Does the Bible speak of the popularly known "Hell" of today?

[beartheweak]

While my question seems to imply a bias that favors Universalism, I am actually completely undecided and confused.

Bear with me because I will probably raise objections to the answers here (to all sides of the debate), but it doesn't mean I agree with the opposing views or disagree with you because, as I mentioned, I am completely confused and just want to find the truth. As one who follows where the truth leads, I have been an atheist, agnostic, deist, and Christian back and forth and back and forth for the last few years. It's such a dramatic, real, and tiring war. First of all, CAN ANYONE RELATE TO THIS?

It seems that 99% of "truth-seekers" are already made up and think all other opposing views are "obviously" incorrect (when they haven't even done all the in-depth investigation into the opposing theories as they possibly could have). Sorry that this bothers me, but I just find it hard to trust that someone is really a seeker of truth if they don't have testimony of long durations of time in tears, fright, stress, and emotional pain in honestly trying to determine the truth. Determining the afterlife is an important question- what gives this question any importance is "How do I go to the right place, if there is more than one destination?"... For those of you that know, it can be a scary thing knowing that you will die sometime within the next century, and for eternity your fate could be made up! This is why I want to know the truth. At the moment, I will hesitantly admit that Christianity seems false based on the differences of Hell/Heaven in the OT and the NT. I do not desire this at all. I know how hopeless atheism/agnosticism/Deism (and most other religions) are. Christianity honestly seems like the best bet. I just want to be sure that I am right about that.

All that said, if you are of the same mindset as me, a desperate, honest seeker of truth... not looking to back some agenda, but to really help me realize the truth... then you are welcome to participate.

Sheol is mentioned in the OT. Every time it appears to be a reference to a place of the dead. There is no reference to this being a place of torment or place of eternal residence. Even some of the OT saints admitted they would be "in" Sheol. This seems increasingly more apparent to me after reading hundreds of views on forums and comments to blog posts, etc. It seems as though Hell (as we know it today as an eternal place of torment) is not mentioned in the OT. In fact, Heaven isn't really even mentioned in the OT! However, there are a few indirect references to Heaven (such as Psalm 23:6, "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever") - which is relieving.

My main (two-part) question, for right now, is can anyone explain why the mainstream, Christian interpretation of Hell is not evident in the OT, and why there are scarce references to any hope for OT believers (e.g. Heaven)?

Additionally, in direct opposition of the conclusion to the question mentioned above, how do Universalists explain how they either believe in Hell as being temporal or Hell being non-existant when examining what was said in Matthew 26:24, "The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born." Surely it is better to be born, if all roads eventually lead to Heaven. Even if you subscribe to the idea of a temporal suffering in Hell (or purification process), Judas (in this example) is only temporarily suffering in Hell for the sins committed in life (most specifically turning over Jesus to the Pharisees)... but then he will spend the rest of eternity in Heaven, right? So why does Jesus say it would be better for Judas if he had not been born? It is obviously better to be born and end up in Heaven (even if temporarily suffering in Hell) than it is to not be born.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hell is not the final destination of the wicked. The lake of fire is the final destination of the wicked. Even hell itself will be thrown into the lake of fire:

"13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:13-14 NIV1984)

In Matthew 25, Jesus speaks of the wicked dead being judged and then thrown into the lake of fire:

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Matthew 25:41 NIV1984)

The second death is the eternal fate of the wicked, not hades (hell, the grave).

From here it's argued that since the resurrection, the wicked dead are in hell awaiting the Judgment, while the righteous dead are in Paradise awaiting the Day of Judgment.

 

[beartheweak]

Hell is not the final destination of the wicked. The lake of fire is the final destination of the wicked. Even hell itself will be thrown into the lake of fire:

"13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:13-14 NIV1984)

In Matthew 25, Jesus speaks of the wicked dead being judged and then thrown into the lake of fire:

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Matthew 25:41 NIV1984)

The second death is the eternal fate of the wicked, not hades (hell, the grave).

From here it's argued that since the resurrection, the wicked dead are in hell awaiting the Judgment, while the righteous dead are in Paradise awaiting the Day of Judgment.

Thank you, I think I see the connection between the OT and NT in terms of a temporary "holding" place after death (also http://www.gotquestions.org/sheol-hades-hell.html ). OT/NT uses the terms Sheol, Hades, Tartarus, Gehenna which, as far as I can tell are referring to a state of unconsciousness and is a place for all the dead to wait (righteous and unrighteous). From here, (please correct me if I'm wrong) on judgement day, the righteous will be raised for 1,000 years on the New Earth before going to the New Heaven and the unrighteous will be sent to the "lake of fire" (the second death)? What is your take on that?

