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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Does the human soul consciously exist following death
- Thread starter jgredline
- Start date
O
Oscar3
Guest
:o Here we go again :-?
Smells like cults around here. Yep, just as I thought.
Luke 16:19–21
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
The rich man would have been on the cover of People magazine. Lazarus? No one would have even known his name. But in the economy of eternity, it is Lazarus who we know and the rich man who is nameless.
Luke 16:22
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried.
In Proverbs 22:2 it says the rich and the poor meet together before the Lord for He hath created them both. In death, these two men from the opposite ends of the social spectrum meet.
Luke 16:23
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
In hell the rich man finally saw “afar off.†Presently, the world says, “Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die,†because they only see what is in front of them. In hell they’ll finally see afar off; they’ll finally see the big picture of eternity. But it will be too late…
Luke 16:24, 25
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Although people mistakenly believe that, at best, when they die they will cease to exist, the fact is that not only will they continue to existâ€â€but they will be able to remember the good things they received on earthâ€â€the blessings God poured out upon them, the patience God showed to them, the manifold opportunities He gave them to turn to Him. Therefore, I suggest that one of the most horrendous aspects of hell is the memory people will have of the times they could have received the free gift of salvation, but chose to harden their hearts instead.
Luke 16:26
And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
The Hebrew word translated “hell†is sheol, which simply means “the place of the grave.†Everyone who died before Jesus was crucified to pay for the sins of mankind went to sheol, which was divided into two compartments, separated by a great divide. One side was filled with fire and torment. The other side was a place called “Abraham’s bosom†or “paradise.†Those who loved God would go to the paradise, or Abraham’s bosom side of sheol. The reason they couldn’t go directly to heaven is because the blood of Christ had not yet been shed. So paradise was simply a waiting room. And Abraham, the Father of Faith, the Friend of God, would greet them there. Those who did not believe in God went to the torment side of sheol. And although there was a great gulf between the two, as seen in this passage, those on both sides could call out to one anotherâ€â€which would make the flaming side even more hellish.
Ephesians 4:8–9 tells us that before Jesus ascended into heaven, He first descended into the lower parts of the earth and led those in Abraham’s bosom up to heaven. That is why Abraham’s bosom no longer exists today. Hell is not the final destiny of the unbeliever, but rather only a temporary holding tank until after the Great White Throne Judgment when he will be cast into Gehenna, or outer darkness (Revelation 20). Contrary to popular belief, hell is not going to be one big New Year’s Eve party. Gehenna is a place of heat without light, of eternal isolation, of interminable torment.
In the context of this chapter, the rich man’s sin was not that he hated Lazarus, but simply that he neglected him. The Bible says there are sins of commissionâ€â€things we do that are wrongâ€â€and sins of omissionâ€â€failing to do that which is right (James 4:17). There was a person in need at the rich man’s gate, but he didn’t offer to help. And that was his sinâ€â€indicative that because he cared not about the man at his gate, he had not the love of God in his heart (1 John 3:17).
Luke 16:27, 28
Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
“If Lazarus can’t come over here, send him back from the dead to tell my family that this place exists,†begged the rich man. I find it interesting that the rich man realized the power of a testimony. He didn’t say, “Send a theologian, a Bible teacher, or a commentary.†He said, “Send the one who, although he was poor and covered with sores, believed in God and is now in His presenceâ€â€that he may share his testimony.â€Â
If you haven’t already, you will hear Satan whisper in your ear, “You can’t witness because you don’t know enough about the Bible; you’re not that solid in your own walk; your understanding of theology is too elementary.†Not true! The most powerful thing you can share is your own testimony.
After he was cornered by the Pharisees, the once-blind man simply said, “I can’t answer all of your questions concerning the nature and Person of Jesus. But this I do know: Once I was blind, but now I see.†And none could deny it (John 9:25). So, too, the most powerful thing you can tell your unsaved parents or a lost neighbor is simply what the Lord has done for you.
Luke 16:29, 30
Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
“Even though they’re not listening to the Word, if someone comes back from the dead, surely they will listen and repent,†reasoned the rich man. In hell people finally realize the need to repentâ€â€not to believe in theology, but to repent from iniquity. Tragically, there will be those who believe in the existence of Jesus and in the inspiration of Scripture who will be lost eternally because of their refusal to repent, to change direction, to follow Jesus. The devils and demons believe, James tells us (2:19), but they’re not saved because their belief is based on intellectual acknowledgment rather than humble, personal repentance.
