Does the human soul consciously exist following death

[jgredline]

LUKE 16:22–28
Because this passage so obviously supports the idea of conscious existence after deathâ€â€as well as conscious suffering for the wicked following deathâ€â€the Jehovah’s Witnesses, 7th day adventist and other cults go to great lengths to reinterpret it.

They argue that “the rich man represents the religious leaders who are favored with spiritual privileges and opportunities, and Lazarus pictures the common people who hunger for spiritual nourishment.â€Â

They say that “since the rich man and Lazarus are not literal persons but symbolize classes of people, logically their deaths are also symbolic.†Their “deaths†symbolize dying to their former circumstances. In God’s program, the “repentant Lazarus class dies to their former spiritually deprived condition and come into a position of divine favor.â€Â

By contrast, “those who make up the rich-man class come under divine disfavor because of persistently refusing to accept the kingdom message taught by Jesus.†The “torment†referred to in this passage is the pain caused on evil people by the righteous message of Jesus and his disciples.


If people at death simply lapse into a state of unconsciousness, then Jesus’ comments in this passage lose their meaning. The elaborate reinterpretation offered by the Watchtower Society and other cukts completely crosses the boundary of credulity.

Scholars have noted that whenever Jesus taught, he provided examples from real-life situations. For example, he spoke of a treasure buried in a field, a wedding feast, a man working in a vineyard, a woman sweeping her house, a shepherd watching his sheep, and a son returning home after squandering money.

Jesus never illustrated a teaching with a falsehood. This being the case, we must conclude that in Luke 16 Jesus is giving a teaching based on a “real-life†situationâ€â€involving conscious existence after death. Certainly the verse is in perfect harmony with other verses that teach conscious existence in the afterlife (see Luke 23:46; Acts 7:59; 2 Cor. 5:6–8; Phil. 1:21–23; 1 Thess. 4:13–17; Rev. 6:9–10).

Jesus never calls this real story a“parable,†and unlike parables, which never use real names, Jesus used a real name (Lazarus) of a person.


Any Comments and I will gladly accept Amens.

 

[destiny]

They say that “since the rich man and Lazarus are not literal persons but symbolize classes of people, logically their deaths are also symbolic.†Their “deaths†symbolize dying to their former circumstances. In God’s program, the “repentant Lazarus class dies to their former spiritually deprived condition and come into a position of divine favor.â€Â

By contrast, “those who make up the rich-man class come under divine disfavor because of persistently refusing to accept the kingdom message taught by Jesus.†The “torment†referred to in this passage is the pain caused on evil people by the righteous message of Jesus and his disciples.

I have a hard time believing anybody could arrive at such a conclusion on their own; to do so would require some off the chart mental gymnastics. For a person to believe the above, there would have to be a deeply ingrained denominational teaching from man.
I see it in most of the denominations in some form or another. It seems they all have a pet doctrine that is far removed from what the bible actually teaches.
Too many spoon feedings isn't a good thing, we need to know Gods word for ourselves, not because our denomination says so.

As far as your post, I aree with it.
Thats all for me on this subject, i'm in a peaceful mode. :D

 

[Atonement]

Great post.. I agree with it, so therefore I have little to say, but look forward to the responses..

 

[golfjack]

reply

There are those who deny that the dead are conscious. There have been many attempts to prove that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is only a fable or an allegory, that what Jesus said had no basis in fact. If what the Lord taught means the opposite of what He said, we could scarcely know whether to believe anything He said were true. If this story of the rich man and Lazarus anything, it shows that men are conscious after death. It is not an isolated passage. Many other Scriptures in the Bible teach this truth: Matt. 10:28; Luke 23:43; Luke 20:38; Phil. 1:23-24; 2 Cor. 5:6, 8; 2 Cor. 12:1-4; 1 Peter 3:18-20; and Rev. 6:9-11).

Man is not only a physical body; he is spirit also. Just as the body has five senses, so the spirit has corresponding senses. Dives in hades was quite conscious. He was able to see, hear, talk, taste, feel, had memory, and remorse.


