Does the devil need to get God's permission?

[childeye]

Well, we gone beyond the scope of what the thread is about, and removed the ability of your average Christian to give input about their thoughts concerning the matter. "Does the devil need permission to get us?"

I do feel the topic of the thread is still the issue I am discussing. The question is like asking, does the devil need to ask permission to become vain? Did he need permission to say in his vanity what he believed to be true? If God silenced him, then it could be murmured that God was afraid of what Satan had to say. Doubt in God is vanity. Thinking you know better than God is vanity.

By default of the Spoken Word which upholds all things, we will run into the devil time and time again.

Not sure what you mean by this, but I suspect that you may be simply saying that the darkness does not comprehend the Light, and also that it does not mean that the Light does not comprehend darkness.

As for Vanity, it's a Greek female noun, a state of something defined by the following male noun or article. Fear (which causes sin) is a verb or action. Iniquity is a condition without regards to any law. Is this a byproduct of moral corruptness called vanity?

Fear in the dictionary is listed as both a verb and a noun. I simply know it as an emotion that comes from sensing danger either real or only even perceived to be real. Sin, to me, is both a place and a direction in separation from God. To me, sin is caused by believing a lie about God. So then, if I fear God as a danger to me, then I would not trust Him. Hence such a fear is actually unfaith or distrust. That then would be believing a lie about God which would prompt or justify disobedience, which when acted upon will result in sin. Iniquity to me simply means unfair, as in the opposite of equity. So yes, fear as in distrust can cause sin, but fear of God in this manner of distrust is preceded by a lie placed in the unknown, causing uncertainty about God. For God is trustworthy.

Iniquity to me simply means unfair assessment, as in the opposite of equity, and similar to hypocrisy. Iniquity is a by product of vanity. Satan was made beautiful and full of knowledge in comparison to all others. And His beauty became vanity because he took it for granted, as if he deserved it or earned it. And this became iniquity, because as he looked at those lesser endowed, he showed a despising for them, even though God had made them that way just as God had made him who he was. That is how I believe vanity entered and preceded iniquity. I have already said that Satan didn't esteem God properly.

If your theory is correct, then the whole creature sacrifices everyone to serve itself (Satan) from the earth to all the expanse in space. That model can not be sustained forever, it will eat itself from the tail end. Could be why there is not only a new earth, but heavens also, if the first is really imploding on itself.

I simply believe that since God sent a True Image of Himself to believe in and be saved, then there is a false image residing in our subconscious, which is therefore the source of corruption in the creation. You mentioned fear and perfect Love casts out all fear. I see a perfect Love in the Christ and nothing to fear. I also note what the devil said about God in Genesis 3:4-5.
To me, Satan subtly implies that God is a tyrannical liar who keeps us down, by not allowing us to have what would make us His equal through fear of death. Since God defines all of our terms such as good and evil, right and wrong, success and failure, then a creation with this image of god would result in a might makes right struggle for power, which we see in wars and racism, money and influence.

 

[Brother Mike]

I do feel the topic of the thread is still the issue I am discussing. The question is like asking, does the devil need to ask permission to become vain? Did he need permission to say in his vanity what he believed to be true? If God silenced him, then it could be murmured that God was afraid of what Satan had to say. Doubt in God is vanity. Thinking you know better than God is vanity.


Not sure what you mean by this, but I suspect that you may be simply saying that the darkness does not comprehend the Light, and also that it does not mean that the Light does not comprehend darkness.

Fear in the dictionary is listed as both a verb and a noun. I simply know it as an emotion that comes from sensing danger either real or only even perceived to be real. Sin, to me, is both a place and a direction in separation from God. To me, sin is caused by believing a lie about God. So then, if I fear God as a danger to me, then I would not trust Him. Hence such a fear is actually unfaith or distrust. That then would be believing a lie about God which would prompt or justify disobedience, which when acted upon will result in sin. Iniquity to me simply means unfair, as in the opposite of equity. So yes, fear as in distrust can cause sin, but fear of God in this manner of distrust is preceded by a lie placed in the unknown, causing uncertainty about God. For God is trustworthy.

Iniquity to me simply means unfair assessment, as in the opposite of equity, and similar to hypocrisy. Iniquity is a by product of vanity. Satan was made beautiful and full of knowledge in comparison to all others. And His beauty became vanity because he took it for granted, as if he deserved it or earned it. And this became iniquity, because as he looked at those lesser endowed, he showed a despising for them, even though God had made them that way just as God had made him who he was. That is how I believe vanity entered and preceded iniquity. I have already said that Satan didn't esteem God properly.


