a voice in error.

OK??????? (Not sure to whom this is addressed to.......)

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Forgive us Lord,
when in longing to defend what is right,
when in trying to support the truth
we do what is hurtful and mean,
forgetting to take out
whatever logs are in our own eyes
to take the speck out of the eye of our fellows,
forgetting to work all things in love.

Lord, forgive us
when hurt by our fellow man,
we complain, and strike back.

Heal us Lord,
and give us strength to offer you
our hurts and sadnesses,
to offer you the pain of being corrected,
rather rightly or not.

If it is our job to correct,
help us learn to do it in ways that heal,
not hurt,

And whatever we do in your name,
may we always do it for your glory,
without hate, anger,
or the taint of self-righteousness.

May we learn to be quiet
in our longing and respect for you,
rather than speak words
that would drive any away from you,
or harm those who love you.

And when we speak,
may it always be guided by the Holy Spirit.

Amen.

 

[cj]

I see that I have gotten you upset, thus I find it futile to continue on in this thread.

You flater yourself Bill.

Christ is my peace, and I have Christ.... and He has me.

Just as the apostate institution of Roman Catholicism is simply the vanity of God's adversary expressed, so to are the pathetic attempts of this one's apologists.

The only thing that upsets me is lie of the enemy continually invading the minds of the saints.

But I know that this is not a battle of flesh and blood but one that is spiritual.



I'm still awaiting some sort of response from you that sticks to scripture.


In love,
cj

 

[Heidi]

What Bill doesn't understand is that JESUS is the bread of life, NOT sotre-bought bread. JESUS told us that Communion is an act in "remembrance" of what he did for us. Jesus explains in John, 6:58-58, that HIM LIVING in us, is what gives us REAL life and REAL food. NOT just taking Communion. It's again like Habbukuk said; "Woe to the man who says; 'wood come to life." One CANNOT make store-bought bread into REAL life. ONLY Christ living in us gives us real life and real food that sustains us throughout eternity.

 

[Adams son]

Bill,

You COMPLETELY missed my point.

Listen carefully.

1. I insist that the bread and wine are TRULY changed into the TRUE BODY and TRUE blood of Christ. I do hope that is clear. So let me say it one more time. I insist that the bread and wine are TRULY changed into the TRUE BODY and TRUE blood of Christ.

2. I insist that your view (transubstantiation) regarding the precise NATURE OF THE CHANGE is completely incorrect and there is absolutely NO Scriptural support for it whatsoever. You should not therefore jump to conclusions that I am saying the change is only "symbolic" or a consubstantiation concept or anything else and then argue against something I am not advocating. You should read what I am actually saying here.

3. Hence the body and blood are TRULY the body and blood of Christ but this is true in terms of FUNCTION but not presently true in terms of SUBSTANCE.

I am saying this: You are presuming that the body and blood can only be TRULY changed into the TRUE body and blood in ONE WAY and the ONE WAY is if there was a change to the SUBSTANCE of the bread and wine (Transubstantiation). This logical premise is INCORRECT. You are startring from a false presumption. Something can be TRULY changed into something else without a change to its substance. Your whole argument denies this possibility and that is what is completely incorrect about it.

If I take a stick that is only a stick and nothing but a stick I can CHANGE that stick into a weapon. All I need to do is decide to USE IT as a weapon and it BECOMES a weapon. Nothing about the substance of the stick changed whatsoever. However, its FUNCTION did change and so the stick became a weapon and was CHANGED into a weapon without any change to its substance at all. The stick is still "stick substance" and no change in its substance took place. It did NOT transubstantiate into a weapon but it also now functions as a weapon because its purpose was changed into a weapon. Its PURPOSE was changed NOT its substance.

So as you can see, your starting premise, that something can only TRULY become something else if a change in substance occurs and only if, is totally false.

In the SAME WAY, the bread is changed functionally, not in substance. The "Bread of Presence" is literally "Bread of PURPOSE." When we become Christians we enter the BODY OF CHRIST and become members, parts of, the BODY OF CHRIST. Absolutely NOTHING changed about our substance YET we TRULY became a TRUE part of the body of Christ. Our nature did NOT transubstantiate in our baptisms and nothing in our substance change at all. But we did change in PURPOSE and FUNCTION and in this way we TRULY are the body of Christ in TRUTH. Our nature WILL transubstantiate in our resurrections. For NOW, we are the body of Christ with respect to PURPOSE and FUNCTION and only insofar we purpose to function according to the Spirit of God in the body of the Lord. Hence, you can also hopefully see that we members of the body of Christ are TRULY the body of Christ WITHOUT any change to our substance. And hopefully you can then see that a change in substance is not necessary for something to become TRULY something else.

It is the same idea with the bread of the Lord's Supper. The bread is changed according to its function and PURPOSE. It is STILL bread that functions as the body of Christ, just like the stick that functions as a weapon. The stick is still stick substance and the bread is still bread substance. The stick became a weapon according to FUNCTION and the bread becomes the body of Christ according to FUNCTION only. There is not change in substance in either case but one is as true as the other.

MOREOVER, the body in question is not the male body of the bridegroom Jesus. The body in question which we eat is the body of the female bride. This one bread binds us altogether as one bride in the flesh. We are already united in the Spirit. The bread unites our fleshly bodies into one fleshly bride for the risen bridegroom Jesus who is himself glorified flesh. See Ephesians 5:25-32 for more.

FURTHERMORE, we fleshly humans are the body of Christ. We are bound together by the bread we eat. This bread becomes US and because we eat the one bread we are one body because that one bread that we eat becomes us and we all at the same bread (see 1 Corinthians 10:16-18).

The body of Christ, us humans, will NOT be transubstantiated until the resurrection of the body. It is THEN that the bread in us which became us will be TRANSUBSTANTIATED and this is why Jesus referred to the last day over and over in John 6.

Hence, everything about Scripture DEMANDS that we understand that the bread changes into the body, not in substance, but in FUNCTION/PURPOSE.
And there is NOTHING in Scripture to have us believe otherwise or to suppose the bread changes in substance. Indeed, the Scripture indicates OTHERWISE.

The bread and wine TRULY become the TRUE body and blood. The stick also TRULY became a TRUE weapon. To TRULY becomes something does not necessitate a change in substance. It ONLY necessitates a change in function. And since we have every reason to believe the change is functional and no reason to believe the change is in substance, and also every reason to believe the change is NOT in substance, we must conclude then that the change to the bread and wine is a metathesis, a change in function and purpose.

On the last day, yes then the bread will transubstantiate. It will because we the body of Christ ate that bread and that bread is now us that will be transformed when we are raised from the dead.

Do you understand?

 

[Henry]

Adams

Man you are long winded, perhaps if you wrote shorter post someone might read them.

Oh, and the communion bread is just bread. It only changes after we eat it and we'll just not say what it does change to.

Memoral, reflective and looking forward.