May God bless, golfjack

 

[jgredline]

to do so would require some off the chart mental gymnastics. For a person to believe the above, there would have to be a deeply ingrained denominational teaching from man.
I :D

I came from the Free Methodist denomination. (not to be confused with united methodist) and I always thought the denomination was pretty cool, Until I left.


The Doctrine of Rick Warrens PDL got introduced and the bible was quickly replaced for the most part. :x I left my Church when the ''new pastor'' decided to start using the message to preach with and ''all'' the sunday school clasess were doing the PDL. I would have nothing of it and so I left quite a few years ago. About a year ago I heard its pretty much a dead CULT..

I went to my current church which is a non denominational and have found a church body that is actually a church I praise God for my church.

I have seen many churches get taken over by false teachers and thats why I am passionate about defending the Church and calling false teachers what they are. Cults.

 

[destiny]

I came from the Free Methodist denomination. (not to be confused with united methodist) and I always thought the denomination was pretty cool, Until I left.


The Doctrine of Rick Warrens PDL got introduced and the bible was quickly replaced for the most part. :x I left my Church when the ''new pastor'' decided to start using the message to preach with and ''all'' the sunday school clasess were doing the PDL. I would have nothing of it and so I left quite a few years ago. About a year ago I heard its pretty much a dead CULT..

I went to my current church which is a non denominational and have found a church body that is actually a church I praise God for my church.

I have seen many churches get taken over by false teachers and thats why I am passionate about defending the Church and calling false teachers what they are. Cults.

My last church was over taken by false teachers, they were confronted to no avail, so we left.
I think false teachers need to be confronted and exposed, but I also think continuously arguing with them gives them the biggest platform to push their doctrines and influence others... Romans 16:17
"Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."

Thats why i've stopped going in circles all the time; when it goes beyond confrontation and correction to continuous circular arguments, it's no longer in line with scripture. (maybe thats another topic)

 

[CP_Mike]

What is 'the soul'?

I think this would be a more appropriate question.

The Hebrews never looked at people being a 'sum of parts' like the Greeks, but they looked at people as an 'echad' or unity. They had no word for 'the whole', but used the word 'Nephesh' which has often been translated as 'soul'. So word like 'ruah', 'basar', 'leb' etc were words used to describe the whole person from a particular view point.
Unfortunately, the true Hebrew meanings have been corrupted by the influence of Plato, Aristotle and the Babylonians from around 250bc on (the whole Apochrypha is heavily influenced by the notion of 'pre-existent souls in Macabees) and the biblical meanings are now largely lost due to the neoplatonic influence our Western church has.

So, what is 'soul' in the bible?

Nephesh - Psyche - Soul
The important passage in Genesis 2:7 sets the scene for this 'window - word' into the nature of personhood. An individual becomes a 'nephesh' from the infusion of divine breath into moulded dust. In physical terms 'nephesh' means, 'neck', 'throat', 'gullet' and came to mean 'life', that 'vital motion' which distinguishes a living being from a corpse.
'Nephesh' has such a variety of senses that we must make a careful definition in each particular case. Meanings overlap and are used side by side. It is easy to end up with contradictory statements about 'nephesh'. Here are some of the central statements about 'nephesh':-
• it is that vital life which is shared by both humans and animals [Gen 2:19].
• it is life that is bound up with the body, blood is the vehicle of nephesh [Dt 12:23], at death it dies [Nu 23:10] draining away with the blood, with resuscitation it 'returns'; not that it has gone anywhere.
• it can denote 'the living individual themselves' [Gen 14:21], and can replace the personal pronoun to create special emphasis [Ps 42:6], God uses it of himself [Am 6:8].
• it is strongly instinctive [animal] activity; desire, vital urge, feeling, emotion, mood [Dt 14:26].
• it is feelings and emotions of a spiritual kind; grief, pain, joy, peace, love [Ezk 27:31]; its highest expression is longing for God [Ps 25:1].
The New Testament uses the Greek 'psyche' with the sense of the Hebrew 'nephesh'. Paul's writings are significant for how rarely he uses it. The Synoptics are interesting in that one third of their usage refers to life beyond death [Mt 10:28,39; 16:25-26; Mk 8:35-37; Lk 9:24; 21:19], due to the overlap of present and future in the Kingdom of God; revolutionary in terms of its Hebrew roots.
This 'nephesh' is primarily the life of the whole person in terms of strongly instinctive [animal] activity. It reflects the glory and richness of God's gift of life to him though susceptible to death. It is not an independent substance which, as many have argued, survives death.