I simply believe that since God sent a True Image of Himself to believe in and be saved, then there is a false image residing in our subconscious, which is therefore the source of corruption in the creation. You mentioned fear and perfect Love casts out all fear. I see a perfect Love in the Christ and nothing to fear. I also note what the devil said about God in Genesis 3:4-5.
To me, Satan subtly implies that God is a tyrannical liar who keeps us down, by not allowing us to have what would make us His equal through fear of death. Since God defines all of our terms such as good and evil, right and wrong, success and failure, then a creation with this image of god would result in a might makes right struggle for power, which we see in wars and racism, money and influence.

Reading through this several times, concepts far outweigh what could be understood by most. Interesting though. It sort of goes beyond the devil needing permission from God to get us. Certainly not, as it seems by the corrupt nature (Vanity) of God's once perfect creation puts us on the devils path without God's help. If Peter expressing a thought, causes Jesus to rebuke Satan, then it appears we are surround with many voices in this Word, and most are not good. Attempts to see who can be devoured seems to be a constant fixture in our lives.

It has gone beyond the scope of what I have thought before. The Eternal Word itself brings an enemy to take what was sown, and if that did not work, look forward to step two when the persecution rises for the Word sake.

I am glad this did not turn into a discussion about Job. I like the part you mentioned about fear can cause distrust and sin. Fear is actually faith for something undesired to happen in the future. Just as powerful as Faith in what God said.

Amazing warned 58 times to fear not, and 48 times to not be afraid. It's serious business to fear things, as that indicates you think God may not come through. Far more times than it's mentioned about stealing or committing murder.

Satan speaking with God saying, "You hurt Job Lord, put your hands on him." God knowing nothing Satan said is true, said, "I am not hurting Job, pay attention stupid, He is in your power. I have been watching you interact with him, don't kill him."

Just as powerful as faith in God is, Job said.... All those things I feared has come on me................. Job 3:25 Give the devil no place.
For God to stop the devil, would be to violate His own word and the fact this World is vanity, and Satan the temporary god of it.

Mike.

 

[smaller]

I am pretty sure we can find things wrong with every single group out there.

Yeah. It's called sin. Everyone has the infection. It's in the flesh and it's demonic in nature. So ask me if the "devil" needs permission? Uh, no. It's the reality of the contrary flesh.

Paul digs in much deeper on this subject and this particular aspect entails at least 1/2 the body of his revelation writings.

BUT, the information is not taken well by the adversaries, proving it's reality in an odd sort of way.

The Borg might say "resistance is futile." Scriptures say "resistance is guaranteed."

There are many different types of Charismatic folks, some preach with rattlesnakes.
Mike.

Too bad they don't see the snake in their own flesh. In fact, they never do. Funny how that works.

 

[Brother Mike]

Yeah. It's called sin. Everyone has the infection. It's in the flesh and it's demonic in nature. So ask me if the "devil" needs permission? Uh, no. It's the reality of the contrary flesh.

Paul digs in much deeper on this subject and this particular aspect entails at least 1/2 the body of his revelation writings.

BUT, the information is not taken well by the adversaries, proving it's reality in an odd sort of way.

The Borg might say "resistance is futile." Scriptures say "resistance is guaranteed."



Too bad they don't see the snake in their own flesh. In fact, they never do. Funny how that works.

Sin? That's what it's called? I seem to be misunderstanding then. I thought you were referring to a certain belief or doctrine the pentecostals had. This doctrine allow sin? Or there is not really a doctrine, but the folks are just infected with sin?

According to Mike's understanding, I have not found one group or denomination that I 100% agree with. I believe as they do, that I have scriptures to support my belief that proves their understanding wrong.

It could be I am just dogmatic about scriptures. If A scripture does not say it, I don't buy into it. I try my best not to add anything in, or take anything away. To do so would be called religion.

I was at Healing school last month at "MY" church. I can get Word teaching from positive folks in the middle of my day, why not. Plus I like to be around the folks. The teacher used the term "Jesus, the 2nd person in the Godhead"
These things catch my attention, because where is that in scripture? Why does Jesus have to be 2nd? How does saying that help anyone with faith to be healed? The expression comes straight from Rome, 1600's the Athasian creed. I am not Roman Catholic, so why mention their doctrine from a creed in my Healing class?

Now lots of folks believe in some type of Trinity, oneness or modalist doctrine. I get that, no issues with me. I question using a statement as biblical, even though it's found nowhere in scripture. It may seem harmless, but if that is allowed in, then what else is being allowed in?

God is Sovereign!
That is not a scripture either, and nothing in scripture says that. What is the definition of Sovereign when you connect it to God? It normally means God does what He wants, to who He wants, when He wants, despite what God said to the contrary.
It's a catch all when things go wrong. God in his sovereignty saw fit not to answer this pray the way we wanted. We don't always understand these things.
That is just being spiritually lazy when God said if you lack wisdom, then ask. Ya, It will take some seeking and scripture time, but He will answer as promised and let you know where YOU missed it. It's not God's fault your prayer flopped on it's face.

I don't consider these things sin though. Just because I don't agree with them, does not make me think the people are way off or bad folks.

