[_ Old Earth _] Does the Earth Really Move?

[Ebed-Yahweh]

Is the debate between the Geocentric and Heliocentric models of the universe truly over? Your first impulse may be to dismiss this matter out of hand, but perhaps you should ask yourself a few questions before you do so.

Have you ever felt or observed the supposed rotation of the earth? Have you ever felt or observed the earth to move through the heavens?

Do you or do you not observe the sun to rise in the east and set in the west every day?

Is it not true that, in addition to the moon, the planets and the stars all appear to move around the earth? Is the idea that the earth and the planets revolve around the sun a plain observable fact, or is it based on a series of assumptions?

If you are the slightest bit curious about the apparent contradictions between the teachings of modern science and the simple observations of everyday reality, please investigate the following links:

From Copernicanism Through Big Bangism Modern Cosmology’s Model Of The Universe Is Built Solely On ASSUMPTIONS

Exposing The Copernican Deception: The Cataclysmic Impact On Every Field Of Modern Man’s Knowledge

COPERNICANISM AND DARWINISM:INSEPARABLE CONCEPTS HISTORICALLY, PHILOSOPHICALLY, SPIRITUALLY, AND SCIENTIFICALLY

http://www.fixedearth.com/links/sym...ATIONSHIP BETWEEN COPERNICANISM AND DARWINISM

Cosmology and Gravitation

Flower Pattern Discovery

"Virtual" Reality Or Actual Reality: Which Is Science And Which Is Fraud?

NASA's AGENDA: Promoting Copernicanism & Evolutionism

Kabbala VI: Occult Religion & Spurious Science Declare:Six Days And 15 Billion Years Are The Same Time Frame

Small Universe

Links to these webpages and more can be found at www.fixedearth.com

 

[cubedbee]

Is the debate between the Geocentric and Heliocentric models of the universe truly over? Your first impulse may be to dismiss this matter out of hand, but perhaps you should ask yourself a few questions before you do so.

Have you ever felt or observed the supposed rotation of the earth?

Yes. It's called a Foucalt Pendulum. Unless Newton's First Law of Motion is incorrect (it's been validated literally millions of times through observation), then the pendulum proves the rotation of the Earth.

Have you ever felt or observed the earth to move through the heavens?

Not personally. But astromers have been observing for hundreds of years that the the position of certain stars (close ones) change slightly relative to the stars around them when observed 6 months apart. This slight change is regular and predictable and indicates that the Earth is in a different position at each observation point. The effect is called Parallax, and is either the result of Earth movement or a deceptive God.

Do you or do you not observe the sun to rise in the east and set in the west every day?

Have you ever in your life been in a car? Have you ever looked out the window when in a car? If your answers are yes, then you've seen stationary objects seemingly moving towards you. This effect isn't a particularly new one nor is it difficult to observe.

Is it not true that, in addition to the moon, the planets and the stars all appear to move around the earth?

Same answer as last time.

Is the idea that the earth and the planets revolve around the sun a plain observable fact, or is it based on a series of assumptions?

No, it's a pretty observable fact. Unless you believe that everything NASA has ever done has been one giant (and insanely expensive) hoax, then you have to admit that the heliocentric model of the universe is correct.

If you are the slightest bit curious about the apparent contradictions between the teachings of modern science and the simple observations of everyday reality, please investigate the following links:

I recommend going for a drive instead of reading such absurdity.

 

[Asimov]

Is the debate between the Geocentric and Heliocentric models of the universe truly over? Your first impulse may be to dismiss this matter out of hand, but perhaps you should ask yourself a few questions before you do so.

Is this a joke?

Have you ever felt or observed the supposed rotation of the earth? Have you ever felt or observed the earth to move through the heavens?

Humanity has observed the earth's rotation. You can't feel it, cuz you're on it! The earth is freakin huge. If you were the same size, and the earth was the size of a basketball, you'd feel it.

Do you or do you not observe the sun to rise in the east and set in the west every day?

Do you really think that we're stupid enough to believe anything you say?

Is it not true that, in addition to the moon, the planets and the stars all appear to move around the earth?

They appear to revolve around it....you know why?? cuz we're spinning!

Is the idea that the earth and the planets revolve around the sun a plain observable fact, or is it based on a series of assumptions?

Actually, it's based on plain observable fact

If you are the slightest bit curious about the apparent contradictions between the teachings of modern science and the simple observations of everyday reality, please investigate the following links:

Thank you but no, I'm not an idiot, and I don't buy into your lies and deceit.

 

[Asimov]

You know Ebed...for someone who's God commands you not to bear false witness...you do a pretty good job of not following Him.

 

[Barbarian]

Do I smell a troll?

 

[Ebed-Yahweh]

I would ask that you examine some of the links I've provided before automatically refuting the idea. It's not as if I thought it was very likely at first either, but some very interesting points are raised by the articles if you're willing to keep an open mind for a brief amount of time.