This is far removed from the Greek idea we are incarnated souls.

But to come to your point at the beginning, when we are dead, there are hints of 'conscious waiting' for Christ's return (rev 6:9) even though in many more places death is regarded as sleep.

The Hebrews never believed in an immortal soul, but rather after death, they were no longer 'Nephesh', but 'Rephaim' (Job 3) where death was not extinction in Sheol, but death being 'the weakest form of life' as they understood it.

 

[jgredline]

My last church was over taken by false teachers, they were confronted to no avail, so we left.
I think false teachers need to be confronted and exposed, but I also think continuously arguing with them gives them the biggest platform to push their doctrines and influence others... Romans 16:17
"Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."

Thats why i've stopped going in circles all the time; when it goes beyond confrontation and correction to continuous circular arguments, it's no longer in line with scripture. (maybe thats another topic)

Destiny I agree with you 100%.
I would rather not waste my time arguing with false teachers like those that are allowed to run free on this forum. The only reason I do it, is for those Guest and new believers and people searching for answers that come to forums like this. When JW or mormons come to my house I give them the Gospel in few minutes and if they reject what I have to say I kick them out and I am done with them. Here its differant. I fight for thiose who can't fight for themselves. I would much rather discuss the other things in regards to the bible, but for now this is what I will do.

 

[jgredline]

CP
I will disect your post when I get home this eveing. I look forward to finishing what we started. Hopefully the the thread will not get locked again. :wink:

 

[mutzrein]

Mmmm - I've not heard of the 'spin' put on this story by these so called 'cults'. And as one who shelves mans interpretation until having an understanding of the messages conveyed by such a passage, I'm not going to rush in where angels fear to tread.

It is worthy though of thought, consideration and waiting on the Lord.

Thanks for raising it JG.

BTW could this have gone into 'Apologetics & Theology' perhaps?

 

[jgredline]

Mmmm - I've not heard of the 'spin' put on this story by these so called 'cults'. And as one who shelves mans interpretation until having an understanding of the messages conveyed by such a passage, I'm not going to rush in where angels fear to tread.

It is worthy though of thought, consideration and waiting on the Lord.

Thanks for raising it JG.

BTW could this have gone into 'Apologetics & Theology' perhaps?

Mutz
As always I appreciate your comments.
As for it going into the applogetics forum, with my luck it will get locked, so I thought I would try it here :wink:

 

[jgredline]

CP
While I work on your post here is something else to chew on for anyone who wishes to comment on it..

Is hell the grave or a place of conscious torment?

Matt 5:27-30 says
27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, You shall not commit adultery. 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.



Jesus refers here to the “body†being “cast into hell,†and the psalmist speaks of “bones†being “scattered at the mouth of hell [sheol]†(Ps. 141:7). Jacob talked about his “gray hairs†being brought down to hell (Gen. 42:38; cf. 44:29, 31). However, Jesus referred to hell as a place where the soul goes after one dies and is in conscious torment (Luke 16:22–23). Is hell just the grave, as the Jehovah’s Witnesses and some other cults claim

