Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another excuse?

[mythunderstood]

Romans 7
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

 

[childeye]

Romans 7
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

A perfectly appropriate scripture for this os.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

A rose by any other name -

"So, is it the flesh that you're calling our sin nature?"

"Flesh" is ONE term Paul uses for it."

Others are "the OLD man", the "Body of this death", The "Body of sin", the "Sin that dwelleth in me".

And of course Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is "deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked:" who can know it?

I know it. Apparently you don't.

 

[glorydaz]

Man can only master sin Through the Blood of Christ. A mastered man kind does not free will.

We're mastered by Jesus and we still commit sin. How do you explain that?

Please tell me how these verses fit in with your understanding of freewill.

Do you think any guile was found in our Lord?
Why did He say, "Ye would not" instead of you were not able or you could not?

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Why does Jesus tell us to "come...take my yoke upon you and learn of me" if He didn't think we could?

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

If a "mastered mankind" has no freewill then God can't hold them responsible for their sins...and we know he does.

Here we see men choosing other gods.

Go and cry unto the gods which ye have chosen; let them deliver you in the time of your tribulation.

We see them choosing their own way.

He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: A rose by any other name -

"So, is it the flesh that you're calling our sin nature?"

"Flesh" is ONE term Paul uses for it."

Others are "the OLD man", the "Body of this death", The "Body of sin", the "Sin that dwelleth in me".

And of course Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is "deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked:" who can know it?

I know it. Apparently you don't.

I know we're dead to sin, and yet I see sin coming from believers every single day.

For some reason people forget the other side of the coin.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Re: A rose by any other name -

"I know we're dead to sin, and yet I see sin coming from believers every single day."

SO it's a REALLY GOOD THING that we have a Savior, don'cha know!!!!

I suspect YOU sin every day yourself - it's your human nature to do so. I do also.

I DID notice that you reversed my earlier statement - let me put it RIGHT again.

We SIN - because we ARE "sinners". ANd in the case of Christians, we DON'T "Walk in the Spirit" perfectly, and so the "Deeds of the flesh" are still evident.

Simple as that.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

Of course, but did not Jesus make all the accusers of the adultress go away saying he had nothing against her, and that was his judgment?

Jesus said that because He had not come to judge but to save. He will judge later.

Men are still held accountable whether they've read the laws or not. All men have sin. That's why Jesus was able to get rid of the accusers. And the accusers knew the law, or at least thought they did.

Men have God's laws written in their conscience. A baby or a child is not held accountable for what they do not understand....thus theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Also, believe it or not, many men do follow their conscience...they are moral and upright. They still need to come to a saving faith in Jesus because when they come to the light, any sins of the heart will be revealed to them. Just look at Nicodemus. He was not saved until Peter came to him, but he was not a slave to sin.

In the same way, those who have been born again are not slaves to the flesh, but they still sin. Sometimes I wonder if Christians really understand how the Bible was written. Romans 1 is a great example. They can claim all men are horrible reprobates when they need only open their eyes and look around to see that is an exageration and made in comparison to God. This "slave to sin" thing is exactly the same. A point is being made in a forceful way, but they refuse to check out their blanket statements with the whole Word of God. I don't get it.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: A rose by any other name -

"I know we're dead to sin, and yet I see sin coming from believers every single day."

SO it's a REALLY GOOD THING that we have a Savior, don'cha know!!!!

I suspect YOU sin every day yourself - it's your human nature to do so. I do also.

I DID notice that you reversed my earlier statement - let me put it RIGHT again.

We SIN - because we ARE "sinners". ANd in the case of Christians, we DON'T "Walk in the Spirit" perfectly, and so the "Deeds of the flesh" are still evident.

Simple as that.

Well, you believe man has a sin nature, and I believe man has a human nature.

Let me ask you this. Jesus was fully God and fully man...yet without sin.
What happened to His sin nature?

 

[childeye]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

=glorydaz;587678]Jesus said that because He had not come to judge but to save. He will judge later.

Yes and he will judge according to what measure we judge others as his judgment shows with the adultress.

Men have God's laws written in their conscience. A baby or a child is not held accountable for what they do not understand....thus theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Also, believe it or not, many men do follow their conscience...they are moral and upright. They still need to come to a saving faith in Jesus because when they come to the light, any sins of the heart will be revealed to them. Just look at Nicodemus. He was not saved until Peter came to him, but he was not a slave to sin.

In the same way, those who have been born again are not slaves to the flesh, but they still sin. Sometimes I wonder if Christians really understand how the Bible was written. Romans 1 is a great example. They can claim all men are horrible reprobates when they need only open their eyes and look around to see that is an exageration and made in comparison to God. This "slave to sin" thing is exactly the same. A point is being made in a forceful way, but they refuse to check out their blanket statements with the whole Word of God. I don't get it.