So, what is the beef with pentecostal folks? I think a lot of them are really strange, and I think I would rather sit in a Baptist Church than a Pentecostal one, just for the sake of liking things more calm.

 

[smaller]

Sin? That's what it's called? I seem to be misunderstanding then. I thought you were referring to a certain belief or doctrine the pentecostals had. This doctrine allow sin? Or there is not really a doctrine, but the folks are just infected with sin?

Uh, no. What I'm referring to is the reality of the contrariness of the flesh of everyone to the Spirit, inclusive of believers. And that contrariness is sourced to our adversary.

According to Mike's understanding, I have not found one group or denomination that I 100% agree with. I believe as they do, that I have scriptures to support my belief that proves their understanding wrong.

That's a logical outcome. I "used" to see similarly, and asked myself, why is this? Eventually I had to examine the reality of my own contrariness. Paul does a excellent job on peeling back the onion through scripture.

IF any of us examine our own construct as Gal. 5:17 shows us, we will see two counts. The Spirit and the flesh. And we'll see the flesh is, by nature, contrary. Always is.

So, in this light we would agree partly with all believers and partly not, because it's our own construct also being examined in the process.

It could be I am just dogmatic about scriptures. If A scripture does not say it, I don't buy into it. I try my best not to add anything in, or take anything away. To do so would be called religion.

Let's presume that none of us disagree with a single Word of scripture. I certainly don't. But I also know that the contrariness in my own flesh will make an opposite conclusion, and do so subtly and deceptively, because it's contrary, against the Spirit and will never agree or concede to it's own defeat. These are the "two shoes" that every believer stands in.

I was at Healing school last month at "MY" church. I can get Word teaching from positive folks in the middle of my day, why not. Plus I like to be around the folks. The teacher used the term "Jesus, the 2nd person in the Godhead"
These things catch my attention, because where is that in scripture? Why does Jesus have to be 2nd? How does saying that help anyone with faith to be healed? The expression comes straight from Rome, 1600's the Athasian creed. I am not Roman Catholic, so why mention their doctrine from a creed in my Healing class?

I'd consider it a relatively benign observation that comes with generally accepted Trinitarian understandings. I take it you are not one? Not trying to "out" you or heresy hunt. A lot of folks don't accept anything that came from Rome and I don't blame them. It's a vicious place to take anything from.

Now lots of folks believe in some type of Trinity, oneness or modalist doctrine. I get that, no issues with me. I question using a statement as biblical, even though it's found nowhere in scripture. It may seem harmless, but if that is allowed in, then what else is being allowed in?

Always a legitimate question. I have basically been forced into a corner on these matters, over time, understanding the construct of every believer resides in both Spirit AND contrariness. The contrary portion will always pose perpetual issues with everyone and in every group or sect. It's inevitable, because we all bear contrary flesh. Not too hard to figure out. We all try, quite vainly, to squeeze the entirety of ourselves into correct understanding, BUT we never seem to sit down and realize our own factual contrary state, presently. It's one of the hallmarks of the deception in contrary flesh, wanting to force it's way in to things of the Spirit. In reality it can never be done, because it's CONTRARY.

God is Sovereign!
That is not a scripture either, and nothing in scripture says that. What is the definition of Sovereign when you connect it to God? It normally means God does what He wants, to who He wants, when He wants, despite what God said to the contrary.

If God isn't Sovereign I wouldn't bother with christianity and would have no possible reason to "trust" Him. Why would I?

It's a catch all when things go wrong. God in his sovereignty saw fit not to answer this pray the way we wanted. We don't always understand these things.

Why would God choose to grant any Spiritually good thing to that which is contrary to the Spirit? Dead end expectation.

That is just being spiritually lazy when God said if you lack wisdom, then ask. Ya, It will take some seeking and scripture time, but He will answer as promised and let you know where YOU missed it. It's not God's fault your prayer flopped on it's face.

I've been around people who are so optimistically fervent it's sickening. We can "optimist" ourselves to death and we'll never eliminate our own factual contrariness to the Spirit which is in our flesh. There is the base of the observation. I've been up to my eyeballs in "worldly" forms of extreme optimism schools of thought and also in the charismatic realm.

It's nothing more than hypnotic voodoo bordering on conjuring and witchcraft. But it appeals to a lot of people.

I don't consider these things sin though. Just because I don't agree with them, does not make me think the people are way off or bad folks.

Some of the people in charismania are, imho, quite possessed by wicked spirits. Openly so, as are their congregants. I'll be polite and say God in Christ will save them regardless, but NOT all of them i.e. the wickedness in their flesh will not be continuing on past the grave. IN the meantime they all "entertain" stuff that I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole.

Dens of deception is a mild descriptive. Some of these "preachers" are so swelled up and ego bloated it's off the charts. I've seen the same things at high levels of business too. Unreal. Borderline megalomaniacs, some of them. Totally deluded.