The Hebrew word translated “hell†(sheol) is also translated “grave†or “pit.†It simply means “unseen world,†and can refer either to the grave, where the body is unseen after burial, or to the spirit world, which is invisible to mortal eyes.
Further, in the Old Testament, sheol often means grave, as indicated by the fact that it is a place where “bones†(Ps. 141:7), “gray hairs†(Gen. 42:38), and even weapons (Ps. 76:3–5) go at death. Even the resurrection of Jesus’ body is said to be from “hell†(i.e., the grave), where it did not see corruption (Acts 2:30–31). Bet this got your attention ha?:wink:

There may be allusions to “hell†as a spirit world in the Old Testament (cf. Prov. 9:18; Isa. 14:9); “hell†(Greek: hades) is clearly described as a place of departed spirits (souls) in the New Testament. Fallen angels are there and they have no bodies (2 Peter 2:4). Unrepentant human beings are in conscious torment there after they die and their bodies are buried (Luke 16:22–23). In the end those in hell will be cast into the lake of fire with the devil where they will be “tormented day and night foreer†(Rev. 20:10, 14–15). Jesus spoke many times of hell as a place of conscious and eternal suffering (cf. Matt. 10:28; 18:9; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Luke 12:5; 16:23).

Is it not amazing what what can do with a concordance. :wink:

 

[SputnikBoy]

A human being doesn't have a soul ...a human being IS a soul. Until one grasps this fact they are speaking into the air. The soul (human being) that sins will die. Case closed.

This topic has been debated many times and it is slanted toward the traditional (and erroneous) belief that the soul (the human being) exists beyond death. This is NOT scriptural and such a thread topic is designed not for the diligent Bible scholar to participate in but merely to encourage a continued misrepresentation of scripture cloaked as 'the truth'.

What is the MAIN intent of this thread? Obviously it is to somehow 'prove' that the unrighteous will be very much alive when God puts them into his torture chamber for eternity. What a SICK (and ungodly) belief!

The soul that sins (the lost) WILL DIE. THIS needs to be refuted before this thread can continue to the contrary.

 

[Drew]

Jesus never illustrated a teaching with a falsehood. This being the case, we must conclude that in Luke 16 Jesus is giving a teaching based on a “real-life†situationâ€â€involving conscious existence after death.

This is a not a valid argument as has been shown in another thread.

The problem is that it denies the rather obvious fact that Jesus did indeed use allegory in his parables, unless we are expected to believe, for example that there really were 10 virgins, etc.

It is in the very nature of allegory to make claims that are factually not true - this is what allegory does. No one would claim that the author of "Jack and the BeanStalk" is lying when he claims that there was a beanstalk that reached into the skiy.

It is simply not correct to equate the use of allegory with lying - and this is what the above argument tries to achieve. It is simply incorrect to put Jesus in a spot where He is robbed of the opportunity to make allegorical statements at the peril of being deemed to have lied.

 

[Drew]

Scholars have noted that whenever Jesus taught, he provided examples from real-life situations. For example, he spoke of a treasure buried in a field, a wedding feast, a man working in a vineyard, a woman sweeping her house, a shepherd watching his sheep, and a son returning home after squandering money.

If this is true, then presumably the scholars who make such claims can be identified. It certainly appears to the "common man" that Jesus' parables often referred to fictional situations (e.g. the 10 virgins parable). In order for the above argument to support jgredline's ultimate point, it would need to be shown that each of the parables is an historical account of an actual event.

An important point - it is not enough to say that these could be real historical accounts. This reason: Consider the story of the boy who cried wolf. This could be a real story or it could be a "fable". The fact that the account could be true does not mean that it must be true. This is an important distinction to bear in mind.

 

[jgredline]

Hey Fellas I see you guys are back. 8-) for the ol tag team approach. :wink:

I just got home right now and need to go assemble a crib for my daughter so I will be back in a ittle bit. It will also give me time to ponder your post.

 

[SputnikBoy]

There is much wisdom as well as scriptural savvy in your posts, Drew ...I'm rather astonished that otherwise seemingly intelligent people can't see this.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Hey Fellas I see you guys are back. 8-) for the ol tag team approach. :wink:

I just got home right now and need to go assemble a crib for my daughter so I will be back in a ittle bit. It will also give me time to ponder your post.