I would not disagree with most of what you've said here. It just seems like you turn everything into be good because you can be if you just decide to. That's what I get from your discourse. Even the conscience is God.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

We're mastered by Jesus and we still commit sin. How do you explain that?

Please tell me how these verses fit in with your understanding of freewill.

Do you think any guile was found in our Lord?
Why did He say, "Ye would not" instead of you were not able or you could not?


Why does Jesus tell us to "come...take my yoke upon you and learn of me" if He didn't think we could?


If a "mastered mankind" has no freewill then God can't hold them responsible for their sins...and we know he does.

Here we see men choosing other gods.

We see them choosing their own way.

AMEN!!!

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

Yes and he will judge according to what measure we judge others as his judgment shows with the adultress.


I would not disagree with most of what you've said here. It just seems like you turn everything into be good because you can be if you just decide to. That's what I get from your discourse. Even the conscience is God.

One can be good...being good, however, doesn't take away sin. Thus the need to be born of God.

Look at Cornelius. There are many such men who live a moral life and follow their conscience. He was a man who feared God....before Peter preached the Gospel and told him the way to salvation by faith in Jesus Christ.

There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

 

[childeye]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

=glorydaz;587771]One can be good...being good, however, doesn't take away sin. Thus the need to be born of God.

Look at Cornelius. There are many such men who live a moral life and follow their conscience. He was a man who feared God....before Peter preached the Gospel and told him the way to salvation by faith in Jesus Christ.

I agree there are men of God, but you seem to not want to acknowledge that something happened to mankind after eating the fruit. Several on this thread have said that we all die, just as God said we would if we ate of the knowledge of good and evil. You seem to be saying that death was not because of the affects of the spiritual knowledge on a carnal being, but because it was simply a penalty as a deterrent for disobeying God. Hence you are using freewill to support personal responsibility.

Some may have received more of the worst lot of sin, simply by circumstance of being born in a certain environment. Please note I have shown you that Jesus judged that the adultress was not stoned accordng to the law as Jesus got rid of her accusers. I am not implying he was saying it was okay to commit adultery for clearly he said go and don't sin anymore. But here is another example of the judgments of Jesus. The prostitute who kissed and wept over his feet washing them with her tears and drying them with her hair. The pharisees who wouldn't even touch the woman because they were so clean according to their lawful judgment never could have forced such a spirit of Love out of themselves and Jesus proves this by saying, those who are forgiven much, love much and those who are forgiven little, love little. Therefore those who have sinned the least are not as capable of loving the Master as much as those who sinned a lot. Then Jesus says because her love is great her sins are forgiven. Food for thought are the words of Jesus.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

I agree there are men of God, but you seem to not want to acknowledge that something happened to mankind after eating the fruit. Several on this thread have said that we all die, just as God said we would if we ate of the knowledge of good and evil. You seem to be saying that death was not because of the affects of the spiritual knowledge on a carnal being, but because it was simply a penalty as a deterrent for disobeying God. Hence you are using freewill to support personal responsibility.

Some may have received more of the worst lot of sin, simply by circumstance of being born in a certain environment. Please note I have shown you that Jesus judged that the adultress was not stoned accoridng to the law as Jesus got rid of her accusers. I am not implying he was saying it was okay to commit adultery for clearly he said go and don't sin anymore. But here is another example of the judgments of Jesus. The prostitute who kissed and wept over his feet washing them with her tears and drying them with her hair. The pharisees who wouldn't even touch the woman because they were so clean according to their lawful judgment never could have forced such a spirit of Love out of themselves and Jesus proves this by saying, those who are forgiven much love much and those who are forgiven little love little. Therefore those who have sinned the least are not as capable of loving the Master as much as those who sinned a lot. Then Jesus says because her love is great her sins are forgiven. Food for thought are the words of Jesus.

Jesus was rebuking the pharisees as being hypocrites, for they were guilty of hidden sins.

I know quite well the love of Jesus. We are discussing the nature of man. Cornelius was one of those unsaved reprobates you have been claiming are totally blind to the goodness of God.

As to the portion in red...you write, "Hence you are using freewill to support personal responsibility." That is my point exactly. Without freewill, man would have an excuse for sinning. With freewill, man must accept responsibility for his disobedience to God. I doubt anyone wants to stand before God and say, "Gee, I couldn't help it I was blinded and deceived."

 

[childeye]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

=glorydaz;587826]Jesus was rebuking the pharisees as being hypocrites, for they were guilty of hidden sins.

Yes agreed, hidden to them not God.