 

[BenjaminTC]

Wow, its a genuine flat earth creationist! Wow, I've never encountered one. YECs, here's your long lost cousin! :D

 

[Asimov]

I would ask that you examine some of the links I've provided before automatically refuting the idea. It's not as if I thought it was very likely at first either, but some very interesting points are raised by the articles if you're willing to keep an open mind for a brief amount of time.

Automatically refuting something that's beein observed, calculated, tested....against some crackpot Church idea that the Earth is the center of everything. Superiority complex at it's finest. If you honestly believe the earth is flat, I'm not surprised that you would believe that the Earth is fixed and doesn't rotate....

 

[Bryan]

I guess it is possible that the entire universe is rotating around the earth. If that were true, you'd still see the same exact set of observable data that leads us to believe that the Earth is in motion.

The probelm is, in order for everything to be in motion and the earth to be still, the patterns of motion would have to be incredibly complex and convoluted. It could be true, but I seriously doubt it.

 

[SyntaxVorlon]

*Flushes toilet
Nope, earth's still moving. Unless you want to explain how stars can move superluminally.

 

[Ebed-Yahweh]

For those who believe that it's absolutely insane or stupide or both to even consider geocentric or Geocentric models, here's a couple of good links:

Myths about the Copernican Revolution

Geocentrism Challenge

Why Geocentricity?

And here's an interesting quote of Malcolm Bowden from his THE BASIC SCIENTIFIC ARGUMENTS
FOR GEOCENTRICITY webpage.

THE ROTATION OF THE UNIVERSE
How can the universe rotate so rapidly without disintegrating? There is growing evidence that the aether has "Planck density" - it is extremely dense and the sun and planets are like corks in very dense water comparatively. This whole universe sweeps round the earth because otherwise it would collapse in on itself due to its density. The mechanics of this system forces the other planets etc. to describe ellipses in their orbit around the sun. Ernst Mach proposed that it is the weight of the stars circling the earth that drags Foucault pendulums around, creates Coriolis forces in the air that give the cyclones to our weather etc. Barbour and Bertotti (Il Nuovo Cimento 32B(1):1-27, 11 March 1977) proved that a hollow sphere (the universe) rotating around a solid sphere inside (the earth) produced exactly the same results of Coriolis forces, dragging of Foucault pendulums etc. that are put forward as "proofs" of heliocentricity! This paper gives several other confirmations of the superiority of the geocentric model.

Thus, there is evidence that the earth is NOT moving around the sun, but either the aether is moving around the earth carrying the planets with it, or the earth is spinning on its axis. The most likely model is that the aether is rotating around the earth as calculations show that if it did not, it would rapidly collapse upon itself.

I was just introduced to the the possibility of the Geocentric view being true less than a week ago. I had never really considered it before. I'm sure the idea seemed just as strange to me as anyone else who has read this thread. Ultimately, if the Acentric or Heliocentric models are true, then I could deal with it. However, if the Geocentric model could possibly be proven true, then it would change the world, so that is why I am interested in it at present. I've learned a couple of things about science and astronomy over the last few days that I didn't know before, so it has been a rewarding experience in any case.

Even though I do like the String theories, Brane theory, and holographic universe models which have been developed to help marry Relativity with Quantum Physics, I am seriously considering that General Relativity is false. There are serious scientists out there who reject it. You should check out Mathematical Magic
and the other webpage I quoted from concerning relativity earlier Einstein's Theory of Relativity - Scientific Theory or Illusion?.

The Electric universe model (also known as Plasma Cosmology) rejects Relativity and seems to be able to make physics operate without it. Also, some people believe that Dayton Miller was actually able to detect Ether Drift, although that that might mean the earth is moving even though it may help disprove General Relativity. I'm not sure about that one. Perhaps, if ether drift is true, it actually provides evidence for the universe rotating around the earth? Anyway, here's a link if you want to read more about that.

Dayton Miller's Ether-Drift
Experiments: A Fresh Look



Also, I never said anything about believing in a flat earth. Anyway, the idea that medieval Europeans believed the earth was flat is a myth created by Washington Irving (of Rip Van Winkle and Legend of Sleepy Hollow fame).

See the following quote from one of my Western Civilizations text books:

"John Mandeville, TRAVELS
...First appearing in Europe between 1356 and 1366, Mandevilles' Travels purported to be the firsthand account of an English knight's trans-Eurasian adventures between 1322 and 1356
...In the first selection Sir John deals with the shape and size of the earth. Most people today are unaware that the notion that medieval European scholars believed the world was flat is a modern myth created by the American writer Washington Irving in the nineteenth century.

