Does Sunday morning church need all the showmanship and gimmicks?

[BigSodaExposer]

http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists...ll-this-glitter-showmanship-and-gimmickry.php

I understand what this article is saying. It was through the KJV that I found Christ. Going to churches never did anything for me personally. But I don't see anything wrong with going for the fellowship/worship/assembly.

I think most believe they are getting a credit for heaven by going there. As if the public glory of man means something to God. Christ warned against this. Public prayer VS private prayer. Mathew 6:5-6 "5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."


So in other words, the camera doesnt stop rolling when you leave or enter church. The devil doesn't stop tempting, the holy spirit doesnt stop guiding.

I will be honest though, most of the churches in east tn I ever went to, don't have the problems in this article. But some do, especially the bigger ones. I chose to personally seek the truth and read the KJV myself. I don't think this is for everybody. But It did give me an understanding of Christianity far beyond anything I ever got anywhere else. Including watching hundreds of hours of youtube videos searching for the truth.


I could write some very detailed articles about the devil and music, and its deceptive power. But people still wouldn't believe it.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Me, I just came back from a Bible camp where there were lights and music during worship. Here's a picture of the auditorium we all gathered in for evening worship before being dismissed for the day: View attachment 4519

I get what the article is saying and agree to some extent (worshiping God certainly isn't about awesome music), but the Spirit of God was strong and it was an amazing environment to be in. Surrounded by hundreds of believers and edifying one another in spirit and in truth.
We also had small group times after each sermon, which allowed us to discuss what we learned as a group and interact in a personal way. One night after worship my group and I stood in the middle of the auditorium in a big group hug crying and praising God for a long time after everyone else had walked out.

Basically, the camp featured some things the article would call "gimmicky" (lights, big auditorium, over a thousand people, modern praise and worship), but the way this camp does it, it's not at all an impersonal experience. It's more spiritual and alive and real than most churches I've been in.

Now, I love my church, I love the people there, I love attending, I love the Bible study class I attend on Sunday mornings there. My church isn't fancy. And it certainly doesn't have to be, because that's not what praising God is about. But camp is an experience that I honestly wish church was like all the time. Not the "gimmicks". I don't care if my church has those. But the overall spirit and openness and unity.

The camp I went to had "gimmicks", but they didn't put the emphasis on them--does that make sense?

 

[BigSodaExposer]

Me, I just came back from a Bible camp where there were lights and music during worship. Here's a picture of the auditorium we all gathered in for evening worship before being dismissed for the day: View attachment 4519

I get what the article is saying and agree to some extent (worshiping God certainly isn't about awesome music), but the Spirit of God was strong and it was an amazing environment to be in. Surrounded by hundreds of believers and edifying one another in spirit and in truth.
We also had small group times after each sermon, which allowed us to discuss what we learned as a group and interact in a personal way. One night after worship my group and I stood in the middle of the auditorium in a big group hug crying and praising God for a long time after everyone else had walked out.

Basically, the camp featured some things the article would call "gimmicky" (lights, big auditorium, over a thousand people, modern praise and worship), but the way this camp does it, it's not at all an impersonal experience. It's more spiritual and alive and real than most churches I've been in.

Now, I love my church, I love the people there, I love attending, I love the Bible study class I attend on Sunday mornings there. My church isn't fancy. And it certainly doesn't have to be, because that's not what praising God is about. But camp is an experience that I honestly wish church was like all the time. Not the "gimmicks". I don't care if my church has those. But the overall spirit and openness and unity.

The camp I went to had "gimmicks", but they didn't put the emphasis on them--does that make sense?

Sounds like you have a good experience there brother. thanks for posting that pic.

 

[jonahmano]

The problem is when the church becomes extreme organisational. Christ has called us to freedom and not for over discipline. These guys have all kinds of ministries - partircularly transport ministry, admin ministry, security ministry, music ministry, pastoral ministry, intercession ministry, video ministry, audio ministry, children's ministry

But they do seldom have

Visiting the sick ministry :tongue
Helping the needy ministry

So you can understand to what extent the organized devil is working in the church

 

[Obadiah]

I understand what this article is saying. It was through the KJV that I found Christ. Going to churches never did anything for me personally. But I don't see anything wrong with going for the fellowship/worship/assembly.