So, what is the beef with pentecostal folks? I think a lot of them are really strange, and I think I would rather sit in a Baptist Church than a Pentecostal one, just for the sake of liking things more calm.

No doubt. Eventually I learned that there probably isn't anyone in the pulpit today who would step solidly into Paul's shoes. If they did, they'd be shown the door rather quickly.

Let's face the fact that christianity is a Divinely Intentionally "divided" lot for the most part today. And I say that understanding that God DOES work as an adversary, factually, with the contrary portions of all of us. And that few, if any, care to observe this side of the ledgers of faith.

But that's really where all the 'good stuff' is packed away, in eventual dire judgments. Which is also the Christian Hope. We all want judgments, but never upon ourselves in our own contrariness in the flesh. It's a hard place to go.

 

[Brother Mike]

Pretty well thought out, but I have to ask, not ignoring the contrariness in our own flesh, even the ability to understand certain words correctly. (Not denying that Contrariness is not present) Could it be a lack of revelation instead of being fully contrariness?

You talked about being optimistic, but Psalm 138:8 says God perfects those things that concern me. Scriptures like that make me super optimistic, plus I have never seen God fail one thing in my life, and I have had lots of things, lots of self inflicted things I need help with.

So then, it's because of the understanding I come up short, I can't do anything without the Lord Jesus, as He said that. Then does contrariness really come into play as much, when we have an advocate?

To be honest, I don't see the Charismatic realm as that optimistic. Let go, let God can get you killed. All I have heard is unbelief, and hope based on just wanting to hope something, not scripture.

Have to go to Healing School. Be blessed.

Mike.

 

[smaller]

Pretty well thought out, but I have to ask, not ignoring the contrariness in our own flesh, even the ability to understand certain words correctly. (Not denying that Contrariness is not present) Could it be a lack of revelation instead of being fully contrariness?

More like lack of revelation about factual contrariness.

We seldom consider, in our theology, the role of the adversarial party who is also being 'judged' and 'condemned' in our own flesh.

You talked about being optimistic, but Psalm 138:8 says God perfects those things that concern me. Scriptures like that make me super optimistic, plus I have never seen God fail one thing in my life, and I have had lots of things, lots of self inflicted things I need help with.

A one sided sight, imho. Everyone by nature of their flesh is led to cheerlead on the optimist side. Few, if any, care to examine the other side, personally. I called it earlier, ignorant bliss. And for some, that's maybe a good place to stay. Even thought it's not all that truthful to the scriptures. There's a time and place for all disclosures.

So then, it's because of the understanding I come up short, I can't do anything without the Lord Jesus, as He said that. Then does contrariness really come into play as much, when we have an advocate?

The Advocate has TWO roles. For the Spirit and Against contrariness in our flesh. It's pointless to lean only on one side of the ledgers, but that is the common way.

To be honest, I don't see the Charismatic realm as that optimistic. Let go, let God can get you killed. All I have heard is unbelief, and hope based on just wanting to hope something, not scripture.

Sickeningly blinded optimism is all it is. Every rider on their wish horsies galloping off to scriptural fairytale wonderland where God is always victorious to bring them their own imaginations and delusions. bleech.

There are two workings of God in Christ. One for us, one against the contrariness of our flesh, which is demonically sourced in internal temptations and lusts.

God will have Mercy on one, and use the other to force the issue.

Friend and Foe may be the more accurate sight.

The Friend of honesty. The Foe of all liars.

Isaiah 44:20
He feedeth on ashes: a deceived heart hath turned him aside, that he cannot deliver his soul, nor say, Is there not a lie in my right hand?

 

[Brother Mike]

A one sided sight, imho. Everyone by nature of their flesh is led to cheerlead on the optimist side. Few, if any, care to examine the other side, personally. I called it earlier, ignorant bliss. And for some, that's maybe a good place to stay. Even thought it's not all that truthful to the scriptures. There's a time and place for all disclosures.


Sickeningly blinded optimism is all it is. Every rider on their wish horsies galloping off to scriptural fairytale wonderland where God is always victorious to bring them their own imaginations and delusions. bleech.

Still following up to the Optimistic idea. Scripture calls this hope. To me, not being optimistic, would be to take the side that things might not work out that great. You used the term Sickeningly blinded optimism. So then I have to ask if something has happened to you personally that makes you take a strong stance against optimism?

Another thing, I never saw this optimism you speak about in Tongue talking churches. I did hear lots of unbelief and lack of optimism. I hope I get healed is not being very optimistic. I have heard optimism founded on nothing also. God will heal your kid if you believe enough, taking them to the doctor is unbelief. That is not optimism, unless the Word optimism does not need to be founded on facts. Hope, as scripture says is founded on truth.

Example:
Someone driving along and the hail and rain start pounding down so much they can't keep the truck their driving on the road. They notice some other big trucks laying on their side. Up ahead the see trucks pulled off the Highway to wait it out, so they pull up behind them.