Luke 16:31
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
When Lazarus did indeed come back from the dead, were the religious leaders persuaded to listen and repent? On the contrary, they were determined to put him to death (John 12:10).
Living sumptuously with no compassion for people and no thought of eternity caused the rich man to end up in a real place called hell. On the basis of Job 3:17, the Jehovah’s Witnesses falsely propagate that when they die, wicked people simply cease to exist, that hell is nothing more than a scare tactic of Fundamentalist preachers. Turn them to Job 38, where God asks Job if he knows what lies beyondâ€â€the answer being “No†(verse 17).
The Christian Scientist takes it a step further when he says not only is there no hell, but there is no pain at all. Not so. Jesus said hell is real indeed. Becse God desires none should perish (2 Peter 3:9), He will not send anyone to hell. “In fact,†Jesus says, “if you insist upon going there, you will have to do so over My dead body.â€Â
In considering this passage, may we be renewed in our compassion for the lost and our commitment to share what the Lord has given us; may we be reminded of the big picture of eternity and the power of a testimony. In other words, in considering hell, may we become more mindful of heaven.
Courson, J.
Smells like cults around here. Yep, just as I thought.
Luke 16:19–21
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
The rich man would have been on the cover of People magazine. Lazarus? No one would have even known his name. But in the economy of eternity, it is Lazarus who we know and the rich man who is nameless.
Luke 16:22
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried.
In Proverbs 22:2 it says the rich and the poor meet together before the Lord for He hath created them both. In death, these two men from the opposite ends of the social spectrum meet.
Luke 16:23
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
In hell the rich man finally saw “afar off.†Presently, the world says, “Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die,†because they only see what is in front of them. In hell they’ll finally see afar off; they’ll finally see the big picture of eternity. But it will be too late…
Luke 16:24, 25
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Although people mistakenly believe that, at best, when they die they will cease to exist, the fact is that not only will they continue to existâ€â€but they will be able to remember the good things they received on earthâ€â€the blessings God poured out upon them, the patience God showed to them, the manifold opportunities He gave them to turn to Him. Therefore, I suggest that one of the most horrendous aspects of hell is the memory people will have of the times they could have received the free gift of salvation, but chose to harden their hearts instead.
Luke 16:26
And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
The Hebrew word translated “hell†is sheol, which simply means “the place of the grave.†Everyone who died before Jesus was crucified to pay for the sins of mankind went to sheol, which was divided into two compartments, separated by a great divide. One side was filled with fire and torment. The other side was a place called “Abraham’s bosom†or “paradise.†Those who loved God would go to the paradise, or Abraham’s bosom side of sheol. The reason they couldn’t go directly to heaven is because the blood of Christ had not yet been shed. So paradise was simply a waiting room. And Abraham, the Father of Faith, the Friend of God, would greet them there. Those who did not believe in God went to the torment side of sheol. And although there was a great gulf between the two, as seen in this passage, those on both sides could call out to one anotherâ€â€which would make the flaming side even more hellish.
Ephesians 4:8–9 tells us that before Jesus ascended into heaven, He first descended into the lower parts of the earth and led those in Abraham’s bosom up to heaven. That is why Abraham’s bosom no longer exists today. Hell is not the final destiny of the unbeliever, but rather only a temporary holding tank until after the Great White Throne Judgment when he will be cast into Gehenna, or outer darkness (Revelation 20). Contrary to popular belief, hell is not going to be one big New Year’s Eve party. Gehenna is a place of heat without light, of eternal isolation, of interminable torment.
In the context of this chapter, the rich man’s sin was not that he hated Lazarus, but simply that he neglected him. The Bible says there are sins of commissionâ€â€things we do that are wrongâ€â€and sins of omissionâ€â€failing to do that which is right (James 4:17). There was a person in need at the rich man’s gate, but he didn’t offer to help. And that was his sinâ€â€indicative that because he cared not about the man at his gate, he had not the love of God in his heart (1 John 3:17).
