Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another excuse?

[glorydaz]

I see many people claiming man has a "sin nature" or they may even call it original sin.

Is this true, in your opinion, or is it simply an excuse for sin? God has a divine nature and man has a human nature, so how did this sin nature come into being? Did man change after Adam's sin or did Adam have this "sin nature", too?

I see no support from the Word that it's in our nature to sin.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Danus]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

I see many people claiming man has a "sin nature" or they may even call it original sin.

Is this true, in your opinion, or is it simply an excuse for sin? God has a divine nature and man has a human nature, so how did this sin nature come into being? Did man change after Adam's sin or did Adam have this "sin nature", too?

I see no support from the Word that it's in our nature to sin.

What are your thoughts?

What we do see from scripture is a change in man's relationship with God brought about by the fall of man.

While that might suffice for explaining the relationship, your asking about man's condition, or man's nature. In other words, humanity's state of sin resulting from the fall. That correct?

From what you've said here, you see no biblical evidence of man's condition changing as a result of the fall, and that Adam's nature was the same before the fall as he was after the fall. Your argument seems to be that Adam's only difference is his disobedience to God where as prior to that he obeyed, but as far as Adam's core nature it was the same before and after? And that scripture does not prove, or point out, that his nature changed?

I'm I understanding your argument correctly?

 

[childeye]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

I see many people claiming man has a "sin nature" or they may even call it original sin.

Is this true, in your opinion, or is it simply an excuse for sin? God has a divine nature and man has a human nature, so how did this sin nature come into being? Did man change after Adam's sin or did Adam have this "sin nature", too?

I see no support from the Word that it's in our nature to sin.

What are your thoughts?

In the sense that a man's nature when in innocence before eating the fruit I would agree it is not in our nature. But post garden after eating the fruit, it was a corrupt nature that would grow in corruption through hypocrisy of vanity.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

What we do see from scripture is a change in man's relationship with God brought about by the fall of man.

While that might suffice for explaining the relationship, your asking about man's condition, or man's nature. In other words, humanity's state of sin resulting from the fall. That correct?

Not humanity's state of sin resulting from Adam's sin, if I understand what you're saying there, but our basic nature being the same as His was...both before and after we sin. After sinning, we feel guilt, just as he did. We don't carry his sin, but we do quickly follow suit.

From what you've said here, you see no biblical evidence of man's condition changing as a result of the fall, and that Adam's nature was the same before the fall as he was after the fall. Your argument seems to be that Adam's only difference is his disobedience to God where as prior to that he obeyed, but as far as Adam's core nature it was the same before and after? And that scripture does not prove, or point out, that his nature changed?

I'm I understanding your argument correctly?

Yes, I think that's more accurate. What changed for Adam after he sinned was not his nature, but the fact that he no longer walked with God....his place of residence changed. He still had his conscience, and knew God, but from a distance. Being alone, his spirit had no source to renew it, so it became basically useless. It's the same with us...we start out innocent, then we sin, and it's sin that causes us to be separated from God.

Sin and death came into the world and Adam found himself expelled from the presence of God and in the same place we are today.

 

[reba]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

Sin and death came into the world and Adam found himself expelled from the presence of God and in the same place we are today.

I see a difference between us and Adam.... Adam walked and talked with God then the fall (label it however you wish) We start out in the fallen state. Adam did not.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

In the sense that a man's nature when in innocence before eating the fruit I would agree it is not in our nature. But post garden after eating the fruit, it was a corrupt nature that would grow in corruption through hypocrisy of vanity.

I just realized something, after reading your post, I didn't know. Some translations have human nature for the flesh. I didn't know that. At least I'll know what you guys are talking about now when you say human nature.

Walking in the flesh I understand....what we lost in the garden was access to the tree of life. Death and sin entered the world, and we live in a corrupt world. It isn't that our nature is fallen, but we are weak in the flesh and susceptible to sin. It's the practice of sin that actually condemns us.

So, can I assume no one thinks we are sinful from birth?

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

I see a difference between us and Adam.... Adam walked and talked with God then the fall (label it however you wish) We start out in the fallen state. Adam did not.

Uh oh...and here I thought I had it all cleared up. ;)

So, are you saying, Reba, that babies are in a fallen state before they have a chance to sin?
I just want to make sure that's what you're saying here before I respond, and if you explain it for me if you would.