Well, the weather gets worse, and the CB is going, and the next thing they hear is panic that a tornado is about to cross right through them down the interstate they are sitting on the shoulder on. One driver is heard that He is going to call home and say goodbye. You can tell he was crying, so He is not very optimistic. Other drivers saying OMG, OMG, hold on, hold on.

Now the driver that pulled over hearing all this is a believer, and it's common knowledge that His Lord Jesus had rebuked a storm and all was calm. He also has common knowledge that we don't wrestle against flesh and blood, and the enemy is behind this thing in some way. He also knows Jesus said nothing by any means shall hurt you, so He is not concerned at all, though the truck is shaking violently and hail is trying to break through the windshield.

So, we have some drivers who are freaked out, grown men crying, thinking it could be all over.
We have another driver thinking about a few scriptures as clam as can be and could care less, they believe it's going to be just fine.

A bunch are looking at the reality of what damage a tornado can do, One is not even considering it, based on some scripture He thinks He has.

Which group is in worse shape, the tornado is coming regardless.

Mike.

 

[smaller]

Still following up to the Optimistic idea. Scripture calls this hope. To me, not being optimistic, would be to take the side that things might not work out that great. You used the term Sickeningly blinded optimism. So then I have to ask if something has happened to you personally that makes you take a strong stance against optimism?

Perhaps you missed the point entirely. It is a sight of endless Love to God's children and equally endless in the opposite direction to that which is contrary to the Spirit.

This entails TWO sights. Both accurate.

It is and remains God's Prerogative to see Both Ways.

Another thing, I never saw this optimism you speak about in Tongue talking churches. I did hear lots of unbelief and lack of optimism.

What you perhaps really heard, as I heard, was the claim of endless optimism and the blame that is associated for lack of faith, when magically, things don't happen when we fail to take into account the contrary measures of God.

This sight does place us into a "submissive" hold. We submit to both sides of the ledgers, and really can do no other anyway, regardless.

I hope I get healed is not being very optimistic. I have heard optimism founded on nothing also. God will heal your kid if you believe enough, taking them to the doctor is unbelief. That is not optimism, unless the Word optimism does not need to be founded on facts. Hope, as scripture says is founded on truth.

It's just not a one sided argument. It's not a "poor old God. He'd love to do you right, but just can't get the job done because of you and your lack of faithful rosy optimism that HE WILL come through, IF YOU LET HIM." That isn't the picture.

We are always utterly reliant on His Sole Mercy. He can look to either side that He pleases to look to, at His Sole Discretions. Let's call it Superior Advantage.

Example:
Someone driving along and the hail and rain start pounding down so much they can't keep the truck their driving on the road. They notice some other big trucks laying on their side. Up ahead the see trucks pulled off the Highway to wait it out, so they pull up behind them.

Well, the weather gets worse, and the CB is going, and the next thing they hear is panic that a tornado is about to cross right through them down the interstate they are sitting on the shoulder on. One driver is heard that He is going to call home and say goodbye. You can tell he was crying, so He is not very optimistic. Other drivers saying OMG, OMG, hold on, hold on.

Now the driver that pulled over hearing all this is a believer, and it's common knowledge that His Lord Jesus had rebuked a storm and all was calm. He also has common knowledge that we don't wrestle against flesh and blood, and the enemy is behind this thing in some way. He also knows Jesus said nothing by any means shall hurt you, so He is not concerned at all, though the truck is shaking violently and hail is trying to break through the windshield.

And I'm equally sure that regardless of what sight is invoked, the final outcome is Solely Determined by God. And that, partly because every screamer and every "faith claimer" has factual contrariness that God can and DOES elect to deal with at His Sole Discretions.

The best and perhaps only legit cry of faith would be for Mercy in the temporal. And it will assuredly NOT always come to pass.

So, we have some drivers who are freaked out, grown men crying, thinking it could be all over.
We have another driver thinking about a few scriptures as clam as can be and could care less, they believe it's going to be just fine.

A bunch are looking at the reality of what damage a tornado can do, One is not even considering it, based on some scripture He thinks He has.

Which group is in worse shape, the tornado is coming regardless.

Mike.

God's Mercy is the only real Spiritual Factor at play, or not. And can be had, or not, Solely as He Determines. It's a zero sum end game from our perspectives according to our factual construct.

Every believer would all stand, making any "prayers" also in the shoes of factual contrariness.

God in Christ Engages the Superior Hand, always, in every and any outcome. And, any outcome will always serve His Purposes, regardless of how we may see them or view them, presently. The child of God always wins IN THE END. And that which is contrary eventually passes away.

In between, it's entirely HIS CALL.

 

[Brother Mike]

And I'm equally sure that regardless of what sight is invoked, the final outcome is Solely Determined by God. And that, partly because every screamer and every "faith claimer" has factual contrariness that God can and DOES elect to deal with at His Sole Discretions.

