Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another excuse?

[childeye]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

Before something can be called sin, we must know it is sin. Babies and small children certainly do not understand disobedience to God. And that's what sin is.... In our modern legal system, they say ignorance is no excuse.....oops, I just noticed I spelled excuse wrong in my title (I don't suppose you could fix that for me could you, Reba?).

Anyway, God is more Just than man, and He tells us before the law there was no sin. To me, that isn't just the law of Moses, but God's moral law written in the conscience of man. So, when a child's conscience tells him something is wrong and he goes ahead and does it, it would be sin. If his parents tell him something is wrong, he must obey his parents...once he reaches the age where he has "accountability" as you say. God alone knows when we are accountable, and I don't think there is any certain age.

And you're absolutely correct in pointing out that Jesus told us to be like little children for such is the kingdom of heaven. If little children were held accountable by God then Jesus would never have said what He did.

We need not know it's sin to call it sin. You are talking about blame. Scripture does not say there was no sin before the law. It says sin was revived through the law. To be accountable to God means we will give account for everything we say and do, or not say and not do. How we judged others who did the same is what will judge us. So to be like little children who don't look to see the wrong in others but are trusting without suspicion is what Jesus means and why I use the name childeye.

 

[childeye]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

We were created with an ability to be able to make choice's for ourselves...These choices are not under the control of God...If He's will had been to create a race of robots that, merely did His bidding, He could have done that as well, after all, He's God...If man, had no choice but, to love God, because he (man) was under God's full control, then God could not have a "real" fellowship" with man due to the fact, man was forced to be obedient to God by virtue of not having "any" choice...Would you want some one to love you, because you forced them, or would it be better to have them, choose to love you?? Getting to the "sin nature subject now, which is "aligned" with our ability to choose...Because, God choose to create us with the freedom to be obedient or disobedient, there was "always" the possibility that we would "choose to sin" That was the "risk" God was willing to take, to have a "real" fellowship with His creation... Unfortunately , man choose to be disobedient, and thereby, sealed his own fate...God put forth "judgments" against both, Adam and Eve...And they both were cast out of the garden...Now, they had the, "knowledge of both good and evil available to them, combined with their, "ever present ability to choose..." Personal fellowship with God had been separated, and man is left to, not only fend for himself, but he's now in the position of being tempted to sin, not only by his own "sinful nature" (brought about by his disobedience) but is "susceptible" to the wiles of Satan...

Grubal God never gave us a choice to choose Him. This is not a date with God to see if we like Him. It is a betrothal as there is only one God. You might beleive that it is unfair of God to make you choose Him. God is God. You sound like the ugliest girl at the ball pondering if you should say yes to being asked to dance by the nicest and most compassionate boy. Just what would make you think God doesn't deserve you?

 

[reba]

Gen 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him

AMP
4And Abel brought of the firstborn of his flock and of the fat portions. And the Lord had respect and regard for Abel and for his offering, 5But for [a]Cain and his offering He had no respect or regard. So Cain was exceedingly angry and indignant, and he looked sad and depressed.
6And the Lord said to Cain, Why are you angry? And why do you look sad and depressed and dejected?
7If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin crouches at your door; its desire is for you, but you must master it

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

I see a difference between us and Adam.... Adam walked and talked with God then the fall (label it however you wish) We start out in the fallen state. Adam did not.

By fallen state what do you mean? That's another one of those terms I'd like to have cleared up.

This is how I see it. We know that sin and death entered the world on account of Adam's sin. Our bodies now face corruption and death, and even the ground is cursed. We see the flesh is weak and man quickly makes provision for it and sins.

 

[childeye]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

By fallen state what do you mean? That's another one of those terms I'd like to have cleared up.

This is how I see it. We know that sin and death entered the world on account of Adam's sin. Our bodies now face corruption and death, and even the ground is cursed. We see the flesh is weak and man quickly makes provision for it and sins.

Iniquity becomes sin as we draw lines for others we ourselves can't keep.

 

[mondar]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

That says the mother was in sin...not the baby.

David's mother was in sin? I think you confuse this with David's sin with Bathsheba.

 

[mondar]

Quote Originally Posted by Deuteronomy 24:16
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

Who is putting anyone to death? The penalty for Adams sin was death. Can you say anyone in the human race does not die?