That could be because the real purpose for a church worship service is to worship, not to evangelize. Sure, evangelism can be part of it sometimes, but it's not the main reason we should be going to church. Much like you, I also did not find Christ through a worship service and I honestly can't think of anyone I know who did. I'm sure some did, but I can't remember them. I found Him through the word of God coupled with the real testimony of the life changing effects that accepting Christ had on a friend.

I think most believe they are getting a credit for heaven by going there. ...

I'm really positive this is very true for some. Not sure I would make the judgement that it's true of most, but I'm sure it's true for at least some. Probably depends on the church and the kind of teaching they give.

I could write some very detailed articles about the devil and music, and its deceptive power. But people still wouldn't believe it.

I would be VERY careful about condemning all music like this. Let's not forget that scripture talks of using music to worship God. I wouldn't want to be the one answering to God for condemning a form of worship and giving credit for it to Satan.

As for the title of your thread; I would say no, churches don't need showmanship and gimmicks. But that doesn't mean these things are condemned either. We are told that what we do, we should do well. So if person's gift and place in the Body of Christ is to sing, play an instrument, or whatever it should be done to the best of his ability. This could be called good "showmanship" by some but it is exactly the way God wants us to do the things he has given us gifts and talents to do. It really boils down to the reason the things are being done (or used). Is it being done with the intent to bring glory to God and inspire those in attendance to worship the Lord? Or is the real intent in the heart of those participating to show off their own talents and draw attention to themselves at God's expense?

 

[Obadiah]

...
But they do seldom have

Visiting the sick ministry :tongue
Helping the needy ministry

So you can understand to what extent the organized devil is working in the church

The church I work at has these. So has every church I've ever attended.

 

[cftx1]

NO,it doesn't need all the showmanship and gimmicks. What it does need is the presence of Holy Spirit. It needs a sermon that gets to a Bible centered point of action or thought. The sermon delivered in a timely manner by a person who is passionate about what GOD wants to say through HIS WORD. The atmosphere should be able to point one to GOD and ALL that HE is. The music and songs should make one ponder Gods awesomeness. One should leave feeling that they are not alone and that they are loved by GOD AND HIS CHILDREN.

 

[jonahmano]

The church I work at has these. So has every church I've ever attended.

Great that your church has but not the most of the churches. I have quite well researched on this. Do you mean church staff have to be frisked in and out just as supermarket staff?

 

[BigSodaExposer]

That could be because the real purpose for a church worship service is to worship, not to evangelize. Sure, evangelism can be part of it sometimes, but it's not the main reason we should be going to church. Much like you, I also did not find Christ through a worship service and I honestly can't think of anyone I know who did. I'm sure some did, but I can't remember them. I found Him through the word of God coupled with the real testimony of the life changing effects that accepting Christ had on a friend.

I'm really positive this is very true for some. Not sure I would make the judgement that it's true of most, but I'm sure it's true for at least some. Probably depends on the church and the kind of teaching they give.


I would be VERY careful about condemning all music like this. Let's not forget that scripture talks of using music to worship God. I wouldn't want to be the one answering to God for condemning a form of worship and giving credit for it to Satan.

As for the title of your thread; I would say no, churches don't need showmanship and gimmicks. But that doesn't mean these things are condemned either. We are told that what we do, we should do well. So if person's gift and place in the Body of Christ is to sing, play an instrument, or whatever it should be done to the best of his ability. This could be called good "showmanship" by some but it is exactly the way God wants us to do the things he has given us gifts and talents to do. It really boils down to the reason the things are being done (or used). Is it being done with the intent to bring glory to God and inspire those in attendance to worship the Lord? Or is the real intent in the heart of those participating to show off their own talents and draw attention to themselves at God's expense?

Thanks everyone that replied. No thats not what I meant, Sorry if I sounded like I was implying that. Music is not of the devil. It can be used in praise of the father. As long as its not about you and is about God like others have said. I was just saying it seems raw and unplugged, is more around the lowly meek atmosphere of Jesus Christ. Technology is not evil either, it is the corrupt minds of men that make it evil. Like money. With that said, what is your take on Facebook?

 

[Obadiah]

...Do you mean church staff have to be frisked in and out just as supermarket staff?