The best and perhaps only legit cry of faith would be for Mercy in the temporal. And it will assuredly NOT always come to pass.

It always boils down to the Word faith. There are levels though above that, that determine outcomes of things.

I'll finish my Story:
The drive that believe He had some scripture to not worry about any tornado was calm. So calm He called home to talk to the wife and wait for the Tornado to pass over.
Well, the CB grew louder with Cries, and the Tornado had actually gotten on the interstate ahead and was coming through the trucks.
The guy in the truck, still talking away to the wife, the truck violently shaking back and forth.

The Lord Speaks then after hearing the cries of the drivers. He speaks to that one clam driver.
Take care of that, you hear their cries.
The driver says yes, Lord. Tells the wife He has to go take care of something. He never mentioned the tornado to her either, it's not a big deal.

The tonado is like right there, no more than 50-70 yards from the first truck in line. Sort of strange that things just calmed down wth it so close. The driver says, "Listen up tornado, you will miss all these trucks on the side, there shall be no damage, and no hurt to any driver in Jesus name, now go."

Bam, all quite. The drivers up front started yelling, it just vanished. The hail stopped, the rain stopped the sun came out. It even stunned the drive a bit that spoke to the tornado. He fully expected the tornado to just go around, but this was amazing.

The driver that spoke to the tornado said, "That's pretty impressive Lord, Glory to God."

The outcome is according to who?
Mat_12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
Deu_30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Mat_9:29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

So, Granted, the Lord did say, "Take care of that" It was the Lord's direction for that situation. The driver, though the Lord spoke to already knew for a fact they would be just fine. He would have stayed on the phone had the Lord not spoke. A bad, or good thing, I don't know. The driver did know He already said to himself this is not an issue, just like His Lord said let's go to the other side. Good enough to get through the Storm. When the storm came, the drivers Lord rebuked it, because the others were afraid, the Lord fast asleep, not thinking a thing.

The example the driver was following was from His Lord.

Your saying the best would be to call out for Mercy, but that is not the example the Lord set. Even calling out for mercy, it might not end well you said.

This concerns me.......... Because this really happened, and I was that driver.

Mike.

 

[smaller]

Your saying the best would be to call out for Mercy, but that is not the example the Lord set. Even calling out for mercy, it might not end well you said.

This concerns me.......... Because this really happened, and I was that driver.

Mike.

I'm certainly NOT saying Mercy wasn't delivered for you or in my own life, many times in many ways. I just understand it as not being of me, but of God who gave/gives Mercy "or not." I also know that He always does/doesn't like some puppet on my personal "faith string" (or lack of faith string) and why, which is based solely on His Sight to deal with contrariness, should He so choose.

 

[Brother Mike]

I'm certainly NOT saying Mercy wasn't delivered for you or in my own life, many times in many ways. I just understand it as not being of me, but of God who gave/gives Mercy "or not." I also know that He always does/doesn't like some puppet on my personal "faith string" (or lack of faith string) and why, which is based solely on His Sight to deal with contrariness, should He so choose.

God the Puput would be, "I speak a Lamborghini in my driveway by tomorrow with my name on the title, in Jesus name."
Now if God never told me he was going to cause a Lamborghini to come to me, then I would have no bases for speaking that.

If you put a demand on the Word, Something He already said though, then it's true regardless before you even speak. This is why I was not concerned about a tornado or storm. I already knew, what the Lord said and thought about it. No need to go bugging him about something He already covered for me. I know the outcome for me already.

Now when He said take care of it, I knew what He meant in a instant, then I just acted on what He said about the Tornado. The outcome though would have been no matter the case, that I am going to be just fine.

The Word was sent to heal us and deliver us. That can't be changed, God already said that. No use in arguing to him about it, so best to just believe it.

Your going to believe God, that no weapon formed against you shall prosper, or you going to believe the devil, that sometimes, you just never know, the weapon just may work out against you.

This is not about something in ourselves, or our flesh, there are only two sides here, two Kingdoms (rules) As humans, though created like God, we are subject to one side or the other. It's what we pick that makes the difference, and God already strongly suggested to us to pick the blessing, and pick life.

Mike.

 

[smaller]

Whatever side one leans to Mike, the other side remains in opposition.

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

We can only say God is entirely and only FOR us IF we are turned into liars about our own contrariness. Which the Spirit is factually against.

No, God is not for or in behalf of what is contrary, and can't be.

 

[Brother Mike]

Whatever side one leans to Mike, the other side remains in opposition.

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

We can only say God is entirely and only FOR us IF we are turned into liars about our own contrariness. Which the Spirit is factually against.

No, God is not for or in behalf of what is contrary, and can't be.