Luke 16:27, 28
Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
“If Lazarus can’t come over here, send him back from the dead to tell my family that this place exists,†begged the rich man. I find it interesting that the rich man realized the power of a testimony. He didn’t say, “Send a theologian, a Bible teacher, or a commentary.†He said, “Send the one who, although he was poor and covered with sores, believed in God and is now in His presenceâ€â€that he may share his testimony.â€Â
If you haven’t already, you will hear Satan whisper in your ear, “You can’t witness because you don’t know enough about the Bible; you’re not that solid in your own walk; your understanding of theology is too elementary.†Not true! The most powerful thing you can share is your own testimony.
After he was cornered by the Pharisees, the once-blind man simply said, “I can’t answer all of your questions concerning the nature and Person of Jesus. But this I do know: Once I was blind, but now I see.†And none could deny it (John 9:25). So, too, the most powerful thing you can tell your unsaved parents or a lost neighbor is simply what the Lord has done for you.
Luke 16:29, 30
Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
“Even though they’re not listening to the Word, if someone comes back from the dead, surely they will listen and repent,†reasoned the rich man. In hell people finally realize the need to repentâ€â€not to believe in theology, but to repent from iniquity. Tragically, there will be those who believe in the existence of Jesus and in the inspiration of Scripture who will be lost eternally because of their refusal to repent, to change direction, to follow Jesus. The devils and demons believe, James tells us (2:19), but they’re not saved because their belief is based on intellectual acknowledgment rather than humble, personal repentance.
Luke 16:31
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
When Lazarus did indeed come back from the dead, were the religious leaders persuaded to listen and repent? On the contrary, they were determined to put him to death (John 12:10).
Living sumptuously with no compassion for people and no thought of eternity caused the rich man to end up in a real place called hell. On the basis of Job 3:17, the Jehovah’s Witnesses falsely propagate that when they die, wicked people simply cease to exist, that hell is nothing more than a scare tactic of Fundamentalist preachers. Turn them to Job 38, where God asks Job if he knows what lies beyondâ€â€the answer being “No†(verse 17).
The Christian Scientist takes it a step further when he says not only is there no hell, but there is no pain at all. Not so. Jesus said hell is real indeed. Becse God desires none should perish (2 Peter 3:9), He will not send anyone to hell. “In fact,†Jesus says, “if you insist upon going there, you will have to do so over My dead body.â€Â
In considering this passage, may we be renewed in our compassion for the lost and our commitment to share what the Lord has given us; may we be reminded of the big picture of eternity and the power of a testimony. In other words, in considering hell, may we become more mindful of heaven.
Courson, J.
O
Oscar3
Guest
19–21. There was a certain rich man … and there was a certain beggar. This is the true account of a real history of two men, even though it is used much like a parable, i.e., to teach a particular lesson or to emphasize some principle. Some, however, contend that this is a parable saying that (1) the name Lazarus means “God helps†and is figurative or perhaps was intentionally chosen later because another Lazarus did come back from the dead; (2) it begins exactly as the preceding “parable†in Luke 16:1 (which incidentally is also not called a parable in the text); (3) it is used in parabolic fashion to prove a main point; (4) facts are presented in symbolic form; (5) it is in the context of other parables in Luke 15–18; (6) Christ would not have divulged such truths to unbelieving Pharisees; (7) the ability to see, hear, and communicate between heaven and hell after death is not possible; (8) the rich man would not have known Abraham and Lazarus by sight; and (9) in real life the names of rich men are given, while beggars’ names are unknown. Some of these points are well-taken, but none prove that this account was only a parable.
There are numerous arguments for this account being a real history. (1) Parables are hypothetical illustrations and never name specific individuals. Here not only Lazarus is named, but also Abraham (vss. 22–25, 29–30) and Moses (vs. 31). (2) Jesus said “there was a certain rich man.†Harry Ironside noted, “Was there, or was there not? He definitely declared that there was.†(3) Moses, Abraham, and the prophets are real people, whereas parables never refer to specific Old Testament saints. (4) Luke does not call this a parable as he does in thirteen other clear cases of parable so designated. (5) It is narrated like a real history. (6) Parables deal with the commonplace of what is known to be true to illustrate moral lessons, and come from natural life. This does not. (7) Hades is a reality, not a figure of speech. (8) There is no reason why Jesus could not have had in mind a particular case. He is describing what took place after death in the cases of two men for the moral profit of His hearers. (9) The conversation between the rich man and Abraham does not seem to lend itself to parabolic format. (10) Even a case history, as this is, could be used in parabolic fashion to teach a precise moral truth.