This will also give you the opportunity to hone up your REASONING skills as well as question your traditional scriptural beliefs, jg. Or are they too deeply rooted for that to happen?

 

[jgredline]

Sputnikboy wrote
A human being doesn't have a soul ...a human being IS a soul. Until one grasps this fact they are speaking into the air. The soul (human being) that sins will die. Case closed.

Sput.
So Jesus sinned when he said this right. This is what your saying in your above remarks. Do you care to take them back and thus admit your wrong?
Matt 10:27-28
27 "Whatever I tell you in the dark, speak in the light; and what you hear in the ear, preach on the housetops. 28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

This topic has been debated many times and it is slanted toward the traditional (and erroneous) belief that the soul (the human being) exists beyond death. This is NOT scriptural and such a thread topic is designed not for the diligent Bible scholar to participate in but merely to encourage a continued misrepresentation of scripture cloaked as 'the truth'.

Sput
I answered above and by all means you do not need to participate in this discussion. Afterall, it is a difficult concept to swallow.

What is the MAIN intent of this thread? Obviously it is to somehow 'prove' that the unrighteous will be very much alive when God puts them into his torture chamber for eternity. What a SICK (and ungodly) belief!

God is Holy and because God is Holy one must be presented to God without blemish or spot and the only way is through Jesus Christ, God himself.
God must keep his word as he can not lie and so he must send people who reject him to Hell to ultimate torture in the lake of fire. This is not my opinion, but this is what the bible teaches. If you have a problem with this concept then I you need to ask yourself. Do I know Jesus? Do my relatives know Jesus, Do my friends know Jesus? The fact is that God has made it really simple to recieve eternal life and made it very difficult to get to hell.
As difficult as it is, many will be in Hell for all eternity..



The soul that sins (the lost) WILL DIE. THIS needs to be refuted before this thread can continue to the contrary.

Sput
I already did. Where you acused Jesus of telling a lie :o
Matt 10:27-28
27 "Whatever I tell you in the dark, speak in the light; and what you hear in the ear, preach on the housetops. 28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell

 

[jgredline]

If this is true, then presumably the scholars who make such claims can be identified. It certainly appears to the "common man" that Jesus' parables often referred to fictional situations (e.g. the 10 virgins parable). In order for the above argument to support jgredline's ultimate point, it would need to be shown that each of the parables is an historical account of an actual event.

An important point - it is not enough to say that these could be real historical accounts. This reason: Consider the story of the boy who cried wolf. This could be a real story or it could be a "fable". The fact that the account could be true does not mean that it must be true. This is an important distinction to bear in mind.

Drew
I stand by my original post.
If people at death simply lapse into a state of unconsciousness, then Jesus’ comments in this passage lose their meaning. The elaborate reinterpretation offered by the Watchtower Society and other cukts completely crosses the boundary of credulity.

Scholars have noted that whenever Jesus taught, he provided examples from real-life situations. For example, he spoke of a treasure buried in a field, a wedding feast, a man working in a vineyard, a woman sweeping her house, a shepherd watching his sheep, and a son returning home after squandering money.

Jesus never illustrated a teaching with a falsehood. This being the case, we must conclude that in Luke 16 Jesus is giving a teaching based on a “real-life†situationâ€â€involving conscious existence after death. Certainly the verse is in perfect harmony with other verses that teach conscious existence in the afterlife (see Luke 23:46; Acts 7:59; 2 Cor. 5:6–8; Phil. 1:21–23; 1 Thess. 4:13–17; Rev. 6:9–10).

Jesus never calls this real story a “parable,†and unlike parables, which never use real names, Jesus used a real name (Lazarus) of a person.

I do not expect to convince you of this truth for that is a function of the Holy Spirit. The fact that you can compare the Holy Scriptures to fairy tails shows me where your coming from and Further more How can you compare the boy who cried wolf and jack and the beanstalk to the Bible :-D LOL