I know quite well the love of Jesus. We are discussing the nature of man. Cornelius was one of those unsaved reprobates you have been claiming are totally blind to the goodness of God.

You are being unfair by saying I claimed Cornelius was a reprobate totally blind to the goodness of God. Why dost thou persecute me claiming I said something I never said?

As to the portion in red...you write, "Hence you are using freewill to support personal responsibility." That is my point exactly.

Yes I know this. But Love is what makes a person act responsibly towards others.

Without freewill, man would have an excuse for sinning.

But that's the mentality of the Pharisees. You'd better correct Jesus who submitted to the cross and said forgive them they know not what they do.

With freewill, man must accept responsibility for his disobedience to God.

But that's the mindset of the Pharisees. Then you'd better correct Jesus who said the sick need a doctor.

I doubt anyone wants to stand before God and say, "Gee, I couldn't help it I was blinded and deceived."

That's exactly what some will say in all honesty before God admitting to the weakness of the flesh. The hypocritical Pharisees said the same thing you are saying to which Jesus replied, if you said you were blind you would have no sin, but because you say we see, your sin remains. And so do you think it is wiser to say, I meant to sin with all knowledge that I was denying you as my Master Oh God because my will was always free to do with as I please?

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

You are being unfair by saying I claimed Cornelius was a reprobate totally blind to the goodness of God. Why dost thou persecute me claiming I said something I never said?

Haven't you consistantly claimed that unsaved men fit into the category of those in Rom. 1 because they have some false image of God? Cornelius was unsaved at the time of the verse I presented.

But that's the mentality of the Pharisees. You'd better correct Jesus who submitted to the cross and said forgive them they know not what they do.

But that's the mindset of the Pharisees. Then you'd better correct Jesus who said the sick need a doctor.

That's exactly what some will say in all honesty before God admitting to the weakness of the flesh. The hypocritical Pharisees said the same thing you are saying to which Jesus replied, if you said you were blind you would have no sin, but because you say we see, your sin remains. And so do you think it is wiser to say, I meant to sin with all knowledge that I was denying you as my Master Oh God because my will was always free to do with as I please?

You have no idea what you're talking about. Having a freewill has nothing to do with the pharisees, and your attempts to make it sound like you know what Jesus meant when He said, "You know not what you do," shows me you still require the milk of the Word.

 

[childeye]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

=glorydaz;587933]Haven't you consistantly claimed that unsaved men fit into the category of those in Rom. 1 because they have some false image of God? Cornelius was unsaved at the time of the verse I presented.

No I claim all unsaved men fit into the category of unsaved men through a false image if god. That is to say men who have Godly Love believe in the revelation of God, they also will believe in the Christ. For example Jesus said Abraham saw him and believed. So also there were other men who knew "The Word Of God" in their hearts. If you recall we had agreed Romans 1 was a generalization.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Having a freewill has nothing to do with the pharisees, and your attempts to make it sound like you know what Jesus meant when He said, "You know not what you do," shows me you still require the milk of the Word.

Well then give the baby his bottle and tell me what you think Jesus meant by saying, "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do",and "the sick need a doctor".

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

No I claim all unsaved men fit into the category of unsaved men through a false image if god. That is to say men who have Godly Love believe in the revelation of God, they also will believe in the Christ. For example Jesus said Abraham saw him and believed. So also there were other men who knew "The Word Of God" in their hearts. If you recall we had agreed Romans 1 was a generalization.


Well then give the baby his bottle and tell me what you think Jesus meant by saying, "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do",and "the sick need a doctor".

Childeye, what are you talking about?? Yikes!!

 

[childeye]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

Childeye, what are you talking about?? Yikes!!

The baby wants his bottle!!!! WAAAAAAAAH!!!!

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

The baby wants his bottle!!!! WAAAAAAAAH!!!!

You got to get it straight man...To much "abstract" thinking is not a good for you...OK??

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

No I claim all unsaved men fit into the category of unsaved men through a false image if god.

Cornelius didn't have a false image of God, and yet he was unsaved. Peter came to preach the Gospel that the way to salvation was by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Well then give the baby his bottle and tell me what you think Jesus meant by saying, "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do",and "the sick need a doctor".

Jesus was not saying people have a false image of God, that's for sure. He was not giving man an excuse for sin, He was praying for His enemies as He taught. He was voicing what He was doing...not just for those around Him but for all of us. All our sins were laid on Him that day.

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

He was speaking of His work on the cross...the forgiveness of sins.

He was making it clear He was fulfilling prophecy and was the Messiah.

They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

We saw the unrepentant sinner and the repentant sinner on either side, with Christ as the mediator between God and man, and the repentant thief was told he would be with Him in paradise.