Any Universalists able to answer my other question?

 

[JLB]

While my question seems to imply a bias that favors Universalism, I am actually completely undecided and confused.

Bear with me because I will probably raise objections to the answers here (to all sides of the debate), but it doesn't mean I agree with the opposing views or disagree with you because, as I mentioned, I am completely confused and just want to find the truth. As one who follows where the truth leads, I have been an atheist, agnostic, deist, and Christian back and forth and back and forth for the last few years. It's such a dramatic, real, and tiring war. First of all, CAN ANYONE RELATE TO THIS?

It seems that 99% of "truth-seekers" are already made up and think all other opposing views are "obviously" incorrect (when they haven't even done all the in-depth investigation into the opposing theories as they possibly could have). Sorry that this bothers me, but I just find it hard to trust that someone is really a seeker of truth if they don't have testimony of long durations of time in tears, fright, stress, and emotional pain in honestly trying to determine the truth. Determining the afterlife is an important question- what gives this question any importance is "How do I go to the right place, if there is more than one destination?"... For those of you that know, it can be a scary thing knowing that you will die sometime within the next century, and for eternity your fate could be made up! This is why I want to know the truth. At the moment, I will hesitantly admit that Christianity seems false based on the differences of Hell/Heaven in the OT and the NT. I do not desire this at all. I know how hopeless atheism/agnosticism/Deism (and most other religions) are. Christianity honestly seems like the best bet. I just want to be sure that I am right about that.

All that said, if you are of the same mindset as me, a desperate, honest seeker of truth... not looking to back some agenda, but to really help me realize the truth... then you are welcome to participate.

Sheol is mentioned in the OT. Every time it appears to be a reference to a place of the dead. There is no reference to this being a place of torment or place of eternal residence. Even some of the OT saints admitted they would be "in" Sheol. This seems increasingly more apparent to me after reading hundreds of views on forums and comments to blog posts, etc. It seems as though Hell (as we know it today as an eternal place of torment) is not mentioned in the OT. In fact, Heaven isn't really even mentioned in the OT! However, there are a few indirect references to Heaven (such as Psalm 23:6, "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever") - which is relieving.

My main (two-part) question, for right now, is can anyone explain why the mainstream, Christian interpretation of Hell is not evident in the OT, and why there are scarce references to any hope for OT believers (e.g. Heaven)?

Additionally, in direct opposition of the conclusion to the question mentioned above, how do Universalists explain how they either believe in Hell as being temporal or Hell being non-existant when examining what was said in Matthew 26:24, "The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born." Surely it is better to be born, if all roads eventually lead to Heaven. Even if you subscribe to the idea of a temporal suffering in Hell (or purification process), Judas (in this example) is only temporarily suffering in Hell for the sins committed in life (most specifically turning over Jesus to the Pharisees)... but then he will spend the rest of eternity in Heaven, right? So why does Jesus say it would be better for Judas if he had not been born? It is obviously better to be born and end up in Heaven (even if temporarily suffering in Hell) than it is to not be born.

Old Testament believers went to the heart of the earth at that time, called Paradise. This place was also called by Jesus Abraham's Bosom.

Jesus made this statement before He was crucified buried and descended into the heart of the earth -

Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. John 6:46

and again -

18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

Now after Jesus descended down into the heart of the earth, He preached to those down there and then took them into heaven -

8 Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men." 9 (Now this, "He ascended"--what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) Ephesians 4:8-10

Jesus taught us more of this truth in this story -


22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' Luke 16:22-26

also we see from the discussion between Samuel and Saul this evidence -

13 And the king said to her, "Do not be afraid. What did you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth." 14 So he said to her, "What is his form?" And she said, "An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle." And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down. 15 Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" And Saul answered, "I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do." 16 Then Samuel said: "Why then do you ask me, seeing the Lord has departed from you and has become your enemy? 1 Samuel 28:13-16



JLB

 

[beartheweak]

Old Testament believers went to the heart of the earth at that time, called Paradise.

I do know that there is plenty of evidence in the NT to come to that conclusion about the OT believers. Still, where does the OT speak of such hope to the OT believers? It seems that if I were alive during OT times (or at least for the few hundred years up until Jesus' birth), I would have no idea what would happen to me after death because of the scarceness of the text regarding that. It seems that the most an OT believer could have known about the afterlife was that the righteous appear to "dwell in the house of the Lord", but the dead stay in Sheol (place of the dead, a dormant/unconscious state or "sleep").