No doubt there is a side against God. If you walk according to the Spirit (spirit) then you can walk against the flesh, and keep the old man in the box. It takes effort though, and at times, despite the effort, the Old man escapes and starts knocking things over.

Mike.

 

[smaller]

No doubt there is a side against God. If you walk according to the Spirit (spirit) then you can walk against the flesh, and keep the old man in the box. It takes effort though, and at times, despite the effort, the Old man escapes and starts knocking things over.

Mike.

If we examine the fact that Paul had evil present with him in Romans 7:21 and then read his statement from 2 Cor. 12:7 the most likely culprit of evil present would obviously be the messenger of Satan in his own flesh. If we examine that Paul said "I am the chief of sinners" after salvation in 1 Tim. 1:15 and recognize that "sin is of the devil" we see the culprit again. And no, it ain't the "old man."

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

One of the above is contrary to God in Christ. Yet God uses that to drive home the points of need for His Mercy and Grace to us. These things are however not extended to the other party and God can and does deal in a contrary fashion with the other party in the flesh.

That's the long and the short of it.

 

[Brother Mike]

If we examine the fact that Paul had evil present with him in Romans 7:21 and then read his statement from 2 Cor. 12:7 the most likely culprit of evil present would obviously be the messenger of Satan in his own flesh. If we examine that Paul said "I am the chief of sinners" after salvation in 1 Tim. 1:15 and recognize that "sin is of the devil" we see the culprit again. And no, it ain't the "old man."

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

One of the above is contrary to God in Christ. Yet God uses that to drive home the points of need for His Mercy and Grace to us. These things are however not extended to the other party and God can and does deal in a contrary fashion with the other party in the flesh.

That's the long and the short of it.

Well, I suppose we can say Paul was the chief of sinners, doing Believers the the way He was doing them. Paul still talks about being exalted. What if Paul walked in that situation with all his abundance of revelation and thought He was strong in that, without relying on the grace already there and anointing? This is what Paul did, and so the anti-Message to Paul's Message kicked his butt.

Later Paul said it's best to think and be weak in something, that the Power of Christ may rest on you.

True, Paul thinking His wonderful and great revelation given him would be more than enough to impress everyone is a form of pride, but could it be just one of those things that Paul said....... "I have learned?"

Paul need the grace and anointing (Power of Christ) and went in there not factoring what was already his. He got his butt handed to him.

Does God use that? Or is that by default what we get if we don't know without Jesus we can do nothing?

A whole lot of things we think God might use concerning the enemy, comes anyway without God thinking a thing or doing a thing. It's the way things are set up.
Even getting off God's path of light, the other option is the path of darkness by which we stumble on things and don't know why.

How much is God really involved in this, when we are already told what the other options are going to be?

If you noticed, nobody but you, Childeye and me have posted, have we made the thread out of grasp for most? Sometimes I wonder if it's not just as good to let new folks in the Lord share, and hang back for awhile. It sort of bugs me as we clash scriptures or agree with the same folks all the time.

Just thinking.

Thank you for sharing.

Mike.

 

[smaller]

Paul explains the situation of every believer quite clearly in 1 Cor. 15:42-47, and it speaks directly to Paul's own depiction of himself and the contrary flesh, which is subject to lusts and temptations of the tempter.

1 Corinthians 15:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Paul has clearly spelled out the conditions of the natural man, and included himself in that account, as noted in prior posts. And, this is all in anticipation of the second "promised" man to come, AT THE END, which is THIS END:

Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Did God himself subject the natural man to the above conditions? Yes.
Are those conditions linked to the devil, the tempter? Yes.

And God didn't ask anyone's permission to allow it either nor do we have any say so in the matters:

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

The only "difference" between a believer and an unbeliever is that we are supposed to SEE our adversary working in our own flesh/mind/heart. The unbeliever can't. God hasn't allowed them to see and instead works against the disobedient spirit in judgment.

And who is that disobedient spirit?

Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Being from the general charismatic realm, I'm pretty sure you've heard the term above as referring to the devil, the prince of the power of the air. Also noted as such in Mark 4 in relationship to "fowls of the air" and "Satan."

The only difference is we SEE this condition. We "resist" but we do not "lie" about the resisting party, as it's part of our contrary construct in the flesh and part of our HOPE of eventual release from this contrary condition from temptations and lusts in the flesh, from the tempter. This also includes us ONLY having partial sight, just as Paul did himself.

The Hope of our faith in Christ is founded in receiving a NEW BODY, HIS BODY, just as Paul noted in 1 Cor. 15 above:

"and afterward that which is spiritual." The same promise repeated in Phil. 3:21.

Paul is extremely consistent in his positions and presentations.