 

[childeye]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

The interesting part of this op, is the issue of whether it is just another excuse. We all have sinned because we are flesh. If one believes we are replaying Adam and Eve every time we sin, they approach the subject of forgiveness differently than if they believed all men had been corrupted by one act. To them it would be called an excuse. The problem is, to sin over and over and over again, you incriminate your self and criticize others the more because all sin is just an excuse. It would be hard to have mercy enough to turn the other cheek and return good for evil if one believed there were no sin nature. After all, it may be that some unlucky other guy got it worse than I did and their sin problem is greater than mine. With the knowledge that it is a sinful nature I would see why I must turn the other cheek and return good for evil.

If it is true that there is a sin nature, then the blame for all sin is brought down to one act in the garden. And so whether our common parents ate because they were unconfident and gullible makes a major difference in ones syche than if they were rebellious, lusting and conspiring against God.

 

[reba]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

I dont know. I am not sure of what i grasp from the scriptures.

Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Mar 10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

God is merciful. We quickly see the beauty in a baby i love the nuzzling neck smell.

Yet we know they demanding, self centered, jealous, those not so pleasant attributes . Is there a magic age of accountability? As in your now 13 your accountable. I doubt that. Are babies condemned to hell (what ever you believe hell to be) i dont think so.

Some things in scripture i dont 'hold' a hard line on... If one takes psa 58;3 literally it speaks strongly for election some how i dont.. BUT then here is this verse...
Psa 22:9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
Psa 22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

Believe it or not i am not trying to be vague i am trying to put my heart/thought into words.

God does not contradict Himself so our/my understanding needs to mature.

Same as with John 3 16 and Eph 1:4

 

[childeye]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

I dont know. I am not sure of what i grasp from the scriptures.

Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Mar 10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

God is merciful. We quickly see the beauty in a baby i love the nuzzling neck smell.

Yet we know they demanding, self centered, jealous, those not so pleasant attributes . Is there a magic age of accountability? As in your now 13 your accountable. I doubt that. Are babies condemned to hell (what ever you believe hell to be) i dont think so.

Some things in scripture i dont 'hold' a hard line on... If one takes psa 58;3 literally it speaks strongly for election some how i dont.. BUT then here is this verse...
Psa 22:9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
Psa 22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

Believe it or not i am not trying to be vague i am trying to put my heart/thought into words.

God does not contradict Himself so our/my understanding needs to mature.

Same as with John 3 16 and Eph 1:4

Just saying Reba, there is the fact that mankind saw that they were naked and this means men were changed by the fruit of the tree.

I'm sure you're aware Psalm 22 is about Jesus.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

"I see many people claiming man has a "sin nature" or they may even call it original sin."

What the Bible says is (Rom 8):

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Case closed: Man has a "Sin nature".

"is it simply an excuse for sin?"

It's certainly a REASON for sin - we SIN because we are SINNERS.

Simple as that.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

I see many people claiming man has a "sin nature" or they may even call it original sin.

Is this true, in your opinion, or is it simply an excuse for sin? God has a divine nature and man has a human nature, so how did this sin nature come into being? Did man change after Adam's sin or did Adam have this "sin nature", too?

I see no support from the Word that it's in our nature to sin.

What are your thoughts?

We were created with an ability to be able to make choice's for ourselves...These choices are not under the control of God...If He's will had been to create a race of robots that, merely did His bidding, He could have done that as well, after all, He's God...If man, had no choice but, to love God, because he (man) was under God's full control, then God could not have a "real" fellowship" with man due to the fact, man was forced to be obedient to God by virtue of not having "any" choice...Would you want some one to love you, because you forced them, or would it be better to have them, choose to love you?? Getting to the "sin nature subject now, which is "aligned" with our ability to choose...Because, God choose to create us with the freedom to be obedient or disobedient, there was "always" the possibility that we would "choose to sin" That was the "risk" God was willing to take, to have a "real" fellowship with His creation... Unfortunately , man choose to be disobedient, and thereby, sealed his own fate...God put forth "judgments" against both, Adam and Eve...And they both were cast out of the garden...Now, they had the, "knowledge of both good and evil available to them, combined with their, "ever present ability to choose..." Personal fellowship with God had been separated, and man is left to, not only fend for himself, but he's now in the position of being tempted to sin, not only by his own "sinful nature" (brought about by his disobedience) but is "susceptible" to the wiles of Satan...

 

[Eventide]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

Paul teaches us that sin is in us, and that it's not us..