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

I do know that there is plenty of evidence in the NT to come to that conclusion about the OT believers. Still, where does the OT speak of such hope to the OT believers? It seems that if I were alive during OT times (or at least for the few hundred years up until Jesus' birth), I would have no idea what would happen to me after death because of the scarceness of the text regarding that. It seems that the most an OT believer could have known about the afterlife was that the righteous appear to "dwell in the house of the Lord", but the dead stay in Sheol (place of the dead, a dormant/unconscious state or "sleep").

The faith of Abraham is the same faith that saves today.

Genesis 15 NASB
1 After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, "Do not fear, Abram, I am a shield to you; Your reward shall be very great."
2 Abram said, "O Lord GOD, what will You give me, since I am childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?"
3 And Abram said, "Since You have given no offspring to me, one born in my house is my heir."
4 Then behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This man will not be your heir; but one who will come forth from your own body, he shall be your heir."
5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.
​

This was the culmination of the promises to Abraham (at this time, Abram) in which he was also told that the land in which he sojourned would belong to his descendants, that his seed would love and serve the Lord, and in Him (Christ) would they find their reward. God himself is the fulfillment of that promise. And the blessing to all the world is, in fact Christ. Saving faith in the Old Testament is no different that it is today. Faith in Christ is the answer. Even though Abram/Abraham did not know that name, he knew God and that the promises made would be kept.

As to the original question, is hell preached in the Bible, the answer is an unequivocal "yes." The Jewish people believed they would be redeemed by God, both in their temporal life and in their spiritual life, if they had the faith of Abraham. Of course, some simply thought being Jewish was enough. That attitude is reflected today in the people who think growing up in the church is enough. Those who did not believe went down to Sheol (the grave), which carried the same connotation of lostness that the term "hell" in the New Testament does. It was a place of judgment. It was a place of no life, as opposed to new life, as those who believed knew they had through their faith.

It is a more vaguely defined faith that that of Christians, to be sure. The reason? There were 109 prophecies of Christ amidst the legal descriptions in the Law. and in the writings of the prophets. Had they read the Law and the Prophets for what those writings were, they would have recognized Christ. They were given the necessary information to know Him. Some did. Most did not. But God is not done with the Jewish people. The Abrahamic Covenant has not, as some wrongly claim, passed to the church. It will still be fulfilled after the Tribulation and in the Thousand Year Reign of Christ on Earth.

 

[Danus]

While my question seems to imply a bias that favors Universalism, I am actually completely undecided and confused.

Bear with me because I will probably raise objections to the answers here (to all sides of the debate), but it doesn't mean I agree with the opposing views or disagree with you because, as I mentioned, I am completely confused and just want to find the truth. As one who follows where the truth leads, I have been an atheist, agnostic, deist, and Christian back and forth and back and forth for the last few years. It's such a dramatic, real, and tiring war. First of all, CAN ANYONE RELATE TO THIS?

It seems that 99% of "truth-seekers" are already made up and think all other opposing views are "obviously" incorrect (when they haven't even done all the in-depth investigation into the opposing theories as they possibly could have). Sorry that this bothers me, but I just find it hard to trust that someone is really a seeker of truth if they don't have testimony of long durations of time in tears, fright, stress, and emotional pain in honestly trying to determine the truth. Determining the afterlife is an important question- what gives this question any importance is "How do I go to the right place, if there is more than one destination?"... For those of you that know, it can be a scary thing knowing that you will die sometime within the next century, and for eternity your fate could be made up! This is why I want to know the truth. At the moment, I will hesitantly admit that Christianity seems false based on the differences of Hell/Heaven in the OT and the NT. I do not desire this at all. I know how hopeless atheism/agnosticism/Deism (and most other religions) are. Christianity honestly seems like the best bet. I just want to be sure that I am right about that.

All that said, if you are of the same mindset as me, a desperate, honest seeker of truth... not looking to back some agenda, but to really help me realize the truth... then you are welcome to participate.

Sheol is mentioned in the OT. Every time it appears to be a reference to a place of the dead. There is no reference to this being a place of torment or place of eternal residence. Even some of the OT saints admitted they would be "in" Sheol. This seems increasingly more apparent to me after reading hundreds of views on forums and comments to blog posts, etc. It seems as though Hell (as we know it today as an eternal place of torment) is not mentioned in the OT. In fact, Heaven isn't really even mentioned in the OT! However, there are a few indirect references to Heaven (such as Psalm 23:6, "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever") - which is relieving.