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

"I see many people claiming man has a "sin nature" or they may even call it original sin."

What the Bible says is (Rom 8):

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Case closed: Man has a "Sin nature".

"is it simply an excuse for sin?"

It's certainly a REASON for sin - we SIN because we are SINNERS.

Simple as that.

LOL I don't think the case is quite closed yet.

We sin therefore we are sinners.
It's a matter of practice rather than an inborn thing, is it not?

If we walk in the flesh we fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
So, is it the flesh that you're calling our sin nature?

 

[childeye]

Gen 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him

AMP
4And Abel brought of the firstborn of his flock and of the fat portions. And the Lord had respect and regard for Abel and for his offering, 5But for [a]Cain and his offering He had no respect or regard. So Cain was exceedingly angry and indignant, and he looked sad and depressed.
6And the Lord said to Cain, Why are you angry? And why do you look sad and depressed and dejected?
7If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin crouches at your door; its desire is for you, but you must master it

Exactly, we must master "it", otherwise "it" (my bible says "his") is our master. We should not say it\he is not there and so conclude we sin freely. This is what smaller is always trying to convey. The same thing God is. That one cannot be free till they see there is a power trying to control us through deception. So my bible reads, His desire (will) is unto you. That Satan desires to be our god. He thinks if we choose him he is greater than God by majority vote.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

We were created with an ability to be able to make choice's for ourselves...These choices are not under the control of God...If He's will had been to create a race of robots that, merely did His bidding, He could have done that as well, after all, He's God...If man, had no choice but, to love God, because he (man) was under God's full control, then God could not have a "real" fellowship" with man due to the fact, man was forced to be obedient to God by virtue of not having "any" choice...Would you want some one to love you, because you forced them, or would it be better to have them, choose to love you?? Getting to the "sin nature subject now, which is "aligned" with our ability to choose...Because, God choose to create us with the freedom to be obedient or disobedient, there was "always" the possibility that we would "choose to sin" That was the "risk" God was willing to take, to have a "real" fellowship with His creation... Unfortunately , man choose to be disobedient, and thereby, sealed his own fate...God put forth "judgments" against both, Adam and Eve...And they both were cast out of the garden...Now, they had the, "knowledge of both good and evil available to them, combined with their, "ever present ability to choose..." Personal fellowship with God had been separated, and man is left to, not only fend for himself, but he's now in the position of being tempted to sin, not only by his own "sinful nature" (brought about by his disobedience) but is "susceptible" to the wiles of Satan...

As you know, I agree completely with you on the matter of freewill.

I'm wondering, do you see this "sin nature" as the flesh as Paul describes it in Romans 7? I guess I just have a problem with that term. Maybe because it's not in the KJV and I've read 'flesh' for too long.

For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

 

[glorydaz]

Quote Originally Posted by Deuteronomy 24:16
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

Who is putting anyone to death? The penalty for Adams sin was death. Can you say anyone in the human race does not die?

If you read those verses in context, you should see it relates to sin, and sin results in death.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

Paul teaches us that sin is in us, and that it's not us..

For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Right, and sin isn't in us until we sin.

 

[reba]

Exactly, we must master "it", otherwise "it" (my bible says "his") is our master. We should not say it\he is not there and so conclude we sin freely. This is what smaller is always trying to convey. The same thing God is. That one cannot be free till they see there is a power trying to control us through deception. So my bible reads, His desire (will) is unto you. That Satan desires to be our god. He thinks if we choose him he is greater than God by majority vote.

Man can only master sin Through the Blood of Christ. A mastered man kind does not free will.

 

[childeye]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

=glorydaz;587494]Right, and sin isn't in us until we sin.

Not exactly. Sin is not us as Eventide and smaller say. It's still with us in the flesh so to speak, always using the flesh and carnal ambitions to send men in a false direction. No one is saying we can't say no to sin. We're saying you won't say no if you don't see through the lie that sin relies upon to tempt men. So sin is present as you say. It lives through us when we submit to it I agree. This is usurping what should be living to God not a freewill, but a will that has chosen a self serving untrustworthy master who rules by lies over one who is trustworthy and rules by Truth. In other words Adam and Eve were fooled just like we all have been.

 

[childeye]

Man can only master sin Through the Blood of Christ. A mastered man kind does not free will.