I haven't got a clue why you would ask this. Of course not!

 

[Obadiah]

...With that said, what is your take on Facebook?

My take on Facebook? To me it's simply a place where I talk to friends and have reconnected with people I haven't seen for years, many of them people I've lost track of and not seen since our school days. Now if you're relating Facebook to this thread, maybe referring to people sitting in church playing on Facebook on their phones instead of worshiping, well I've seen that a couple of times and I take a pretty dim view of that. Of course it's no worse than the guy sitting there with his mind focused just on the football game and wondering what the score is, all the time resenting God for interfering with his Sunday morning TV watching. Everything has it's proper time and place but the worship service isn't the place for facebook or for your phone at all.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists...ll-this-glitter-showmanship-and-gimmickry.php

I understand what this article is saying. It was through the KJV that I found Christ. Going to churches never did anything for me personally. But I don't see anything wrong with going for the fellowship/worship/assembly.

I think most believe they are getting a credit for heaven by going there. As if the public glory of man means something to God. Christ warned against this. Public prayer VS private prayer. Mathew 6:5-6 "5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."


So in other words, the camera doesnt stop rolling when you leave or enter church. The devil doesn't stop tempting, the holy spirit doesnt stop guiding.

I will be honest though, most of the churches in east tn I ever went to, don't have the problems in this article. But some do, especially the bigger ones. I chose to personally seek the truth and read the KJV myself. I don't think this is for everybody. But It did give me an understanding of Christianity far beyond anything I ever got anywhere else. Including watching hundreds of hours of youtube videos searching for the truth.


I could write some very detailed articles about the devil and music, and its deceptive power. But people still wouldn't believe it.

I think that this would be an issue of the heart. Are expressions of worship known to contemporary culture bad? No, I don't think so, but they any public worship service can lead to hypocrisy.

Instead of looking to others to try and point out the speck in their eyes, it is important that we examine ourselves.

Look to your own heart, and examine your motivations.

P.S. And beware KJV Onlyism.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

The problem is when the church becomes extreme organisational. Christ has called us to freedom and not for over discipline. These guys have all kinds of ministries - partircularly transport ministry, admin ministry, security ministry, music ministry, pastoral ministry, intercession ministry, video ministry, audio ministry, children's ministry

But they do seldom have

Visiting the sick ministry :tongue
Helping the needy ministry

So you can understand to what extent the organized devil is working in the church

God is not a God of disorder, but of peace. Paul taught the Corinthian church that, "all things should be done decently and in order."

Certainly churches should have the ministries for visiting the sick and helping the needy (my church does in addition to those other things).

However, I think you should be awfully careful not to falsely attribute to the work of the devil, that which might be the work of God. Jesus made strong warnings about that.

 

[BigSodaExposer]

My take on Facebook? To me it's simply a place where I talk to friends and have reconnected with people I haven't seen for years, many of them people I've lost track of and not seen since our school days. Now if you're relating Facebook to this thread, maybe referring to people sitting in church playing on Facebook on their phones instead of worshiping, well I've seen that a couple of times and I take a pretty dim view of that. Of course it's no worse than the guy sitting there with his mind focused just on the football game and wondering what the score is, all the time resenting God for interfering with his Sunday morning TV watching. Everything has it's proper time and place but the worship service isn't the place for facebook or for your phone at all.

Thanks for the reply. I do not currently use Facebook. I have a few times in the past though. I see some on there seeking the glory of men. Some praise the father with it. I know what you mean about twiddling your thumbs through a church service. I have been there before. Well then let me ask you this. What is the difference between a worship service, and reading the bible yourself? I am starting to see going to church as a connection or acknowledgement to God. But church goers cannot say I am wrong for just reading the bible. I can't say they are wrong for going to church and not reading the bible. What is a church? A building or house of worship? Or the body of Christ/ bride of christ?

What is worship?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Thanks for the reply. I do not currently use Facebook. I have a few times in the past though. I see some on there seeking the glory of men. Some praise the father with it. I know what you mean about twiddling your thumbs through a church service. I have been there before. Well then let me ask you this. What is the difference between a worship service, and reading the bible yourself? I am starting to see going to church as a connection or acknowledgement to God. But church goers cannot say I am wrong for just reading the bible. I can't say they are wrong for going to church and not reading the bible. What is a church? A building or house of worship? Or the body of Christ/ bride of christ?