22. Abraham’s bosom. This is a designation for where Abraham was, taken variously as being heaven itself or some other intermediate place.
23–25. And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments. Between death and resurrection the immaterial part of man goes either to be with the Lord, if he is saved (II Cor 5:8; Phil 1:23), or into conscious torment as here. Resurrection reunites the body to the soul, and the state of existence continues to be either with Christ, or in the punishment of eternal duration (Mt 25:41, 46).
26. A great gulf fixed. Once a person passes from this life his probation is ended, and his eternal destiny is fixed. It has been appointed by God that once a man dies, then comes the judgment (Heb 9:27).
27–30. I have five brethren. The rich man’s name and town are probably omitted in Christ’s recounting of this history because of the embarrassment it might bring to his family that was still living.
31. If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Another Lazarus did return from the dead and the religious leaders sought only to kill him, though some believed through his testimony (Jn 12:9–11). Several additional teachings about hell are contained in this brief history. Memory and personality continue there even in the midst of untold anguish, misery, and suffering. There is no returning or sending back of messages from hell; thus, no reincarnation, nor spiritism as it is thought of by those who are thereby deceived.
KJV Bible commentary.
There are numerous arguments for this account being a real history. (1) Parables are hypothetical illustrations and never name specific individuals. Here not only Lazarus is named, but also Abraham (vss. 22–25, 29–30) and Moses (vs. 31). (2) Jesus said “there was a certain rich man.†Harry Ironside noted, “Was there, or was there not? He definitely declared that there was.†(3) Moses, Abraham, and the prophets are real people, whereas parables never refer to specific Old Testament saints. (4) Luke does not call this a parable as he does in thirteen other clear cases of parable so designated. (5) It is narrated like a real history. (6) Parables deal with the commonplace of what is known to be true to illustrate moral lessons, and come from natural life. This does not. (7) Hades is a reality, not a figure of speech. (8) There is no reason why Jesus could not have had in mind a particular case. He is describing what took place after death in the cases of two men for the moral profit of His hearers. (9) The conversation between the rich man and Abraham does not seem to lend itself to parabolic format. (10) Even a case history, as this is, could be used in parabolic fashion to teach a precise moral truth.
22. Abraham’s bosom. This is a designation for where Abraham was, taken variously as being heaven itself or some other intermediate place.
23–25. And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments. Between death and resurrection the immaterial part of man goes either to be with the Lord, if he is saved (II Cor 5:8; Phil 1:23), or into conscious torment as here. Resurrection reunites the body to the soul, and the state of existence continues to be either with Christ, or in the punishment of eternal duration (Mt 25:41, 46).
26. A great gulf fixed. Once a person passes from this life his probation is ended, and his eternal destiny is fixed. It has been appointed by God that once a man dies, then comes the judgment (Heb 9:27).
27–30. I have five brethren. The rich man’s name and town are probably omitted in Christ’s recounting of this history because of the embarrassment it might bring to his family that was still living.
31. If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Another Lazarus did return from the dead and the religious leaders sought only to kill him, though some believed through his testimony (Jn 12:9–11). Several additional teachings about hell are contained in this brief history. Memory and personality continue there even in the midst of untold anguish, misery, and suffering. There is no returning or sending back of messages from hell; thus, no reincarnation, nor spiritism as it is thought of by those who are thereby deceived.
KJV Bible commentary.
S
SputnikBoy
Guest
jgredline said:
Well, let’s see.
jgredline said:
Another human can kill another human. They can kill the body, the receptacle that houses the actual person.
jgredline said:
Which in this case belongs to God. The Greek word is psuche and is derived from ‘spirit’ or ‘breath’. At death the ‘spirit’ or the life force returns to God who gave it. Another human being cannot kill the 'psuche'.
jgredline said:
Exactly, jg. That’s God! And what can and WILL He do? He can and WILL most decidedly DESTROY both body and soul in hell!
Where does this say - or even hint - that God will torment body and soul in hell ...? How could He? ...the body (the receptacle or housing) and the soul (the life-force) have been destroyed. Even God can't ETERNALLY DESTROY in a literal sense.
