Bible Study Do you think.......

[Jethro Bodine]

You said they knew Jesus was the Messiah. Do you really think they did

Yes, I do think they knew.
Rejecting Christ because of a lack of knowledge is one thing. But rejecting him in the face of the undeniable testimony of the Holy Spirit (committing blasphemy of the Holy Spirit) is quite another.

"3how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard, 4God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will." (Hebrews 2:3-4 NASB bold mine)

The Spirit had not been poured out yet so there was no conviction like there is today, or the days after Pentecost.

The Spirit was not poured out wholesale as it was after the Day of Pentecost as you say. But prior to that He was indeed in the world testifying to the Jews through the working of miracles, and also speaking in the secret place of the heart to men about who Jesus is:

"15He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 16:15-17 NASB bold mine)

 

[Chopper]

You said they knew Jesus was the Messiah. Do you really think they did, or like me think they should have known? I cannot find where they ever thought He was the Messiah. In fact, they were upset when He would refer to such things. "Seemingly" being righteous in their thoughts.

It's not a question of if they were wrong. We all know they were wrong. Did they know they were doing wrong things, as in completely off track. I'm not sure how it was then really. If they did not have the Spirit dwelling in them then there would be no conviction of sin. Like it is with believers now days.

The Spirit had not been poured out yet so there was no conviction like there is today, or the days after Pentecost. In those days, the years leading up to the coming of Jesus, the Spirit was giving to certain men for certain tasks.

I believe you are right in the fact that Israel's leaders did not believe that Jesus was their Messiah. If you don't mind, I'd like to add one word to your quote...."If they did not have the Spirit dwelling in them then there would be no conviction of sin. Like it is with some believers now days."....All "Believers" have the Holy Spirit indwelling them, but many don't walk in the Spirit.

We don't want new Believers to think that they don't have the Holy Spirit in them with His conviction.

 

[Nathan]

I do see what your saying, but its not exactly what I am asking about. I think it applies some though, so thanks for adding to the topic.

I do need to clarify my position on the matter. I am NOT trying to somehow justify or deem the Pharisee's "good". I think they were wrong, the same as I think anyone who does not follow Christ is wrong. I just had a moment a while back when I thought about modern day Pharisee's(as in leaders) and wondered how it related to ones in the past.

I think often we only look at the Pharisee's in how they interacted with Jesus. Not in an overall sense. We hear the word "Pharisee" and automatically think bad thoughts. Not looking at it as simply a word used for the leaders of that day.

Paul talks specifically of them having a complete lack of understanding of what was taking place - 1 Corinthians 2. It was to fulfill the plan of God we see now in hindsight. I think it goes along with what Paul talks about in Romans, questioning why God does certain things that can sometimes look like contradictions.

I do believe they rejected Jesus as being the Christ, but that was simply because of the hardness of their heart. Which ties into the question, and why it came up. I know it was mentioned already, but Paul is one of the main things we see that give real indication of the thought that the Pharisee in that day honestly did think that they were serving God.

 

[Nathan]

I believe you are right in the fact that Israel's leaders did not believe that Jesus was their Messiah. If you don't mind, I'd like to add one word to your quote...."If they did not have the Spirit dwelling in them then there would be no conviction of sin. Like it is with some believers now days."....All "Believers" have the Holy Spirit indwelling them, but many don't walk in the Spirit.

We don't want new Believers to think that they don't have the Holy Spirit in them with His conviction.

Yes, that did not sound right. I did not word that thought correctly. What I meant to say was that they did not have the Spirit dwelling in them, but the believers of today do. Two opposites of each other, if that makes sense.

One of those tricky things where I know what I am thinking, but another can read it a totally opposite way. Thanks for bringing that up. I would not want people to think that a believer does not have the Spirit inside him/her. If the Spirit is inside you, you will ALWAYS be convicted of sin. I cannot speak for what it was like back then, but we know that without the Spirit there is no "conviction" of sin. I do think a person can understand right and wrong, to a degree, but conviction of sin is different.

I just had another thought about that, but it would take this thread off on a totally different path. I may need to contemplate it though, because it might actually have some application......hmmmmmm......

 

[Chopper]

Yes, I do think they knew.
Rejecting Christ because of a lack of knowledge is one thing. But rejecting him in the face of the undeniable testimony of the Holy Spirit (committing blasphemy of the Holy Spirit) is quite another.