If we look at the lambs blood, it wards off the destroyer that comes according to our own judgments of others. For out of Pharoahs own mouth and what he declared upon Israel is what came upon him. To see at the cross the Love of one who is innocent yet forgives those who would crucify him is the blood of Christ that wards off the destroyer of men. As I said vanity working hypocrisy is the problem. So we need Christ's intercession with God which is our only advocate. Our only access to hope in God's mercy. And as Jesus said the merciful will also receive mercy.

 

[glorydaz]

Eph 2:1 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins,
The fall of Adam is all about spiritual "Death." The verse above speaks of this descent of mankind into sin, or sin nature in the fall of Adam. Fortunately, the Christian is made alive, but that does not mean we all were not under the Adamic slavery to sin in the past. Notice the connection between Eph 2:1 and death with Romans 5.


Romans 5:12 Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned:--
This verse speaks of sin entering the world through Adam. If you remember the curse upon Adam was death. Adams eventual death was the consequence of sin. So in the verse above, death is passed on to all men, just as Adams sin is passed on to all men. We all now have that sin nature and death accompanies the sin that dwells in us.


Romans 5:18 So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life.
In this verse the human race is not judged because of our own moral infractions, but because we are in Adam. The one act of Adam brings "judgment... unto all men to condemnation." It is not our individual sins that bring condemnation, because we are already under condemnation. The individual sins might confirm our status as condemned already.


Eph 2:3 among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:--
Others have quoted verses which show mans nature that are good verses, but my own personal favorite is Ephesians 2:3. Notice the word "nature" occurs right in the verse. Our nature is not a blank slate. In fact the term "sin nature" is probably inadequate to describe the depravity of mans nature. We are "by nature children of wrath." We serve our father the devil (John 8). We do the desires of the flesh, and live in that lust of the flesh.

Understanding the nature of man, and how guilty we really are, is the beginning of knowing the gospel. Who then can be saved? One can be saved only when he bows before God and acknowledges how great his need of grace actually is. Salvation is by God's grace alone.

The problem is your interpretation of those verses doesn't square with the rest of Scripture. The Bible doesn't talk about spiritual death, or man's sinful nature.

Here we see Gentiles "do by nature the things contained in the law..."

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Here we see Jews by nature....and in Eph. 2:3, you'll note they lived in the lust of the flesh....doing the desires of the flesh and mind. That merely tells us that those who practice sin are the children of wrath. That has nothing to do with any sinful nature of man.

We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

So if we followed your reasoning on these verses, then a believer would be incapable of sin, for the Word says we are "dead to sin".

God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

I don't understand how not having access to the tree of life has anything to do with it. I agree we are weak in the flesh but this has nothing to do with anything either. As I said the corruption is iniquity through hypocrisy because of the knowledge of good and evil. So it is that the blood of the slain lamb was put around the doors and the windows to protect one's house from the destroyer who comes according to what our own mouths say.

I would only be able to speculate about the tree of life. It's mentioned in the Proverbs as Wisdom and Righteousness and in Revelations. My thought is that only those who come by faith will have access to it...as here.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

No longer having access to God, man needed to be reconciled to God by Christ's death, and raised into Life in Him.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

We need not know it's sin to call it sin. You are talking about blame. Scripture does not say there was no sin before the law. It says sin was revived through the law. To be accountable to God means we will give account for everything we say and do, or not say and not do. How we judged others who did the same is what will judge us. So to be like little children who don't look to see the wrong in others but are trusting without suspicion is what Jesus means and why I use the name childeye.

God's law is eternal...He never changes. Shall not the Judge of the whole earth do right?
Sin is disobedience of God's law. You can't disobey if you don't know.

1Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin. He that hateth me hateth my Father also. If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

David's mother was in sin? I think you confuse this with David's sin with Bathsheba.

No. All men and women sin...babies do not. Cute comeback, but I'm not confusing the issue, you are. ;)

 

[childeye]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

=glorydaz;587662]God's law is eternal...He never changes. Shall not the Judge of the whole earth do right?

Of course, but did not Jesus make all the accusers of the adultress go away saying he had nothing against her, and that was his judgment?

Sin is disobedience of God's law. You can't disobey if you don't know.

Men are still held accountable whether they've read the laws or not. All men have sin. That's why Jesus was able to get rid of the accusers. And the accusers knew the law, or at least thought they did.