S
SputnikBoy
Guest
jgredline said:
Well, jg, all you have to do is to use wisdom and scriptural savvy and I'll 'back-slap' you too! :D
S
SputnikBoy
Guest
OP: Does the human soul consciously exist following death?
No.
No.
C
CP_Mike
Guest
jgredline said:
Hi,
Thanks for your research. But please do not misquote me when Istated there are 2 places in scripture where some reference of 'conscious waiting' between death and resurrection happen.
My point was that 'soul' in the bible does not mean the 'essence of a person'. 'Soul' or Nephesh in Hebrew is primarily the physical life of the whole person. Body, soul spirit dualism came into being through contact with pagan Greek mythology and Babylonian culture as early as 250bc. Many of the early church fathers were originally trained in Greek philosophy. Tertullian and Origen mixed Greek concepts with biblical meanings and the original Hebrew ideas have been lost.
So, to state that 'soul' (the vital life) has a seperate conscious existence after death is nonsence biblically speaking. Remember, soul has various meanings throughout scripture and at each mention of 'Nephesh' and 'psuche' needs to interpreted not against othr scripture, but in context for the time it was written in.
jgredline
Member
SputnikBoy said:
The Christians should not fear the murderous rage of men. The worst that men can do is kill the body. Physical death is not the supreme tragedy for the Christian. To die is to be with Christ and thus far better. It is deliverance from sin, sorrow, sickness, suffering, and death; and it is translation into eternal glory. So the worst men can do is, in a real sense, the best thing that can happen to the child of God.
The Christians should not fear men but should have a reverential fear of Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. The Infinate Verb Destroy (απολεσαι) in this context it means to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell. 1f to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed Strong, J. (1996). The exhaustive concordance of the Bible : not annahialate. This is the greatest lossâ€â€eternal separation from God, from Christ, and from hope. Spiritual death is the loss that cannot be measured and the doom that should be avoided at all cost.
The words of Jesus in verse 28 evoke memories of the saintly John Knox, whose epitaph reads, “Here lies one who feared God so much that he never feared the face of any man.†You should read John Knox's stuff, you might learn something.
Further more; A decisive proof this that there is a hell for the body as well as the soul in the eternal world; in other words, that the torment that awaits the lost will have elements of suffering adapted to the material as well as the spiritual part of our nature, both of which, we are assured, will exist for ever. In the corresponding warning contained in Luke (Lu 12:4), Jesus calls His disciples “My friends,†as if He had felt that such sufferings constituted a bond of peculiar tenderness between Him and them.
Sput. Think about this for a minute..
jgredline
Member
Drew said:
LOL
I have offered you what the scriptures say. If you want a list of bible theologians who support my view, I Will need pages, upon pages to name them. we are talking of 2000 years of church history.
The theology that you guys hold through is a few hundred years old. :-D
S
Soma-Sight
Guest
This thread is another attempt of Satan to convince man that sinners have eternal life in hell.....
C
CP_Mike
Guest
jgredline said:
Hi JG,
Why do you not believe the OT Hebrews when they did not believe in an immortal soul?
Do you prefer the teachings of Plato?
You still did not reply to my post.
Drew
Member
You made a claim that scholars supported the position that parables describe real-life events (not just possible real life events). This would greatly support your postion. Please provide some evidence that there are scholars who specifically hold the view that you ascribe to them. Listing names is not enough - you need to provide quotes that clearly show that these scholars hold such views.jgredline said:
Otherwise, you should retract your claim.
S
Soma-Sight
Guest
Great post quibox!
S
SputnikBoy
Guest
Soma-Sight said:
Strange, isn't it? ...others say the very same thing about those who try to convince man that sinners are annihilated in 'hell'.
On the one hand we have a doctrine 'from the pits of hell' that supports the final action of a humane God. On the other hand we have a doctrine 'from the pits of hell' that supports the final action of a tyrant God.
If I had no Bible to support the former doctrine, my God-given reasoning skills and that which goes against the very fiber of my being would cause me to reject the latter. One might quite naturally assume that the 'eternal torment' God would be rattling the conscience of every living Christian soul.