"3how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard, 4God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will." (Hebrews 2:3-4 NASB bold mine)


The Spirit was not poured out wholesale as it was after the Day of Pentecost as you say. But prior to that He was indeed in the world testifying to the Jews through the working of miracles, and also speaking in the secret place of the heart to men about who Jesus is:

I don't know about this statement of yours Jethro my old friend....

Yes, I do think they knew.

They heard what others were saying about Jesus, and they certainly heard who Jesus claimed to be, One with His Father, which made them want to kill Him on several occasions. Had they REALLY KNOWN, I believe that they would have acted different, much different!

"15He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 16:15-17 NASB bold mine)

 

[Nathan]

I think it's hard to separate the plan of God(which is eternal and unchanging) with human actions. I think in part the Pharisee's thought they were doing God a favor in what they were doing.

Contemplate this. We all have, to some degree, a thought of end times and such - even current beliefs. Look at how we "debate" amongst ourselves. What would you do/say/think if someone came and started saying things that went against what you think?

Again, not trying to justify them, just trying to relate what happened then to what could happen - or be happening - now.

 

[Chopper]

I do see what your saying, but its not exactly what I am asking about. I think it applies some though, so thanks for adding to the topic.

I do need to clarify my position on the matter. I am NOT trying to somehow justify or deem the Pharisee's "good". I think they were wrong, the same as I think anyone who does not follow Christ is wrong. I just had a moment a while back when I thought about modern day Pharisee's(as in leaders) and wondered how it related to ones in the past.

I think often we only look at the Pharisee's in how they interacted with Jesus. Not in an overall sense. We hear the word "Pharisee" and automatically think bad thoughts. Not looking at it as simply a word used for the leaders of that day.

Paul talks specifically of them having a complete lack of understanding of what was taking place - 1 Corinthians 2. It was to fulfill the plan of God we see now in hindsight. I think it goes along with what Paul talks about in Romans, questioning why God does certain things that can sometimes look like contradictions.

I do believe they rejected Jesus as being the Christ, but that was simply because of the hardness of their heart. Which ties into the question, and why it came up. I know it was mentioned already, but Paul is one of the main things we see that give real indication of the thought that the Pharisee in that day honestly did think that they were serving God.

Thanks again for your reply. One of the things that I have noticed about the Jews in general is that they place a lot of what they do today on what their fore-Fathers did. The Leaders of Israel's past, is generally what the Leaders do today. Just the fact that the Leaders of Israel's high court (Sanhedrin) had Jesus crucified, says a lot of their knowledge base.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I think it's hard to separate the plan of God(which is eternal and unchanging) with human actions. I think in part the Pharisee's thought they were doing God a favor in what they were doing.

Contemplate this. We all have, to some degree, a thought of end times and such - even current beliefs. Look at how we "debate" amongst ourselves. What would you do/say/think if someone came and started saying things that went against what you think?

Again, not trying to justify them, just trying to relate what happened then to what could happen - or be happening - now.

You're much deeper than the usual sample from Christianity, You dare to meditate on the Word of God and there seems to be so few of us that try to live by the Word of God today. You read like a breath of the fresh Texas air, seconds before the rain falls.
Thank you for loving God so deeply, mau His name be exalted.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Thanks again for your reply. One of the things that I have noticed about the Jews in general is that they place a lot of what they do today on what their fore-Fathers did. The Leaders of Israel's past, is generally what the Leaders do today. Just the fact that the Leaders of Israel's high court (Sanhedrin) had Jesus crucified, says a lot of their knowledge base.

Tradition, even in face of new revelation, is so difficult to dislodge. And each time I have been fortunate enough to complete a complete read through, from front to back, I am struck with the continual, greater, revelation of our God, all the way through the death and ascension of Jesus.

Maybe I'm weird but it has oft brought me to tears contemplating the heart of God as we run so hard, lusting after the flesh, ignoring Him.

 

[Nathan]

Thanks again for your reply. One of the things that I have noticed about the Jews in general is that they place a lot of what they do today on what their fore-Fathers did. The Leaders of Israel's past, is generally what the Leaders do today. Just the fact that the Leaders of Israel's high court (Sanhedrin) had Jesus crucified, says a lot of their knowledge base.