My main (two-part) question, for right now, is can anyone explain why the mainstream, Christian interpretation of Hell is not evident in the OT, and why there are scarce references to any hope for OT believers (e.g. Heaven)?

Additionally, in direct opposition of the conclusion to the question mentioned above, how do Universalists explain how they either believe in Hell as being temporal or Hell being non-existant when examining what was said in Matthew 26:24, "The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born." Surely it is better to be born, if all roads eventually lead to Heaven. Even if you subscribe to the idea of a temporal suffering in Hell (or purification process), Judas (in this example) is only temporarily suffering in Hell for the sins committed in life (most specifically turning over Jesus to the Pharisees)... but then he will spend the rest of eternity in Heaven, right? So why does Jesus say it would be better for Judas if he had not been born? It is obviously better to be born and end up in Heaven (even if temporarily suffering in Hell) than it is to not be born.

Hello beartheweak.

I can answer your questions, but first let me explain something about following Christ.

It's a mistake to view Christianity as a religion. Although it can be said of it as a religion, the Christian life is about yielding our sinful self will, which is sinful by nature, to the righteous will of God. This is what's meant by (Surrendering) to God. In that act, we are redeemed. It is also what's known as a conversion, from our own will, to God's will.

The Christian life is about submitting to Gods will, and in this we have a relationship, and in this relationship we are constantly edified as temporal beings, but made perfect in Christ; not of ourselves.This is by faith, and faith alone; Faith in Christ, and what Christ, and Christ alone has done for us, not what we think we have done in any way; to include our own seeking of truth before finding it. While it's great to say we seek the truth, ultimately the truth is not in us, and only revels itself to us upon finding us, and not before. So don't say you've been an atheist, agnostic, deist, and Christian and back again. While it's fair to say you are interested in Christianity, the question is, are you interested in following Christ? Because if you are then you are called to do so, and if you do, only then can you know the truth as Christ reveals it to you. With that, lets answer your questions.

"can anyone explain why the mainstream, Christian interpretation of Hell is not evident in the OT, and why there are scarce references to any hope for OT believers (e.g. Heaven)?"

Let's start by dropping the word "mainstream" because it does not matter what's fashionable in regard to man's thoughts here. The OT clearly mentions an after life.The Old Testament teaches life after death, and that all people went to a place of conscious existence called Sheol. The wicked were there (Psalm 9:17; 31:17; 49:14; Isaiah 5:14), and so were the righteous (Genesis 37:35; Job 14:13; Psalm 6:5; 16:10; 88:3; Isaiah 38:10)

And the NT? Well, the New Testament equivalent of Sheol is Hades. Prior to Christ’s resurrection, Luke 16:19-31 shows Hades to be divided into two realms: a place of comfort where Lazarus was and a place of torment where the rich man was. The word hell in verse 23 is not “Gehenna” (place of eternal torment) but “Hades” (place of the dead). Lazarus’s place of comfort is elsewhere called Paradise (Luke 23:43). Between these two districts of Hades is “a great gulf fixed” (Luke 16:26).

Jesus is described as having descended into Hades after His death (Acts 2:27, 31; cf. Ephesians 4:9). At the resurrection of Jesus Christ, it seems that the believers in Hades (i.e., the occupants of Paradise) were moved to another location. Now, Paradise is above rather than below (2 Corinthians 12:2-4).

Today, when a believer dies, he is “present with the Lord” (2 Corinthians 5:6-9). A beliver is rightious in his faith in Christ's righteousness, not in his own. When an unbeliever dies, he follows the Old Testament unbelievers to Hades. At the final judgment, Hades will be emptied before the Great White Throne, where its occupants will be judged prior to entering the lake of fire (Revelation 20:13-15).

Your second question: Additionally, in direct opposition of the conclusion to the question mentioned above, how do Universalists explain how they either believe in Hell as being temporal or Hell being non-existant when examining what was said in Matthew 26:24, "The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."

First off, the verse you are referring to, Matthew 26:24, is directly about Judas betrayal of Jesus. As you may know Judas committed suicide after he betrayed Jesus. Regardless of his spiritual condition, that act is a wish not to be born. We can draw all sorts of inferences to that verse, but it's hardly of any value when considering Universalism. As for Universalism, and how they can say there is no Hell, or whatever....I can't say, but it's wishful thinking. It's certainly not what the bible says. It's not what God says, but then again those who reject Christ make up all sorts of things by their own will.

You posted some good questions. Hope that helps. You show yes to be a Christian so I'm hopping that's in faith, as in no turning back.