But it isn't. Instead, many Christians actually embrace this wicked concept and actually abhor the VERY NOTION that God may indeed 'dispose' of the lost humanely. Why do they require more ...?
They will not even give the 'annihilationists' the benefit of the doubt even when scriptures ARE given that very well may support the 'annihilation' stand. They will not even give them the benefit of the doubt! Instead ...they put their fingers in their ears and outright reject them and many go as far as to say that it's a doctrine 'from the pits of hell'. Again ...many go as far as to say that a doctrine that supports a humane God is a doctrine 'from the pits of hell' ...!
The 'traditionalist' DON'T WANT to believe anything other than what has been ingrained into them since as far back as they can remember. Why? Why does 'annihilation' of the lost seem to BOTHER them so ...? ...security in a long held belief? ...one's own vindictive nature and the belief that one should get their 'just deserts' ...? ...the belief that 'hell' is for anybody else but them ...?
What does this say about traditionalist Christianity? ...I mean ...REALLY?
jgredline
Member
Drew said:
Drew
Lets start with you. First of all don't take me out of context and don't put words in my mouth. I never said parables plural, I was only speaking of Luke 16.
19–21. There was a certain rich man … and there was a certain beggar. This is the true account of a real history of two men, even though it is used much like a parable, i.e., to teach a particular lesson or to emphasize some principle. Some, however, contend that this is a parable saying that (1) the name Lazarus means “God helps†and is figurative or perhaps was intentionally chosen later because another Lazarus did come back from the dead; (2) it begins exactly as the preceding “parable†in Luke 16:1 (which incidentally is also not called a parable in the text); (3) it is used in parabolic fashion to prove a main point; (4) facts are presented in symbolic form; (5) it is in the context of other parables in Luke 15–18; (6) Christ would not have divulged such truths to unbelieving Pharisees; (7) the ability to see, hear, and communicate between heaven and hell after death is not possible; (8) the rich man would not have known Abraham and Lazarus by sight; and (9) in real life the names of rich men are given, while beggars’ names are unknown. Some of these points are well-taken, but none prove that this account was only a parable.
KJV Bible commentary. Thanks Oscar
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: and there was a certain beggar name Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores (Luk 16:19-21).
So we have a very vast contrast of lifestyles. A rich man fairing sumptuously everyday, and there at his gate a poor beggar covered with sores, begging and seeking to eat the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table and dogs coming and licking his sores. Some have said that this is a parable. Jesus didn't say it was a parable. I do not think it was a parable. For in all of the parables never was a person named. In this story the person is named, Lazarus, the poor man. The rich man isn't named. Someone called him Divvies, but we don't know that.
Chuck Smith
1. (19-21) Lazarus and the rich man on earth.
"There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores."
a. There was a certain rich man: Significantly, Jesus does not present this story as a parable, and in no other parable does Jesus actually name an individual (as the poor man is named here). We have every reason to believe that Jesus is giving us an actual "case history," that He would know because He is the man from heaven.
David Guzik
Here are 5 Other theologians who say this was no parable. I could name more if you like.
C.I. Scolfield
G. Campbell Morgan
Jonathan Edwards
John Wesley
Adam Clark
here are some websites for you to look at and weep.
http://www.bible.ca/su-hades-luke16.htm
http://home.flash.net/~thinkman/articles/luke16.htm
http://www.scripturessay.com/q7.html
S
SputnikBoy
Guest
jgredline said:
I'm sorry, jg, but are the above accounts you gave intended to support 'our' case on this issue or 'yours' ...? I wouldn't want any of the above people to be representing me in court.
Have you totally ignored the other posts that have presented literature that EXPLAIN quite graphically and precisely what the PARABLE of the Rich Man & Lazarus is all about? That it was all based on a Hebrew fable of the day? How Jesus cleverly wove that fable into a message of truth aimed at the Pharisees? Or are these explanations ignored by the traditionalists because they mess up their favorite passage of scripture that appears to support their 'eternal torment' doctrine?
And what about the Strong's Concordance (that I believe YOU use as 'support' at times) that refers to one definition of the names 'Lazarus' (the poor man) and 'Dives' (the rich man) as being IMAGINARY ...?
Do you refute the expanations previously given ...explanations of the parable as given by Hebrew scholars and historians? Refute them if you must (from an equally knowledgable source) but please don't ignore them.