I agree. I see the same thing. It's interesting when you compare what goes on today in religious circles.

 

[Nathan]

Tradition, even in face of new revelation, is so difficult to dislodge. And each time I have been fortunate enough to complete a complete read through, from front to back, I am struck with the continual, greater, revelation of our God, all the way through the death and ascension of Jesus.

Maybe I'm weird but it has oft brought me to tears contemplating the heart of God as we run so hard, lusting after the flesh, ignoring Him.

Not weird at all

 

[Chopper]

Something goofy happened to post # 25. I replied to something Jethro said and, ??????????????????????????

 

[Jim Parker]

The Pharisee's believed they were doing wrong in what they said and did?
As in, did they make a conscience decision, knowing full well they were going against God, in what they did - which elicited so many of Jesus' words against them?
I'm not talking about any one thing they did specifically. We know, in hind sight - and from Jesus' teachings - that they were doing things wrong. But did they at the time?

I think the Jewish religious leadership thought they were doing the right thing in protecting their privileged religious status which Rome granted them to allow the continued practice of Judaism and the exclusion of Roman pagan temples in their kingdom.

I think they were fearful that Jesus was another self-declared messiah bent of leading a rebellion against Rome and puting their nation and the practice of their religion in peril.

Those who believed became followers. (Nicodemus, et al.)


iakov the fool

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't know about this statement of yours Jethro my old friend....
↑

"Yes, I do think they knew."
​

They heard what others were saying about Jesus, and they certainly heard who Jesus claimed to be, One with His Father, which made them want to kill Him on several occasions. Had they REALLY KNOWN, I believe that they would have acted different, much different!

Maybe this will help:

"39And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.” 40Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?” 41Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains." (John 9:39-41 NASB bold mine)

The Pharisees could not have been guilty of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit if they did not really know that the Holy Spirit was testifying through the miracles that Jesus was doing. God is just, if they did not really know, then they would not be guilty of sin.

 

[Nathan]

So one reason I started this thread, I think I made mention of it already, was how the leadership of that day relates to what it is today.

The logical followup with this is asking the question - Do the people today who lead the "church" believe they are doing things right?

To give some additional background, the "pastor" at the place I go to gather with others for fellowship, often contradicts himself in what he says and does. I have approached him before - very low key - but he does not seem like he knows about this contradiction.

Its interesting to me really. Used to be frustrating, but I let that go a while back. But its kind of like how things are here when a topic starts going and you have many different opinions on the matter. Often you'll see someone contradicting themselves, but they honestly seem to have no clue.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Do the people today who lead the "church" believe they are doing things right?

This is the church you're talking about, lol.
Of course they think they're doing things right.

They're doing exactly what they were taught, not what they read in their Bibles.

 

[Kidron]

Lots of ways to look at your question, with answers forthcoming that support each viewpoint - opinion.

1.) Its probable that many of the Pharisees believed that Jesus was their Messiah, but they had such envy.......and the bible says...."who can stand before envy"...

2.) There is also the NT scripture that says that unbeliever's are "mind blinded" and controlled by Satan as he would have them behave.
So, in this case, Jesus explains...."you are of your Father the Devil, and the lusts of your Father you will do".
(by the way, thats everyone who is not born again)(and some who are).

Finally, you have this...
3.) From the Cross Jesus said......"they (Pharisees)(and others) know NOT what they do"..

So, there are 3 cases with thoughts included, that you might consider at your leisure..

 

[Chopper]

This is the church you're talking about, lol.
Of course they think they're doing things right.

They're doing exactly what they were taught, not what they read in their Bibles.

BOY, AIN'T THAT THE TRUTH!!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"you are of your Father the Devil, and the lusts of your Father you will do".
(by the way, thats everyone who is not born again)(and some who are).

That's only true in hyper-grace doctrine, in order to make 1 John 3:8,10 NASB not mean what it so plainly says.

In hyper-grace doctrine, the former believer who has become unrighteous in lifestyle is simply acting like a child of the devil but is still a child of God, while John says they are a child of the devil. John says if they were a child of God they would be acting like it.

Finally, you have this...
3.) From the Cross Jesus said......"they (Pharisees)(and others) know NOT what they do"..

When a person can see, but then rejects what he sees, God gives him over to the unbelief he has chosen and he can then no longer see:

"39And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”" (John 9:39 NASB)