For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

 

[mondar]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

Eph 2:1 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins,

The fall of Adam is all about spiritual "Death." The verse above speaks of this descent of mankind into sin, or sin nature in the fall of Adam. Fortunately, the Christian is made alive, but that does not mean we all were not under the Adamic slavery to sin in the past. Notice the connection between Eph 2:1 and death with Romans 5.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned:--

This verse speaks of sin entering the world through Adam. If you remember the curse upon Adam was death. Adams eventual death was the consequence of sin. So in the verse above, death is passed on to all men, just as Adams sin is passed on to all men. We all now have that sin nature and death accompanies the sin that dwells in us.

Romans 5:18 So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life.

In this verse the human race is not judged because of our own moral infractions, but because we are in Adam. The one act of Adam brings "judgment... unto all men to condemnation." It is not our individual sins that bring condemnation, because we are already under condemnation. The individual sins might confirm our status as condemned already.

Eph 2:3 among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:--

Others have quoted verses which show mans nature that are good verses, but my own personal favorite is Ephesians 2:3. Notice the word "nature" occurs right in the verse. Our nature is not a blank slate. In fact the term "sin nature" is probably inadequate to describe the depravity of mans nature. We are "by nature children of wrath." We serve our father the devil (John 8). We do the desires of the flesh, and live in that lust of the flesh.

Understanding the nature of man, and how guilty we really are, is the beginning of knowing the gospel. Who then can be saved? One can be saved only when he bows before God and acknowledges how great his need of grace actually is. Salvation is by God's grace alone.

 

[reba]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

Just saying Reba, there is the fact that mankind saw that they were naked and this means men were changed by the fruit of the tree.

I'm sure you're aware Psalm 22 is about Jesus.

It is hard to find a scripture that is not about Christ. Yet they can also apply to us.
I like the 10 commandments they are not complex :eeeekkk

 

[mondar]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

So, are you saying, Reba, that babies are in a fallen state before they have a chance to sin?
I just want to make sure that's what you're saying here before I respond, and if you explain it for me if you would.

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me.

That says the mother was in sin...not the baby.

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

I dont know. I am not sure of what i grasp from the scriptures.

Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Mar 10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

God is merciful. We quickly see the beauty in a baby i love the nuzzling neck smell.

Yet we know they demanding, self centered, jealous, those not so pleasant attributes . Is there a magic age of accountability? As in your now 13 your accountable. I doubt that. Are babies condemned to hell (what ever you believe hell to be) i dont think so.

Some things in scripture i dont 'hold' a hard line on... If one takes psa 58;3 literally it speaks strongly for election some how i dont.. BUT then here is this verse...
Psa 22:9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
Psa 22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

Believe it or not i am not trying to be vague i am trying to put my heart/thought into words.

God does not contradict Himself so our/my understanding needs to mature.

Same as with John 3 16 and Eph 1:4

Before something can be called sin, we must know it is sin. Babies and small children certainly do not understand disobedience to God. And that's what sin is.... In our modern legal system, they say ignorance is no excuse.....oops, I just noticed I spelled excuse wrong in my title (I don't suppose you could fix that for me could you, Reba?).

Anyway, God is more Just than man, and He tells us before the law there was no sin. To me, that isn't just the law of Moses, but God's moral law written in the conscience of man. So, when a child's conscience tells him something is wrong and he goes ahead and does it, it would be sin. If his parents tell him something is wrong, he must obey his parents...once he reaches the age where he has "accountability" as you say. God alone knows when we are accountable, and I don't think there is any certain age.

And you're absolutely correct in pointing out that Jesus told us to be like little children for such is the kingdom of heaven. If little children were held accountable by God then Jesus would never have said what He did.

 

[childeye]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

I just realized something, after reading your post, I didn't know. Some translations have human nature for the flesh. I didn't know that. At least I'll know what you guys are talking about now when you say human nature.

Walking in the flesh I understand....what we lost in the garden was access to the tree of life. Death and sin entered the world, and we live in a corrupt world. It isn't that our nature is fallen, but we are weak in the flesh and susceptible to sin. It's the practice of sin that actually condemns us.

So, can I assume no one thinks we are sinful from birth?

I don't understand how not having access to the tree of life has anything to do with it. I agree we are weak in the flesh but this has nothing to do with anything either. As I said the corruption is iniquity through hypocrisy because of the knowledge of good and evil. So it is that the blood of the slain lamb was put around the doors and the windows to protect one's house from the destroyer who comes according to what our own mouths say.

 

[childeye]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

"I see many people claiming man has a "sin nature" or they may even call it original sin."

What the Bible says is (Rom 8):

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Case closed: Man has a "Sin nature".

"is it simply an excuse for sin?"


It's certainly a REASON for sin - we SIN because we are SINNERS.

Simple as that.

Very good post. Self evident truth.