[The quote from Travels itself] "So our northern star, which we call the Lode Star cannot be seen there. This is proof that the earth and the sea are round in shape and form."

And..."For the earth is very large and is some 20,425 miles in circumference, according to the opinion of wise astronomers from the past, whose words I am not going to contradict, even though it seems to me, with my limited understanding and with all due respect, that it is larger". (The Human Record: Sources of Global History. Second Edition/Volume I: To 1700. Alfred J. Andrea. James H. Overfield. Houghton Mifflin Company. Boston, MA. 1994. pgs. 367-370.)

See the following links for more conformation of this:

The Myth of the Flat Earth

The Travels of Sir John Mandeville Chapter XX

The Project Gutenberg Etext: The Travels of Sir John Mandeville

 

[cubedbee]

Dude, we've sent space probes all throughout our solar system. We know with 100% certainty that the Earth orbits the sun and no the other way around. It's remotely possible that our Solar System is the center of the universe and that all stars orbit around it, but there is a 0% chance that the Earth is at the center of it all. And men have been on the moon and witnessed the Earth rotating. The Earth moves. End of question.

 

[Bryan]

Dude, we've sent space probes all throughout our solar system. We know with 100% certainty that the Earth orbits the sun and no the other way around. It's remotely possible that our Solar System is the center of the universe and that all stars orbit around it, but there is a 0% chance that the Earth is at the center of it all. And men have been on the moon and witnessed the Earth rotating. The Earth moves. End of question.

B, let me begin by saying I agree with you. I don't think the geocentric theory is correct.

BUT,

If everything moved around the earth, and the earth stood still, we'd still have the exact same set of observable data. The probes would still see the same thing, the people on the moon would still see the same thing that we do under the heliocentric model. Like I said, the patterns of movement would just be much more complex, but they would look exactly the same. The only way you'd be able to observe a difference is if you were watching from outside of the universe.

 

[Quath]

I can say that realtivity is a field theory that will not be overturned. Newtonian physics was not overturned by relativity, it was just realized to be a special case. So there may be more physics discovered, but it will not show General Relativity to be false.

Basically special relativity can be sumed up as "Physics is the same no matter how fast you are going." General relativity extends this to say "It is also the same not matter how much you are accelerating either." Then all you have to do is realize that time can be measured in meters (since it is just distance in a different dimension) and you can work out all the rest with little additional assumptions.

For example, the speed of light in a vacuum is 1. The speed of light constant, c, is just a conversion factor from seconds to meters. It is no more magical than 3 feet/yard. So E = mc^2 is really just saying that E=m with corrected units.

General relativity also predicted a time shift for satellites. This is taken into account for the sattelites in space and had been measured on airplanes. So general relativity has made many odd predictions that have turned out to be true. It is one of the most successful theories out there.

Quath

 

[Barbarian]

"Dude, we've sent space probes all throughout our solar system. We know with 100% certainty that the Earth orbits the sun and no the other way around. It's remotely possible that our Solar System is the center of the universe and that all stars orbit around it, but there is a 0% chance that the Earth is at the center of it all. And men have been on the moon and witnessed the Earth rotating. The Earth moves. End of question. "

B, let me begin by saying I agree with you. I don't think the geocentric theory is correct.

Big mistake there. Once you start taking some of scripture as figurative, it's a slippery slope. Next, you'll be accepting evolution. And then who knows, maybe dancing!

 

[SyntaxVorlon]

Ebed, geocenterism is dead. Nothing in modern science would allow it to live.

 

[Ebed-Yahweh]

B, let me begin by saying I agree with you. I don't think the geocentric theory is correct.

BUT,

If everything moved around the earth, and the earth stood still, we'd still have the exact same set of observable data. The probes would still see the same thing, the people on the moon would still see the same thing that we do under the heliocentric model. Like I said, the patterns of movement would just be much more complex, but they would look exactly the same. The only way you'd be able to observe a difference is if you were watching from outside of the universe.

Thank you for that explanation, Bryan. Perhaps you could also explain how close a modified Tychonian model could come to describing known phenomena if the sun (and the moon of course) orbited the earth while the rest of the planets in the system revolved around the sun?

Btw, have you ever examined Dr. Neville T. Jones' site, http://www.midclyth.supanet.com? You seem to know what you're talking about, so maybe you could tell me whether some of his ideas are really feasible or not?

 

[Quath]

I guess I am trying to figure out where you disagree with standard science. Do you believe in the law of conservation of momentum? Do you believe that force = mass * acceleration?

Quath

 

[BenjaminTC]

This is no mystery; he's just an innerrantist. The flat, immovable earth is the literal interperatation from the bible. I don't see why most fundamental Christians don't buy into this, its just as illogical as YECism.

 

[Free]

The flat, immovable earth is the literal interperatation from the bible.

Personally, I have never gotten that from any scripture in the Bible.