What is worship?

Just reading your Bible on your own should lead you to fellowship in some capacity (internet doesn't count). A house church or local church congregation.

not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. Hebrews 10:25 (ESV)

And in case you are wondering with the KJV says.

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. (KJV)

 

[BigSodaExposer]

God is not a God of disorder, but of peace. Paul taught the Corinthian church that, "all things should be done decently and in order."

Certainly churches should have the ministries for visiting the sick and helping the needy (my church does in addition to those other things).

However, I think you should be awfully careful not to falsely attribute to the work of the devil, that which might be the work of God. Jesus made strong warnings about that.

As in the pharisees accusing Jesus's works or power coming from Beelzebub? Your comment is discouraging to me, makes me fear I am walking in a minefield. Even if it is truth in scripture. Yet there is nothing more righteous than the truth yes? An in truth, I tell of how/when the spirit entered me. If I lie about that, than I am not in righteousness. I can't win here.

 

[Obadiah]

Thanks for the reply. I do not currently use Facebook. I have a few times in the past though. I see some on there seeking the glory of men. Some praise the father with it. I know what you mean about twiddling your thumbs through a church service. I have been there before. Well then let me ask you this. What is the difference between a worship service, and reading the bible yourself? I am starting to see going to church as a connection or acknowledgement to God. But church goers cannot say I am wrong for just reading the bible. I can't say they are wrong for going to church and not reading the bible. What is a church? A building or house of worship? Or the body of Christ/ bride of christ?

What is worship?

I've got to head off to work in a few so will have to write more later. But just off hand I don't see reading the bible and going to church as the same thing at all. We are told in scripture not to forsake gathering together (fellowshipping) with other believers. Reading the Bible by yourself doesn't do this. Also, we are supposed to study Gods' word to know what He has to say to us. In a worship service there is actually very little study of scripture being done. They really are two different things, both of which are scriptural and necessary. Maybe sort of like (and I haven't put a lot of thought into this analogy so don't take it to seriously...) but maybe it's like the difference between reading the owners manual for your car and driving your car. You can do either one without ever doing the other, but things will work out better if you do both.

As for Facebook, I think the experience of it is much like the real world. It varies widely and is mainly influenced by who is on your friends list and whose posts you see. Much like real life, your experience with it is largely dictated by who you hang around with.

 

[BigSodaExposer]

Just reading your Bible on your own should lead you to fellowship in some capacity (internet doesn't count). A house church or local church congregation.

not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. Hebrews 10:25 (ESV)

And in case you are wondering with the KJV says.

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. (KJV)

Thanks for the reply, but why do you feel the internet doesn't count? Many churches today have integrated the internet/have a website. Christ never segregated his disciples into denominations. Why should I be a member of a man made church? Anyone that is in Christ is your brother or sister.

 

[BigSodaExposer]

I've got to head off to work in a few so will have to write more later. But just off hand I don't see reading the bible and going to church as the same thing at all. We are told in scripture not to forsake gathering together (fellowshipping) with other believers. Reading the Bible by yourself doesn't do this. Also, we are supposed to study Gods' word to know what He has to say to us. In a worship service there is actually very little study of scripture being done. They really are two different things, both of which are scriptural and necessary. Maybe sort of like (and I haven't put a lot of thought into this analogy so don't take it to seriously...) but maybe it's like the difference between reading the owners manual for your car and driving your car. You can do either one without ever doing the other, but things will work out better if you do both.

As for Facebook, I think the experience of it is much like the real world. It varies widely and is mainly influenced by who is on your friends list and whose posts you see. Much like real life, your experience with it is largely dictated by who you hang around with.

Ok thanks, good post.

 

[Obadiah]

Thanks for the reply, but why do you feel the internet doesn't count? Many churches today have integrated the internet/have a website. Christ never segregated his disciples into denominations. Why should I be a member of a man made church? Anyone that is in Christ is your brother or sister.

People organize the church, and people aren't perfect. If you are going to look for the perfect church, you will die of old age never having had the advantage of good Christian fellowship. Sometimes we need to forgive the bad and take advantage of the good.