Does the devil need permission from God to tempt us internally? Uh, he already got it a long time ago, from the moment God blessed Adam, THEN Mark 4:15 happened to Adam. Anyone can "test" this in real time today, by examining their own thoughts in relationship to Paul's standard in Romans 7:7-13 and finding evil, tempting, lustful thoughts OR by simple random evil thoughts that come from left field, often seemingly out of nowhere. No, the tempter didn't go ask God's permission either. He already has it per Mark 4:15, to enter the heart to deceive, to tempt, to destroy, and ultimately to kill the flesh. This is where Paul takes our understanding in order to "reckon" the flesh dead, as it IS dead by indwelling sin, which is demonic.

All of this is actually "proof" of the validity of the Gospel, in the inverse sense.

AND if we are following along with Jesus, we will openly SEE, with our own mind, with our own heart, and with our own eyes and hear with our own ears, the SIGNS of resistance, following those who BELIEVE.

 

[smaller]

God in Christ has SuperAbundantly BLESSED us with very certain ARMAMENT to engage in our battle with the ADVERSARY(s), read: not our fellow blinded by Satan, mankind, but against the DEVIL. I'm pretty sure we all know them well enough by now. They are REAL Spiritual Armaments:

Ephesians 6:
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

This battle first transpires between our own TWO EARS.

13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

 

[childeye]

Paul need the grace and anointing (Power of Christ) and went in there not factoring what was already his. He got his butt handed to him.

Does God use that? Or is that by default what we get if we don't know without Jesus we can do nothing?

This messenger of Satan stuff, sent to be a buffer so Paul doesn't get too puffed up, is a perfect example of how we are all subject to vanity. Satan didn't need permission to fall under this same vanity and neither did Paul.

A whole lot of things we think God might use concerning the enemy, comes anyway without God thinking a thing or doing a thing. It's the way things are set up.
Even getting off God's path of light, the other option is the path of darkness by which we stumble on things and don't know why.

How much is God really involved in this, when we are already told what the other options are going to be?

To me, knowing the options are rather irrelevant without the power to walk in the correct one. Since God wants to save us through mercy so that it will be by His grace as children of promise, I don't think we have anything to do with it except as examples of vanity, so that God can be properly glorified and properly esteemed. What is true worship? Revelation 4:10-11.

If you noticed, nobody but you, Childeye and me have posted, have we made the thread out of grasp for most? Sometimes I wonder if it's not just as good to let new folks in the Lord share, and hang back for awhile. It sort of bugs me as we clash scriptures or agree with the same folks all the time.

Your thoughtfulness of others makes a good point. So does Satan have to ask permission to tempt someone, deceive someone, persecute someone? We know he "desired" to sift Peter. Luke 22:31. In the NASB translation "desired" is translated "demanded permission". The strange thing about that, is Jesus said not to worry about it, since he had prayed for Peter. Exactly what difference does Jesus' prayer for Peter make, when being sifted seems to imply finding out what quality of person Peter is? What kind of prayer is it? Does this sifting refer to Peter denying Jesus three times?

 

[Brother Mike]

This messenger of Satan stuff, sent to be a buffer so Paul doesn't get too puffed up, is a perfect example of how we are all subject to vanity. Satan didn't need permission to fall under this same vanity and neither did Paul.


To me, knowing the options are rather irrelevant without the power to walk in the correct one. Since God wants to save us through mercy so that it will be by His grace as children of promise, I don't think we have anything to do with it except as examples of vanity, so that God can be properly glorified and properly esteemed.


Your thoughtfulness of others makes a good point. So does Satan have to ask permission to tempt someone, deceive someone, persecute someone? We know he asked to sift Peter. The strange thing about that, is Jesus said not to worry about it, since he had prayed for Peter. Exactly what difference does Jesus' prayer for Peter make, when being sifted seems to imply finding out what quality of person Peter is? What kind of prayer is it? Does this sifting refer to Peter denying Jesus three times?

I read it a bit different there. Why would Satan care to ask Jesus about Peter? This is the same Satan that killed Jesus, the respect is simply not there. (To his hurt, but still)

And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
(Luk 22:31-32 KJV)

I don't see asking permission here, I see someone with the Holy Spirit and gift of seeing things in the spiritual realm watching what is going on.

And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.
(Luk 22:33 KJV)

Jesus just told them they would leave him, but Peter is telling him He is wrong here. Peter also makes himself out to be better than the rest in another passage saying they might leave, but not me, I am the strong one.

It was this comment after that Jesus said you will deny me. Satan did get him, but that word, "When your converted" still stood.

Unless it's judgement, I don't see God giving permission to Satan to do anything to us. God don't need the tools of hell to get us on the right path.

Even Paul, the Messenger was not sent to humble Paul, the workings of Satan come to kill, steal and destroy, not help God humble us. No, He came to the people with a anti-Gospel message against Paul's so Paul's would not be exalted above measure. Paul tried to get it done on His amazing revelation and not factor in Christ (The anointing one and His anointing) so got the slats kicked out from underneath him thinking He was strong in something, when He should have been trusting more in the Lord's anointing and grace than His own knowledge.

Mike.